Did anyone notice...

[Knight165]

Re: Did anyone notice...

Definitely not, but it's a huge advantage and unless they have moron's running their club, it should mean success most of the time or even almost all of the time.

I imagine for Yankee fans, every year it's World Series Championship or it's a failure. I think for most other teams, it's a success when your team makes the playoffs.



I would expect nothing less if I was a fan (or even not as a fan). Which is why, IMO, baseball desperately needs a salary cap. How can you expect parity and fairness when the field is not playing with the same deck of cards.

You can point and say, look at the Rays, they've competed for a few years, but they won't maintain it. They've already said they have to cut their salary by 1/3 ($75 to $50M) next year. No way could they absorb an AJ Burnett contract or Carl Pavano contract. They'd be doomed spending 20% of their budget on a bust.

Most teams can probbaly really compete 3 or 4 out of every 10 years. The other years are spent rebuilding or suffering from mistakes. The upper echelon of spenders should compete every or almost every year.

No parity?
If these payroll numbers are correct...in the playoffs......
You've got 3 teams with payroll in the top 10....3 teams with payroll in the middle 10 and 2 team with payroll from the bottom up.
How much more parity do you need than that?!

Team Payroll
Yankees $206,333,389
Red Sox 162,747,333
Cubs 146,859,000
Phillies 141,927,381
Mets 132,701,445
Tigers 122,864,929
White Sox 108,273,197
Angels 105,013,667
Mariners 98,376,667
Giants 97,828,833
Twins 97,559,167
Dodgers 94,945,517
Cardinals 93,540,753
Astros 92,355,500
Braves 84,423,667
Rockies 84,227,000
Orioles 81,612,500
Brewers 81,108,279
Reds 72,386,544
Royals 72,267,710
Rays 71,923,471
Blue Jays 62,689,357
Nationals 61,425,000
Indians 61,203,967
D-Backs 60,718,167
Marlins 55,641,500
Rangers 55,250,545
Athletics 51,654,900
Padres 37,799,300
Pirates 34,943,000



M.K.
Knight165

[WazzuRC]

Re: Did anyone notice...

No parity?
If these payroll numbers are correct...in the playoffs......
You've got 3 teams with payroll in the top 10....3 teams with payroll in the middle 10 and 2 team with payroll from the bottom up.
How much more parity do you need than that?!

I understand that there is parity and there will always be parity on some form. I think a bigger issue is that teams like the Yanks and Mets can afford to sign a guy like Burnett and if he doesn't pan out, it doesn't hurt the franchise as much as it would a team like the Twins, Indians, Tampa, etc. Most teams can't take those types of risks, even if there is a chance for a big reward.

[rsox]

Re: Did anyone notice...

Both Burnett and Zito have been horrendous for most of the last 2 months and both are probably lucky to be on either teams post-season rosters. Burnett went 1-7 after aug 1st and Zito is 2-10 since the All-Star break.

I think Girardi will try and do what the Yankees did last year and that is try to ride 3 starters thru the playoffs. If the Giants advance or decide to use a 4th starter in the LDS i believe it has already been said it will be Madison Bumgarner who gets the nod.

The fact that these guys are making a ton of money does not matter at this point. During the season most times salary will dictate how a player is used but in the playoffs--especially a short series you can't afford to let those guys go out and get lit up early on.

[Knight165]

Re: Did anyone notice...

I understand that there is parity and there will always be parity on some form. I think a bigger issue is that teams like the Yanks and Mets can afford to sign a guy like Burnett and if he doesn't pan out, it doesn't hurt the franchise as much as it would a team like the Twins, Indians, Tampa, etc. Most teams can't take those types of risks, even if there is a chance for a big reward.

Wazzu;

The Mets definitely cannot absorb bad contracts. It's actually been very prevalent ....especially this year.
Luis Castillo....the F.O. says they can't just let him go to sign another 2B...and it's hurt us for the last two seasons.
SP.....Oliver Perez.....there is no doubt that his contract kept us from going after another SP before this season started.
Really, there is only one team in the league that can do that....and that's the Yankees. But as stated...they are in there own world. But also...even so, with just one World Championship in the last 10 years(this year TBD)....it doesn't mean as much as it's made out to be.

This thread is nonsense from the start....as the OP just grabs at any straw every chance he gets to knock baseball.
He should be happy with football, but for whatever reason....I think he's a bit envious of baseball(as a sport).
I can't think of any other reason for his continuous habit of posting this way.

