Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

[Speedy]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

My opinion based on nothing but my own thoughts is: nowhere else.

My real solution is something that can't be undone and that's killing overexpansion.

So your solution is...contraction or simply let the team figure out a way to draw fans?

[av7]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

We'll see what a new stadium does for the Marlins. If the Rays can see what happens (good or bad) then they can make their own judgement on if staying is a wise decision or not.

[SPTO]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

I saw this earlier today and they have a legit reason to gripe. I bet if this team was in Montreal people would be filling up the Big O and that was a HORRIBLE stadium.

Anyways I seem to recall an article written before this year or last by Peter Gammons saying that Connecticut would be a good place to put the Rays.

[CMH]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

So your solution is...contraction or simply let the team figure out a way to draw fans?

Yea, I was vague because I don't think there's a real solution.

I doubt the league will consider contraction any time soon since its been making so much money. Before it even thinks about contraction, it'll find a buyer that is willing to move somewhere else even if the market isn't much better than Tampa. All of those cities you mentioned sound nice, but are they really that much bigger of a market? I sense more of the same.

I think these teams are stuck.

The idea of building a new stadium and drawing fans is mostly a farce. The increase in attendance is a short spark plug that is never sustainable unless the market allows for it.

It might be time to consider other things when evaluating why certain markets attract fans.

Top 10 Teams in Attendance with my opinion on the major reason they draw so many fans (top reason only):

1. Yankees - Wins.
2. Philadelphia - Wins.
3. LA Dodgers - Tradition.
4. St. Louis - Tradition.
5. LA Angels - Wins.
6. Minnesota - New Ballpark.
7. Chicago Cubs - Tradition
8. Boston - Tradition
9. San Francisco - Wins.
10. Colorado - Wins.

By the way, those are also the only teams averaging over 35k fans a game.

Bottom 10 Teams and the biggest draw they have:

21. Cincinnati - Wins
22. Tampa Bay - Wins
23. Washington - Wins
24. Baltimore - Wins
25. Kansas City - Wins
26. Toronto - Wins
27. Pittsburgh - Wins
28. Florida - Wins
29. Oakland - Wins
30. Cleveland - Wins

My point?

None of the bottom teams can rely on tradition to attract fans. There are only four teams (possibly five if you want to argue that the Yankees are a tradition team more so than a wins team to attract fans) that I can confidently say attract fans because of their loyalty. (Another factor is it being the 'it' thing. People today more so than yesterday are attracted to the wow factor of attending. The Dodgers might get an LA boost while the Cubs get a Wrigley Field boost).

But, those bottom teams aren't winning except for Florida and Tampa Bay. When Cleveland was winning they sold out every year. Cincinnati hasn't experienced a long enough run of wins to attract fans so they are on hold at this point. When Baltimore was winning, they sold out or nearly did every year (they also had Cal Ripken chasing a record).

Basically, the two anomalies in the bottom attendance teams both play in Florida despite being the only two teams on that list to attend two World Series in the past 10 years (winning one).

I'm just showing what I see. I don't know what it means really.

[SPTO]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

I'll take some exception on the "wins" aspect for the Blue Jays though that's a huge reason why they're not drawing well. Up til the mid 2000s the team was getting good attendance but the combination of a ballpark that's outlived its aesthetic usefulness, bad park experience and terrible mismanagement of the team during the JP Ricciard years has turned people off to the point that it's going to take a real strong contending year to get the fans back.

There's actually a pretty strong and hardcore fanbase in Toronto that lives and dies with the team. The figure thrown around is about 15-20k. Toronto is unfortunately a bit of a frontrunner/won't go unless it's trendy type of town (with the exception of the Leafs) Nonetheless there's a baseball tradition here and there are dedicated fans.

I just don't get that sense with the Rays and Marlins. They both barely draw flies and if the Rays were in a situation like Toronto (where it's "stuck in the middle with you"-ville) i'm thinking the attendance would be worse. Can anyone point to a strong but small rabid fanbase for either of the Florida teams?

[CMH]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

I'll take some exception on the "wins" aspect for the Blue Jays though that's a huge reason why they're not drawing well. Up til the mid 2000s the team was getting good attendance but the combination of a ballpark that's outlived its aesthetic usefulness, bad park experience and terrible mismanagement of the team during the JP Ricciard years has turned people off to the point that it's going to take a real strong contending year to get the fans back.

There's actually a pretty strong and hardcore fanbase in Toronto that lives and dies with the team. The figure thrown around is about 15-20k. Toronto is unfortunately a bit of a frontrunner/won't go unless it's trendy type of town (with the exception of the Leafs) Nonetheless there's a baseball tradition here and there are dedicated fans.

I just don't get that sense with the Rays and Marlins. They both barely draw flies and if the Rays were in a situation like Toronto (where it's "stuck in the middle with you"-ville) i'm thinking the attendance would be worse. Can anyone point to a strong but small rabid fanbase for either of the Florida teams?

I don't mean it to insult anyone. My point really is that those teams aren't drawing fans because they aren't winning games. Whereas Boston, Chicago and St. Louis could play poorly and likely still sell-out. Wins aren't necessarily driving attendance.

