Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

[Chip Douglass]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Purer now than ever. YIKES.

Ummmmm, yeah, I would definitely say that the "purity of the game" has improved by a factor of approximately 1,000,000,000 from the time when players colluded with organized crime to throw championships and when it was an unspoken rule for teams not to sign black players.

Maybe my priorities are totally screwed up, but I'd like to think that conspiring with the Mafia to fix games and racial segregation are far, far, worse than injecting chemicals in your body to improve performance.

In terms of actual punishments being handed out, the steroid scandal isn't even the worst drug scandal in baseball.

[12]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Ummmmm, yeah, I would definitely say that the "purity of the game" has improved by a factor of approximately 1,000,000,000 from the time when players colluded with organized crime to throw championships and when it was an unspoken rule for teams not to sign black players.

Maybe my priorities are totally screwed up, but I'd like to think that conspiring with the Mafia to fix games and racial segregation are far, far, worse than injecting chemicals in your body to improve performance.

In terms of actual punishments being handed out, the steroid scandal isn't even the worst drug scandal in baseball.

You know... For as much as I wish this wasn't true, it is.

Baseball has a great history, but it also has era's where some pretty bad stuff happened that reflected negatively on the game.

That's my whole point with this thread... Asking the question on whether people realize this and have accepted it, or realized it and quit following the game.

When the steroids era is over, something else will come up. Time, and improved science will show that the PEDs era is far from over.

[slickdtc]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Hmmm, great thread.

I think it's kind of like growing up. When you're growing up, the world is your oyster, everything is innocent. For example, baseball. You play for the fun of the game. There's no lofty dreams of the money, fame, glitz and glamour of being famous (though many do wanna be Major Leaguers). You play it because you love it.

As you grow older, hit your teens and 20's, you start to see the world as it is: a big scary, actually pretty bad place. Don't get me wrong, there are bright spots and good things that happen in this world, but it seems the dark and scary weigh more on you then the glimpses of good.

It shouldn't be accepted, in a perfect world. The steroids, drugs, racism, throwing of games, gambling, cocaine. All of that crap should've been dealt with strictly and swiftly. It wasn't, now "it's just part of the game". It's accepted. Like Knight's first paragraph in the 2nd post of this thread. Eventually it all became... O.K. You've been worn down. It's sad, but it's reality.

[slickdtc]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

And like many have said, the game was never really pure in the first place, though they sure as hell make it seem like that when you're growing up. "You better hustle down to 1st, out of respect for the game!"

Yeah, respect. Right.

[SPTO]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

The game was never truly pure but I think there's a difference between using something that amounts to taking caffeine shots to give you minimal energy and shooting yourself up with steroids that can completely change the way you can perform. While it's not always the case that steroids can make you perform better it does add elements to one's game that were never there in the first place.

At least when it came to taking greenies or pitchers scuffing the baseball it was a kind of unwritten game of "I'll do whatever it takes to win within REASON". That's the key there, all reason was thrown out the window when everyone was shooting themselves up with roids and other such substances. I mean, it was simply not natural when you saw guys who were once pretty thin but muscular to a degree turn into behemoths. I'm not just talking about Bonds either. Just look at someone like Rafael Palmeiro and Sammy Sosa.

So I will say that the game was never TRULY pure but all reason was lost in the '90s and probably before since Canseco was said to be shooting up as early as 1988.

[wwharton]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

The game was never truly pure but I think there's a difference between using something that amounts to taking caffeine shots to give you minimal energy and shooting yourself up with steroids that can completely change the way you can perform. While it's not always the case that steroids can make you perform better it does add elements to one's game that were never there in the first place.

At least when it came to taking greenies or pitchers scuffing the baseball it was a kind of unwritten game of "I'll do whatever it takes to win within REASON". That's the key there, all reason was thrown out the window when everyone was shooting themselves up with roids and other such substances. I mean, it was simply not natural when you saw guys who were once pretty thin but muscular to a degree turn into behemoths. I'm not just talking about Bonds either. Just look at someone like Rafael Palmeiro and Sammy Sosa.

So I will say that the game was never TRULY pure but all reason was lost in the '90s and probably before since Canseco was said to be shooting up as early as 1988.

Couldn't you say this is on par with evolution in general? Weight training has become a much bigger focus, and really analyzing swing mechanics and just how players train. Just like every sport, it's not fair to directly judge a player of yesteryear to today because of all the tools and knowledge that just wasn't readily available back then. The same is true with the "extra" stuff. I don't think there was a "within reason" level back then. Guys that would do anything to get an edge would've done more if more was available. I don't think Frank Thomas ever did anything but he certainly took advantage of ways to become bigger and stronger that weren't available in the 50's and 60's.

[SPTO]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Couldn't you say this is on par with evolution in general? Weight training has become a much bigger focus, and really analyzing swing mechanics and just how players train. Just like every sport, it's not fair to directly judge a player of yesteryear to today because of all the tools and knowledge that just wasn't readily available back then. The same is true with the "extra" stuff. I don't think there was a "within reason" level back then. Guys that would do anything to get an edge would've done more if more was available. I don't think Frank Thomas ever did anything but he certainly took advantage of ways to become bigger and stronger that weren't available in the 50's and 60's.

Good point but on the flipside couldn't you say that the guys of yesteryear take advantage of modern medical science and weight training? There' s a difference between evolution making guys bigger and stronger and the use of other "outside" chemicals and such to make you a freak of enhanced nature.

It's a very fine line and could very well be splitting hairs but that's the way I see it. I don't really begrudge the guys doing that from the perspective competitiveness but that's where the leagues and what have you have to step in and set limits.

