Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

[RonnieG]

Im talking stylistically. And yes I acknowledge the irony of Guillen getting in trouble for ordering HGH. It just seems this team relies more on pitching and defense than pitching and HRs.

You really dont see one slugger on the Giants that you could see some team giving big money to. They have a lot of guys who can field the ball however.

I wonder if GMs will view SF as a template for how to win in post steroid baseball.

[SPTO]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

Sorry my friend but the Angels have the Giants beat by at LEAST 6 years. The Angels have played a more pre-steroid brand of baseball for the majority of the last decade mainly influenced by their manager. It's true that LA's had more power in the lineup over the years but that just means they have a little more balance that way. They play fundamental baseball moving the runners over, laying down the bunt, situational hitting such as the hit and run and stealing bases at the right time.

The Giants do remind me of a pre-steroid era team as well but if anything they're following the Angels model more then anything else but they've had to rely more on their pitching because the hitting isn't their strong suit. In that vein they remind me a bit of the '85 Royals. A team with guys who can hit and come through in the clutch but they didn't really have a super power threat (other then Balboni) and the pitching carried the day.

So if anything, the Giants follow the Angels model more then anything else.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

SPTO hit it on the head with the Angels reference...

Tampa is built like that too, Maddon was a long time Angels guy who brought that philosophy to turn that ship around, which worked...

There's also some "Moneyball" in the way Saben has made his recent moves...

In addition to pitching and defence, the Giants are not "built for speed", which is more of a "Moneyball" thing and less Angels / Rays...

OP does make a vaild / interesting point...

The way teams go about their player moves now is changing, for a variety of reasons...

[Scottdau]

Sorry my friend but the Angels have the Giants beat by at LEAST 6 years. The Angels have played a more pre-steroid brand of baseball for the majority of the last decade mainly influenced by their manager. It's true that LA's had more power in the lineup over the years but that just means they have a little more balance that way. They play fundamental baseball moving the runners over, laying down the bunt, situational hitting such as the hit and run and stealing bases at the right time.

The Giants do remind me of a pre-steroid era team as well but if anything they're following the Angels model more then anything else but they've had to rely more on their pitching because the hitting isn't their strong suit. In that vein they remind me a bit of the '85 Royals. A team with guys who can hit and come through in the clutch but they didn't really have a super power threat (other then Balboni) and the pitching carried the day.

So if anything, the Giants follow the Angels model more then anything else.

Actually this is all Giants. Brian had a power bat with Bonds. So they drafted pitchers. Not one good bat came out of those picks. But the pitching was stacked. Now they decided to just use those pitchers. And throw some good hitters in the mixed. The Giants win most of their games when they score more than 3 runs. That has been that way for the last years.

[iLLmatic]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

Im talking stylistically. And yes I acknowledge the irony of Guillen getting in trouble for ordering HGH. It just seems this team relies more on pitching and defense than pitching and HRs.

You really dont see one slugger on the Giants that you could see some team giving big money to. They have a lot of guys who can field the ball however.

I wonder if GMs will view SF as a template for how to win in post steroid baseball.

I agree with this. The Giants haven't followed anyones "model". The Giants play like this out of necessity and because of bad signings and trades that forced them to look into all options. It's just finally coming together. But with the majority of their core position players all being in their 30's, they still have work to do for the future with position players because after all that drafting of SP's for 5 years straight, they haven't gotten as fortunate with position players outside of Posey and maybe Sandoval, and that's only if he can figure out that being a fat slob will only shorten his career.

The Angels and Rays may move guys over and bunt, but they don't do it for the same reasons the Giants do. Both of those teams have had or currently still have far more reliable thump in their line up than SF could dream of. This was their plan from the time they drafted Cain in 2002 and exclusively drafted SP's in the 1st couple rounds for a good 4-5 year stretch.

This philosophy got them all their current starters except for Zito, one of those bad signings. Since Bonds has left which was 3 years ago, this team has ZERO serious HR threats partially because no one wants to play here because it is known to have a reputation as a pitchers park and not too kind to hitters. Hell, they had Bengie Molina as their clean up hitter until he got traded away.

[RonnieG]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

SPTO hit it on the head with the Angels reference...

