Overmanaging

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  • imapotato
    Banned
    • Jun 2005
    • 824

    #1

    Overmanaging

    When will a manger come along and be the Anti-Larussa?

    Tonight Slowley is pulled in the 8th with a no hitter pending and Rauch almost blows it

    Slowey pitched the malevolent number.....106 pitches!!!

    ludicrous...some manager needs to come alomg and say the hell with PH for the pitcher in the 6th, or putting in a lefty to face one lefty hitter and start telling pitchers to take batting practice and pitch every 4th game.
  • Blzer
    Resident film pundit
    • Mar 2004
    • 42520

    #2
    Re: Overmanaging

    There are a lot of things I despise about managers and substitutions.

    1) Closers and saves. There's a huge distinction between a closer to close the game and a closer to save the game. I don't believe in a manager automatically bringing in their closer in a save situation simply because it's a save situation. I mean sure, the fans love it and we enjoy the recognition of our closer, and for the most part they are the most dominating short-term pitcher in the bullpen. But there are times when they just don't have it. There are times where they miss their spots, hang pitches, get in trouble, etc. To leave them in just so they can add a number to their statistics is ridiculous to me. Gone are the old days of Dennis Eckersley where you see three innings of closure, and it wasn't just for a ridiculous number.

    2) Starters and wins. Same situation... try and get them to last at least five innings for the possibility that you can get grant them a win. They're sitting at 4.1 innings and get themselves into so big of a jam that they probably won't even get the win anyway, so why are they leaving them in there? Sure, starters get steamed if they can't last that long themselves, let alone managers not even giving them that chance. But if it's not your night, you don't deserve the win anyway.

    3) Specialty pitchers/match-ups. I do believe that there is a true benefit here, but I think this gets far too out of hand at times. Let me tell you about a Giants-Dodgers game earlier this year in which Torre had four pitchers throw in one inning, and not a single hit was recorded, let alone a single run. Then you have the left-handed pitchers who face the one batter and then leaves the game. Again, there may be a benefit, but congratulations on blowing seven minutes of downtime for just one at-bat, and there still isn't a guarantee that the pitcher will come through (or at least do better than the preceding pitcher). Maybe I'm more against it because they always do this to two players I like very much, Bonds and Heyward. But perhaps I just don't like the downtime either.

    4) Pitch counts. Throw away the damn counter. If he is tired or showing signs of slowing up, pull him out. Gone are the days where pitchers throw 150+ pitches (granted, that was long ago). The truth is that pitchers can throw this much and every fourth day, but they just are not conditioned this way. Obviously this goes lower than the majors, but Nolan Ryan is advocating this for his starters. This is much more plausible than asking relievers to go out at least every other day and throw 20+ pitches IMO. I still remember the day I threw 127 pitches back when I was like 16 years old, and I felt like it was nothing. My coach didn't want to pull me because I was doing well (people battled at the plate though, hence the high count). These pitchers aren't babies, and I don't think they recognize that pitchers threw a lot before the game started and a lot between innings as well, but they don't seem to track those for whatever reason. It's just befuddling to me.


    And I agree about pitchers and not being able to hit. I don't know what's up with that. Obviously they weren't brought up in the majors because of their hitting ability therefore you don't expect it, but they take batting practice routinely and they face pitching every time they start (the NL guys, at least). Hell, when they were kids and their dads were coaching them, they were the best pitchers, hitters, and shortstops all at the same time. This normally transgresses to high school ball where they still get to hit, etc. I don't know how they look as awful as they do in the majors and are completely unsuccessful.
    Last edited by Blzer; 08-16-2010, 01:57 AM.
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    • Kruza
      Mainstream Outlaw
      • Jul 2002
      • 6285

      #3
      Re: Overmanaging

      Originally posted by imapotato
      When will a manger come along and be the Anti-Larussa?

      Tonight Slowley is pulled in the 8th with a no hitter pending and Rauch almost blows it

      Slowey pitched the malevolent number.....106 pitches!!!

      ludicrous...some manager needs to come alomg and say the hell with PH for the pitcher in the 6th, or putting in a lefty to face one lefty hitter and start telling pitchers to take batting practice and pitch every 4th game.

      I usually agree with managers overmanaging for every little reason one can imagine, but not for the Slowey situation. Slowey was just coming off a serious elbow injury before making his start, plus he showed signs of fatigue before being pulled. Ron Gardenhire made the right decision to pull Slowey when he did.

      Kruza

      Comment

      • ryan36
        7 dirty words...
        • Feb 2003
        • 10139

        #4
        Re: Overmanaging

        I think the days of overmanaging were cemented when Grady Little didn't pull Pedro.