I might be biased on the Yankees side because I remember when they weren't drawing fans, but then again, most of the Yankees fan base has a delusional sense of performance because they equate championships only as success.

Anyway, all of those teams have dedicated fan bases which is why wins will bring them back. People like watching winning teams. Florida doesn't seem to have that.

[bjf1377]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

Well, at least the Rays will have a crowd for tomorrow's game. It takes giving away 20k tickets for free, but a crowd is a crowd, lol

[Sportsforever]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

Put a 3rd team in NY.

This would be awesome...put them in Brooklyn and build a retro looking park like Ebbets. I'd be a fan immediately.

[Chrisksaint]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

We'll see what a new stadium does for the Marlins. If the Rays can see what happens (good or bad) then they can make their own judgement on if staying is a wise decision or not.

It'll help initially but in the long run it won't increase the number of fans that much

[TarHeelMan]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

YP, what markets do you think this franchise would succeed in? Personally, I believe the biggest markets "untapped" are:

**Raleigh, NC: the NHL put a team there that has thrived)
**Omaha, NE: since the college WS is there, it makes sense to put a MLB team there)

Not necessarily. The Canes only really survived here because of the Stanley Cup run in 2006. But the owner is already talking about wanting to sell a portion of the team. Plus Raleigh is full of transplants, all holding allegiances to other teams. You always see a bunch of Yankees, Mets, Red Sox licensed plates around. It would be interesting in that the Rays AAA team plays in Durham which is the next city over.

This would be awesome...put them in Brooklyn and build a retro looking park like Ebbets. I'd be a fan immediately.

LOL, you must not have seen Citi Field. Everything about that outside, even the rotunda once you enter, is all a retro version of Ebbets Field.

[Sportsforever]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

Not necessarily. The Canes only really survived here because of the Stanley Cup run in 2006. But the owner is already talking about wanting to sell a portion of the team. Plus Raleigh is full of transplants, all holding allegiances to other teams. You always see a bunch of Yankees, Mets, Red Sox licensed plates around. It would be interesting in that the Rays AAA team plays in Durham which is the next city over.



LOL, you must not have seen Citi Field. Everything about that outside, even the rotunda once you enter, is all a retro version of Ebbets Field.

I had heard that would be the case, and it may look like it from the outside, but the playing field looks nothing like it. I would love a replica of Ebbets on the inside, complete with a Schaefer Beer sign in RF with a car dealership across the street!

[rsox]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

If they were to put another team in New York it would probably be in Buffalo (which has been considered for expansion in the past).
Tennesee could probably support a team.

Tropicana Field was built to be used as a lure to attract a MLB team back before new "retro" stadiums were all the rage. It didn't work out and the place was basically built for nothing (though i believe the Lightning played hockey there for a few years). It was a huge mistake to build it in the first place and the Rays basically got the shaft and were stuck playing there (similar to what happend to the Expos with Olympic Stadium).It took the Marlins some time to get approval for a new stadium, if the Rays can stay the coarse for a while longer i think they will eventually get a new stadium.

[ImTellinTim]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

If they were to put another team in New York it would probably be in Buffalo (which has been considered for expansion in the past).
Tennesee could probably support a team.

Tropicana Field was built to be used as a lure to attract a MLB team back before new "retro" stadiums were all the rage. It didn't work out and the place was basically built for nothing (though i believe the Lightning played hockey there for a few years). It was a huge mistake to build it in the first place and the Rays basically got the shaft and were stuck playing there (similar to what happend to the Expos with Olympic Stadium).It took the Marlins some time to get approval for a new stadium, if the Rays can stay the coarse for a while longer i think they will eventually get a new stadium.

Yes, and it was named the Thunderdome.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

When your Cy Young quality pitcher and your MVP quality position player are voicing actual frustration in the attendance numbers, then that's a very sad situation. This just seems like a terrible situation for a player to be in. They're not going to pay you, and people aren't going to watch you, so what are you doing there?

[Speedy]

Re: Rays cutting payroll, despite success?

Not necessarily. The Canes only really survived here because of the Stanley Cup run in 2006. But the owner is already talking about wanting to sell a portion of the team. Plus Raleigh is full of transplants, all holding allegiances to other teams. You always see a bunch of Yankees, Mets, Red Sox licensed plates around. It would be interesting in that the Rays AAA team plays in Durham which is the next city over.

That's the point though...The Rays are winning and nobody is showing up. The Canes won in '06 and had a great run in '08 (including the amazing game 7 final against New Jersey...I never jumped so high from off my couch in my life) and had that building packed. I do believe if the Rays have continued success that Raleigh would be a good place, especially being that the AAA team is there and has had very good attendance marks the past few years.

At least locally here in Winston-Salem, most of us are Braves fans and even so, the TV companies include the Atlanta-local channel Peachtree TV for us to soley watch the Braves games (nothing else otherwise, as it's blank unless a game is on); I would probably make the travel a few times a year if an MLB team was here in NC.