Tampa is built like that too, Maddon was a long time Angels guy who brought that philosophy to turn that ship around, which worked...

There's also some "Moneyball" in the way Saben has made his recent moves...

In addition to pitching and defence, the Giants are not "built for speed", which is more of a "Moneyball" thing and less Angels / Rays...

OP does make a vaild / interesting point...

The way teams go about their player moves now is changing, for a variety of reasons...

The Angels might stylistically be that way, true. But lets not pretend that they dont also fall back on the HR. They frequently add thump to their lineups, whether Teixiera, Vlad, Abreu, or whoever. I guess thats why I dont automatically think of the Angels relative to the topic. But, youre right, they do try to manufacture runs.

But when I look at the Giants, I see that Aubrey Huff was the teams triple crown winner with .290/26/86.

When I look at the 10 Giants, I kind of think of the 88 Dodgers. Gibsons statline from that season was amazingly similar to Huff's this year (.290/25/76).

Pitching-wise, the Dodgers had the following:

Hershiser 2.26
Leary 2.91
Belcher 2.91

The Giants have:

Lincecum 3.43
Cain 3.14
Sanchez 3.07

But the thing I think is kind of interesting, is that sometimes you wonder how teams scored before the steroid era and the proliferation of HRs. The way the Giants string together hits kind of reminds me of that. They dont have any huge thumpers per se. When you look at their top HR hitters, its reminiscent of a team from the 80s or early 90s.

[KingV2k3]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

But the thing I think is kind of interesting, is that sometimes you wonder how teams scored before the steroid era and the proliferation of HRs. The way the Giants string together hits kind of reminds me of that. They dont have any huge thumpers per se. When you look at their top HR hitters, its reminiscent of a team from the 80s or early 90s.

Yeah, I like old school offence that includes moving the runner along, sac bunts and flies, hit and run, stealing bases, etc...

If / when a HR was hit, it's a big deal, as it should be...

Reminds me of what I liked about baseball in the first place, which began around the time they lowered the mound to create more offence and then implemented the DH for the same reason...both mistakes IMHO, but that's another debate altogether...

[Dice]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

Well, consider these numbers. The Giants is the first World Series Championship team since the 1995 Atlanta Braves that:
- Doesn't have a hitter with over 30 home runs
- Doesn't have a hitter with over 100 RBI's
- Only one guy with double digit in steals.(Andres Torres with 26)

So they don't out-slug you nor do they have superb speed. They truly beat you with straight pitching.

[MasudaElTerrible]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

playing in that huge park doesnt help either

[CMH]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

Every championship team has won because of pitching and defense. That's never changed.

[Scottdau]

Well, consider these numbers. The Giants is the first World Series Championship team since the 1995 Atlanta Braves that:
- Doesn't have a hitter with over 30 home runs
- Doesn't have a hitter with over 100 RBI's
- Only one guy with double digit in steals.(Andres Torres with 26)

So they don't out-slug you nor do they have superb speed. They truly beat you with straight pitching.

I think the ball park plays in big factor in this.

[Dice]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

Every championship team has won because of pitching and defense. That's never changed.

While this is true, if you look at some of the recent World Series teams you’ll find that they have one or two or maybe three guys in their lineup that can take you deep. Yes, pitching and defense are the main ingredients of championship baseball BUT you have to complement that with scoring. If just pitching was involved then Oakland should have been in the World Series against the Giants. BUT because Oakland has a terrible offense, they can’t even make the playoffs to even compete for the World Series.

[Amoo316]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

I see the Giants and Angels as two different styles. IMO the Angels are more "following" the mold the Twins have been successful with under Gardy. Although even that is not necessarily fair to say as the it kind of discredits what Scioscia has done for that entire franchise.

I don't really see the comparisons with the Giants valid to any team since the early 90s Braves teams. Biggest difference being the Giants had a dependable closer.

[Amoo316]

Re: Does anyone else think the Giants are a pre-steroid era throwback team?

I think the ball park plays in big factor in this.

I'm assuming you are speaking from a Giants perspective only since the Braves were still playing in "The Launching Pad" in 95?

[Scottdau]

I'm assuming you are speaking from a Giants perspective only since the Braves were still playing in "The Launching Pad" in 95?

Yeah just the Giants.