        As for a 3 inning reliever, the last one was Gossage. Eckersley was the first one inning and that's it guy. Actually , on the show Costas does on MLB network, he had them all there, Gossage, Eck, Fingers, and Sutter...it was a great episode

        Comment

        • Blzer
          Resident film pundit
          • Mar 2004
          • 42520

          #5
          Re: Overmanaging

          Originally posted by ryan36
          I think the days of overmanaging were cemented when Grady Little didn't pull Pedro.

          As for a 3 inning reliever, the last one was Gossage. Eckersley was the first one inning and that's it guy. Actually , on the show Costas does on MLB network, he had them all there, Gossage, Eck, Fingers, and Sutter...it was a great episode
          Oops, that's what I get for posting without researching. I supposed I merely misremembered, that's all.

          I actually am happy though when guys like Rivera and Wilson get four or five out saves on occasion. It shows that it's not just all for the cheap number, but you notice they never go for the specialists in the ninth inning either for one reason only.
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          • Blzer
            Resident film pundit
            • Mar 2004
            • 42520

            #6
            Re: Overmanaging

            Originally posted by Kruza
            I usually agree with managers overmanaging for every little reason one can imagine, but not for the Slowey situation. Slowey was just coming off a serious elbow injury before making his start, plus he showed signs of fatigue before being pulled. Ron Gardenhire made the right decision to pull Slowey when he did.

            Kruza
            I forgot to actually respond to imapotato's post and sort of say the same thing. I mean you have to realize that Gardenhire probably didn't just pull him without an internal discussion first. The question as to whether he could continue for one more inning more than likely crossed Slowey first, who I imagine couldn't last any longer.

            As I said in my first post, don't look at the pitch count and let the pitcher decide when he can't last any longer. Now I don't mean this in the equivalent as "eat till you're stuffed," because you also don't want to risk injury by going out there up to the actual point of injury. But if you can handle another twenty pitches (plus five in warm-ups, mind you), I would keep him out there with two relievers getting ready in the pen.
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            • SPTO
              binging
              • Feb 2003
              • 68046

              #7
              Re: Overmanaging

              Well we have a manager here in Toronto who barely lifts a finger to do anything :wink:

              Actually even he has done some overmanaging but that's only to do with the relievers as he doesn't trust most of them.
              Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

              "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

              Comment

              • ryan36
                7 dirty words...
                • Feb 2003
                • 10139

                #8
                Re: Overmanaging

                yeah Cito Gaston and Mike Hargrove are both "put the same 9 out there" type guys and they had their success right after each other. Maybe baseball really has changed that much.

                Comment

                • imapotato
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2005
                  • 824

                  #9
                  Re: Overmanaging

                  I like Cito's managing style, and yes, he doesn't trust relievers

                  On the injury discussion, I think it has been proven that pitch counts, resting etc. does not mean injuries will not happen. You may coddle a guy and he blows his arm out....or a guy may be like Halladay and never suffer.

                  Of course you have to see what your strengths are, if you have 4 great starters a ? for 5th SP and the bullpen of the Royals....let the starter throw CGs with 140 pitches...what do you have to lose? AN investment? Look at the DL, most pitchers on the DL are the relievers who throw 30 pitches every 3 days.

                  What's more harmful?

                  Comment

                  • ImTellinTim
                    YNWA
                    • Sep 2006
                    • 33028

                    #10
                    Re: Overmanaging

                    Originally posted by imapotato
                    When will a manger come along and be the Anti-Larussa?

                    Tonight Slowley is pulled in the 8th with a no hitter pending and Rauch almost blows it

                    Slowey pitched the malevolent number.....106 pitches!!!

                    ludicrous...some manager needs to come alomg and say the hell with PH for the pitcher in the 6th, or putting in a lefty to face one lefty hitter and start telling pitchers to take batting practice and pitch every 4th game.
                    What you fail to mention is that Slowey missed his last start with slight tendinitis in his elbow. The Twins need him down the stretch, as they are in a pennant race. It was the right decision, and frankly, I'm surprised Gardy pulled him because he tends to mismange the game. He was slightly wild all night with 4 walks and had just hit a batter in the 7th. I'll trade a healthy starter for a no-hit bid any day given the fact that our next options are ****.
                    Last edited by ImTellinTim; 08-17-2010, 10:59 PM.

                    Comment

                    • NYJets
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 18637

                      #11
                      Re: Overmanaging

                      Originally posted by Blzer
                      4) Pitch counts. Throw away the damn counter. If he is tired or showing signs of slowing up, pull him out. Gone are the days where pitchers throw 150+ pitches (granted, that was long ago). The truth is that pitchers can throw this much and every fourth day, but they just are not conditioned this way. Obviously this goes lower than the majors, but Nolan Ryan is advocating this for his starters. This is much more plausible than asking relievers to go out at least every other day and throw 20+ pitches IMO. I still remember the day I threw 127 pitches back when I was like 16 years old, and I felt like it was nothing. My coach didn't want to pull me because I was doing well (people battled at the plate though, hence the high count). These pitchers aren't babies, and I don't think they recognize that pitchers threw a lot before the game started and a lot between innings as well, but they don't seem to track those for whatever reason. It's just befuddling to me.