M.K.
Knight165

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Did anyone notice...

I love baseball. Always have. I'll always watch it, no matter how much I complain about it. I just hate what it's become. Where teams can spend millions upon millions on mediocre players, just for "depth" purposes, while other teams can't even afford their own players.

Nobody thought Zito's contract made sense. Was anybody else aside from the Giants offering him near that? It was a WTF moment. He's been mediocre since his Cy Young season. Since going to San Fran, he has been terrible, downright embarrassing at times. He's had like one decent stretch in the entire time he's been there, and it was only for like three months of a season. He was kicked out of the rotation at one point. And now he's not even a starting pitcher in the playoffs. Now the Giants are paying him multi-millions for 7 years.

Burnett was brought on to be a number 2 starter. At over 80 million dollars. And now he's not even in the rotation. Do the Yankees care? No, because they got one World Series out of him. They can just throw a pile of cash to a guy, and then not care what happens after they get what they want.

This all goes back to that ridiculous off season where A-Rod was trying to get an astronomical contract out of the Yankees, and while not getting the one he wanted, got one anyways. Here you have ONE player, who isn't even the best at his position in the league, and is aging, having more money than you can imagine committed to him, until he's in his 40's. When he's in his 40's and near useless as a baseball player, he'll be making over 20 million dollars a year. Because that's what baseball allows. That's an incredibly messed up system.

It's not right that one team has a monopoly over free agency. They can have literally any player they want, since they can offer what no other team can in terms of money, prestige, winning, etc.. It requires teams without their money to draft PERFECTLY, for a number of years, to come even close to their success. And then what? Then they have to tear it all down and build it back up again in a few years, because all of their franchise players are now on the Yankees. The Rays run is already over. They lose at least Crawford/Pena this year, probably Soriano too. What happens in a few years when that's Longoria and Price?

Nobody can truly compete with the Yankees, because the Yankees never have to go through a rebuild period. Their "rebuilding" is signing CC, Burnett, Tex, in one off season. Because that's fair to other teams.

Baseball has to fix this, because their game is broken.


Oh, and now it's being reported that not only is Zito not starting, he's been left off the ROSTER for the NLDS. Nice.

[slickdtc]

Re: Did anyone notice...

It does suck that the Yankees can go out and buy an ace and some other parts and win a championship, or at least pretty much guarantee a playoff spot yearly. But they're the exception; we saw the Red Sox and Mets both miss the playoffs this year, and they're #2 and #3 in payroll behind NYY. I've just kind of accepted NYY for what they are and I root for the opponent to beat them in pretty much every case because of that. I'm a fan of the underdog, and you're always that against the Yanks. But hey, there's 3 other spots to fill in the AL and 4 spots to fill in the NL for the playoffs.

In summary, I don't think it's completely broken, nor do I think it's completely fine. I am disappointed that a team like TB is going to be dismantled a bit because of money constraints. Maybe a World Series victory can save Crawford from being moved due to salary?

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Did anyone notice...

No parity?
If these payroll numbers are correct...in the playoffs......
You've got 3 teams with payroll in the top 10....3 teams with payroll in the middle 10 and 2 team with payroll from the bottom up.
How much more parity do you need than that?!

You're looking at 1 year scenario. Yes in any given year, a team can get hot and make a run. And I'm sure you will see a similar mix every year. However the teams at the top will be repeaters and the teams from the middle and bottom will always be revolving. That's not parity.

The Yankee's will be there 9 of every 10 years or 16 of 17 years to be exact. You won't see that from any of the bottom 2/3 of teams (or bottom 75% of teams for that matter). The Twins are really the only exception of a team from the lower tiers that have been a consistent contender year to year (6 of last 10). And I'm not talking about the order on this list for this year as it changes every year and teams like the Braves were in that top tier when they were perennial playoff contenders).<O</O
<O</O

You're going to see 3 or 4 or 5 teams from the bottom tiers every year, but they are almost always going to be different teams in a revolving playoff door..however, every year you are going to see the Yankee's and 6 or 7 out of every 10 years, you’ll probably also see Boston or the Cardinals or the Phillies.<O</O
<O</O

There is a $60M gap between #1 and #3. There is a $60M gap between #3 and #15. To say that teams are playing with an even field, IMO, is insane.<O</O

<O</O
Tampa Bay had a $75M payroll and according to their owners, they lost money and have to cut payroll to $50M to basically break even. Needless to say, it's very unlikely that they will be making a similar run next year without Crawford, Pena and who ever else they have to release.<O</O
<O</O

So yes, there may be some parity in total on a year to year basis between the tiers, but when you compare individual teams and you compare the Yankee's to almost any other team it instantly goes away.
<O</OLet’s look at the last 10 years of payroll data and playoff data:<O</O
(payroll data from here: http://content.usatoday.com/sports/b...aspx?year=2010)
<O</O
<O</O
Over the past 10 season:<O</O
In the AL<O</O
-The top 5 payrolls in the AL have made the post season 23 times or 56% of the time.<O</O
-The mid 4 have made it 7 times or 18%<O</O
-The bottom 5 have made it 10 times or 25%<O</O
<O</O

So basically you have one group of teams making it twice as often as either of the other two groups of stores. And when the bottom and mid teams do make it, it’s usually a one and done. They get hot, make a few key pickups down the stretch, go for broke and then disassemble the next year (See the A's, Brewers, Marlins, Rays this year).<O</O
<O</O

In the NL:<O</O
Similar in the NL, but slightly lower (since they don’t have as wide of gap between #1 and the rest of the field). <O</O
-The top 5 payrolls have made it to the post season 21 times (53%)<O</O
-The mid 6 have made it 16 times (40%)..This makes sense though. In the AL, the difference between the top 5 and mid 5 on average is $51M a year over the last 5 years…it’s only $30M in the NL over the same period of time. The gap isn’t nearly as big in the NL<O</O
-The bottom 5 have made it 2 times (5%)<O</O
<O</O

Do you really believe the Yankee's would have made the post season 16 of the last 17 years without the payroll they have had? Do you think they would have been as successful with a $100M payroll every year? How many of the following would be playing elsewhere?: Jeter, A-Rod, Teixiera, Sabathia, (There is $100M right there) Burnett, Rivera. Do you think the A’s wanted to trade Hudson, Mulder, Zito and Tejada in the mid 90’s? The Astro’s would have loved to have kept Carlos Beltran and the Brewers would have loved to keep Sabathia after their run in 2008.

<O</OOn a given year, a handful of those lower to middle tiered teams have a chance…every year, almost all of those top tier teams have a chance.

Look, I'm not blaming the Yankee's or Red Sox for what they do. They are within the rules and if I would hope my team would spend money to no end in order to win...I just think the rulse don't give each team a fair chance every year.<O</O

[NYJets]

Re: Did anyone notice...

Where teams can spend millions upon millions on mediocre players, just for "depth" purposes, while other teams can't even afford their own players.

STOP SAYING THIS

Neither Burnett nor Zito were signed for "depth" purposes.

Nobody thought Zito's contract made sense. Was anybody else aside from the Giants offering him near that? It was a WTF moment. He's been mediocre since his Cy Young season. Since going to San Fran, he has been terrible, downright embarrassing at times. He's had like one decent stretch in the entire time he's been there, and it was only for like three months of a season. He was kicked out of the rotation at one point. And now he's not even a starting pitcher in the playoffs. Now the Giants are paying him multi-millions for 7 years.

You are right that most people thought that both of these contracts were bad, but the Giants and Yankees did not, they thought they were getting front end of the rotation pitchers.

Burnett was brought on to be a number 2 starter. At over 80 million dollars. And now he's not even in the rotation. Do the Yankees care? No, because they got one World Series out of him. They can just throw a pile of cash to a guy, and then not care what happens after they get what they want.

Pretty sure they care. They have him for 5 years. You act like because they aren't using him in the first round when they are only using 3 starters, that he's never going to pitch for the Yankees again. He'll be in the rotation next round if they make it, and he'll be in the rotation next year.

Here you have ONE player, who isn't even the best at his position in the league, and is aging, having more money than you can imagine committed to him, until he's in his 40's.

When A-Rod signed that contract he was either the best or 2nd best player in all of baseball.




Everyone knows that baseball isn't perfect. But the fact that 2 teams are trying to give themselves the best chance to win instead of just playing the guys who make the most money is not an example of what's wrong with baseball.

[Trevytrev11]

Re: Did anyone notice...

When A-Rod signed that contract he was either the best or 2nd best player in all of baseball.

Also, they were paying A-Rod for his prime years and to get him for those prime years, they had to over-pay him for the following years.

He could have restructured the contract to be $35M early on and $15M later on, but it wouldn't have made a difference. To get a top player in their prime, you are going to have to absorb some risk later on...otherwise someone else would have.

I can't imagine that when he signed that contract anyone in the world thought he would be as productive at 38 or 40 as he was at 31 or 32.