                      And I agree about pitchers and not being able to hit. I don't know what's up with that. Obviously they weren't brought up in the majors because of their hitting ability therefore you don't expect it, but they take batting practice routinely and they face pitching every time they start (the NL guys, at least). Hell, when they were kids and their dads were coaching them, they were the best pitchers, hitters, and shortstops all at the same time. This normally transgresses to high school ball where they still get to hit, etc. I don't know how they look as awful as they do in the majors and are completely unsuccessful.
                      Warmup pitches between innings, before games, and between starts aren't counted because they are constants. You get 8 pitches between innings I believe, and before games and on throw days pitchers generally stick to a routine. So the only number that's important to count is the number of pitches during the game, because that changes.

                      I think it's important to protect arms. I'm sure there's still a lot we need to learn about the right way to do that, so I get the criticism towards being a slave to the 100 pitch number, but I don't think the answer is to just let them pitch until they are too tired to pitch anymore either. Just because there are guys from back in the day who pitched 300 innings a year and would throw 150 pitches a start, doesn't mean that it's safe. For every guy we hear of who was a great pitcher with a huge workload, there are lots of guys who ruined their arms. We just don't hear about them anymore.

                      As for pitchers hitting, there's just a huge difference between college and below, and MLB. Every player in the minor leagues was a great player in high school and/or college. Most of them will never be able to hit at a major league level. And that's with almost all their focus being on hitting, with some on defense as well. Pitchers don't work on their hitting much, and they only get to hit once every 5 days. And that includes the minor leagues. Most players take a few years of 500+ at bats per year of development in the minors before they are ready. Pitchers never get that.

                      I agree completely with your first 3 points.
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                      Comment

                      • Blzer
                        Resident film pundit
                        • Mar 2004
                        • 42520

                        #12
                        Re: Overmanaging

                        Originally posted by NYJets
                        Warmup pitches between innings, before games, and between starts aren't counted because they are constants. You get 8 pitches between innings I believe, and before games and on throw days pitchers generally stick to a routine. So the only number that's important to count is the number of pitches during the game, because that changes.
                        I think it's eight pitches when you first come into the game and five pitches between innings. I could be wrong on that though.

                        All that I'm saying is if you throw 100 pitches in eight innings, you really threw like 150 pitches in eight innings. Obviously warm up pitches aren't always 100% effort, but I wouldn't say they are anywhere under 90% for consistency purposes. I just don't like to see the century mark as a means to take someone out. I can understand possibly being aware that a pitcher may be reaching a point where he starts missing spots or something, but there was a time when the 100 pitches didn't matter. Pitchers unfortunately aren't conditioned the same way now that they used to be, and it starts to wear on a mediocre bullpen.

                        As for pitchers hitting, there's just a huge difference between college and below, and MLB. Every player in the minor leagues was a great player in high school and/or college. Most of them will never be able to hit at a major league level. And that's with almost all their focus being on hitting, with some on defense as well. Pitchers don't work on their hitting much, and they only get to hit once every 5 days. And that includes the minor leagues. Most players take a few years of 500+ at bats per year of development in the minors before they are ready. Pitchers never get that.
                        They also only get to pitch once every five days.

                        I get that, but I just don't get why they appear so unnatural. There are some pitchers who take healthy cuts and just can't direct the knob to the ball, there are some who go all out and are fortunate to put the bat on the ball, and others just look pitiful, like it's the first time they've touched a bat in their lives... like they don't even know which side of the bat is good.

                        I think I just wish that pitchers were better at hitting, because hey... that's part of winning ball games. They are a player in a lineup of nine just like the #3 hitter is. While their roles and priorities are vastly different, they can both contribute the exact same amount.
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                        • Chip Douglass
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Dec 2005
                          • 12256

                          #13
                          Re: Overmanaging

                          Overmanaging 101 is probably the whole idea of "batting orders."

                          This is actually one of those instances where the traditional crowd is making things 100 times more complicated than they should be by insisting upon an algorithmic batting order, whereas the sabermetrics' crowd says, "Make sure to get your best players the most at-bats; it's not that complicated."
                          I write things on the Internet.

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                          • tyler289
                            MVP
                            • Jul 2006
                            • 2933

                            #14
                            Re: Overmanaging

                            To Jim Riggleman, double switches are like crack.

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                            • snepp
                              We'll waste him too.
                              • Apr 2003
                              • 10007

                              #15
                              Re: Overmanaging

                              One of my favorites is when a double switch gets pulled in the 5th or 6th inning, then it comes back to bite them in the *** at the end of the game.
                              Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

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