Every contract presents a risk to both parties. If the player outperforms himself, the team gets a steal and if the player underperforms, then he, in turn, gets a steal. A-Rod made $25M this year and Josh Hamilton made $3.5.

[dodgerblue]

Re: Did anyone notice...

Good discussion with good points on both sides. I couldn't help but weigh in.

The current system obviously benefits the large markets, that goes without saying. But aren't the large markets the ones that draw the most eyeballs? Look at the WS ratings over the past few years when you don't get NY or BOS. The Phils-Rays series was one of the least watched. I'm all for competition, but I think its a good thing that dynasties can develop...this is something you are seeing less frequently in the NFL.

There is a "soft cap" with a tax placed on teams that overspend. It is up to those lower level teams and owners to use that money (I'm talking to you Pittsburgh!). While the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets etc. will have a competetive advantage with more money to spend, it doesn't guarantee success as Knight proved with his breakdown a few pages back. I admit that it does make life easier for a GM who can sign players at will; just take one look at the Yankees lineup. Yes, it looks like it will be Phils-Yanks in the series again, and they are the two highest payrolls of anyone left in the playoffs...but they would also probably draw the most viewers too.

I haven't looked at the numbers but I bet the Lakers and Celtics (to look at another sport) were probably paying out higher salaries than other teams and the Clippers weren't. I think the will of the owner has as much to do with it as the system that is in place. I think a team that has more value and resources naturally would be able to get better players. It's why franchises have different values. It makes beating them on the field that much more satisfying.

[dodgerblue]

Re: Did anyone notice...

Just to add to the discussion, I found this to be an interesting article...

http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/2010/10/04/baseballs-most-and-least-efficient-teams-for-the-2010-season/

enjoy!

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Did anyone notice...

There is a "soft cap" with a tax placed on teams that overspend. It is up to those lower level teams and owners to use that money (I'm talking to you Pittsburgh!). While the Yankees, Dodgers, Mets etc. will have a competetive advantage with more money to spend, it doesn't guarantee success as Knight proved with his breakdown a few pages back. I admit that it does make life easier for a GM who can sign players at will; just take one look at the Yankees lineup. Yes, it looks like it will be Phils-Yanks in the series again, and they are the two highest payrolls of anyone left in the playoffs...but they would also probably draw the most viewers too.

The problem with this is that the Yankees can still spend more than anyone. See the Sabathia situation. The Brewers, a team that benefits from the revenue sharing, offers CC 100 mill, and the Yankees just offer him more, plus a guaranteed playoff appearance. So how does it help? The Yankees can still get any player they want, and their front office still has the nerve to call out the Brewers for not "spending their money", which was appalling.

Obviously, incompetent front-office management will sink any team. The Mets have terrible management. So do the Cubs. So what does more money help them? They're in the same boat as the Pirates and Royals, only they have giant bloated salaries from bad contracts. But then again, this is ALL due to the world that the Yankees created, through the broken system that baseball allows. Putting everybody on an even playing field financially means that every team has to manage its talent the right way. Where you can't create All-Star teams through signing the biggest FA's year after year after year after year.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: Did anyone notice...

God bless the Yankees (or any other team) for taking their money and pumping it back into the team.

I wish my ownership did EVERYTHING in their power to put a winning product out on the field no matter what.

Like it or not, these players still have to perform. Zito hasn't performed. Burnett hasn't particularly performed this year. Countless other millionaires haven't performed either. It's all about finding who WILL perform.

I'm more pissed at teams who mismanage their money or don't even spend it, than the ones who actually play to win.

You want to make the playoffs and not spend a ****load of money on players? Draft smart, manage smart, scout smart, and you'll find your teams in there sooner or later despite your limitations. See; Tampa Bay, Minnesota, Oakland, hell, even the Braves have not spent nearly as much as they used to, and yet with guys like Hanson/Heyward/Prado/McCann/Kimbrel/Venters/Medlen all coming up from the minors. Hell, even bargain signings/trades like Ankiel (who made the trade pay off with ONE swing of the bat last night), Lee, etc. I mean, jeez.

I'm so sick of this argument. SO sick of it.

/rant off

[CMH]

Re: Did anyone notice...

It must be the first of the month. Waiting for the next thread on this in November.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: Did anyone notice...

There should be more threads about this. It should be discussed constantly in every media outlet too. It's messed up that a professional sport blatantly gives one team a huge advantage over the rest of the league.