[wwharton]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Good point but on the flipside couldn't you say that the guys of yesteryear take advantage of modern medical science and weight training? There' s a difference between evolution making guys bigger and stronger and the use of other "outside" chemicals and such to make you a freak of enhanced nature.

It's a very fine line and could very well be splitting hairs but that's the way I see it. I don't really begrudge the guys doing that from the perspective competitiveness but that's where the leagues and what have you have to step in and set limits.

I wasn't really speaking on the moral side of taking things (I think I've done enough of that in the other threads, lol). It's more a question on the idea of taking greenies back in the day being less offensive than shooting up today... or that back then they would do anything to get an edge "within reason". I feel it's more a case of guys doing anything it takes only having those things available and today there are better things available. Personally, I don't come down with an iron fist on any of them because I know there are many players with this mentality in all sports. But I can't wrap my head around giving those guys a pass and coming down hard on today's players.

My talk of improved weight training was probably confusing, but it was more of just a comparison to say clean or not, players use what they have available to them and always have. We see bigger and stronger (and smarter) players today bc of legal things, and we see greater effects of illegal things also... all under the umbrella of us just moving forward in the world.

[djep]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

What has helped is that the game has really cleaned up over the past 5 years. I was getting pretty tired of watching scrubs jack 30 homers a year.

I love the game of baseball just as much now as I ever did but I am saddened by the tainted home run record, the greatest record in all of sports. I don't think any normal human will be able to break the single season record and that was always one of the fun things to track during a season.

Steroids hasn't ruined baseball for me but I do wish we had that home run record back.

[travis72]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

What has helped is that the game has really cleaned up over the past 5 years. I was getting pretty tired of watching scrubs jack 30 homers a year.

I love the game of baseball just as much now as I ever did but I am saddened by the tainted home run record, the greatest record in all of sports. I don't think any normal human will be able to break the single season record and that was always one of the fun things to track during a season.

Steroids hasn't ruined baseball for me but I do wish we had that home run record back.

I like what Bob Costas said a while back during a game. He said" Barry Bonds is not the HR king he is the statisical leader in that categeory, Hank Aaron is the the HR king". He even went further to say Bonds is not the single season HR champ he is just the statistical leader for that season, the true single seaon HR champ is Roger Maris 61hr. I thought to my self that was a great way to look at it.
Nothing anyone does will ruin my love for the game at any time. I will say that they could improve upon the game by canning Bud Selig ***. He just to much the blame for the steriod era as the players are as he turned a blind eye to it.

[Bahnzo]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Baseball is a reflection of American society. The points about players and gangsters, the exclusion of blacks, drug use (greenies, then the 80's, the steroids) are all valid, but I don't think they degrade or made the game any less "pure".

The game is still pretty much the same as it was 50 years ago. And that's why it's still the best.......

[12]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Hmmm, great thread.

I think it's kind of like growing up. When you're growing up, the world is your oyster, everything is innocent. For example, baseball. You play for the fun of the game. There's no lofty dreams of the money, fame, glitz and glamour of being famous (though many do wanna be Major Leaguers). You play it because you love it.

As you grow older, hit your teens and 20's, you start to see the world as it is: a big scary, actually pretty bad place. Don't get me wrong, there are bright spots and good things that happen in this world, but it seems the dark and scary weigh more on you then the glimpses of good.

It shouldn't be accepted, in a perfect world. The steroids, drugs, racism, throwing of games, gambling, cocaine. All of that crap should've been dealt with strictly and swiftly. It wasn't, now "it's just part of the game". It's accepted. Like Knight's first paragraph in the 2nd post of this thread. Eventually it all became... O.K. You've been worn down. It's sad, but it's reality.

That is a GREAT analogy.

When I was growing up, Griffey was my hero. I was eight when he was a rookie, and he was my favorite player growing up. I remember idolizing him to the point of not even thinking he was human. In my mind, he was this mythical being that was the greatest thing in the world. He wasn't like me... He wasn't like anyone.

He was special.

When I was 10 or so, we waited outside of the Kingdome near the player's exit. It was Little League Day and all of us kids were waiting outside to hopefully get some autographs. We were all waiting on Junior. Well, when he finally came out, he was being driven on a golf cart. He was sitting in the back, and had his head buried in a magazine. All of us kids were yelling at him and telling him how awesome he was... But, he never even looked up at us and waved. I remember my dad being pretty pissed, and I didn't understand how he couldn't even wave to us.

It crushed me.

I looked at Griffey the same way I looked at baseball as a whole when I was younger. It was the perfect game. Then, I grew up. Now, if I met Griffey, it'd be cool, but not earth shattering. I'd thank him for the memories and be on my way. He provided me with some great childhood memories.

I still love baseball, but in growing up, I still the game as perfect -- but that's just the game itself. The people that comprise the game, the stats, the wins and losses... They are flawed, just like most everything else.

Maybe none of that makes sense... But when you look at the game, it is pure in it's intended form, but the actions of others have obviously changed the whole scope of that. That's the way it is.

[slickdtc]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Yeah, the game itself is pure. I mean, of course it is. It's a game. lol. But the people that comprise it, while I wouldn't say they're like you or me because they're super talented and super compensated for that talent, they're just as flawed, or even more so then us. They're still people who fall into the traps that everyday people do. The difference is, we see them on TV or at the ballpark on a near daily basis, they're put on pedestals. Some embrace that and try to become role models because that's what they're viewed as, willing or not. Others are just *******s as they've been their whole lives and being a Major Leaguer hasn't changed that.

Baseball is a game played by people. When you throw together, what like 1000 people (who happen to be Major League baseball players), not all are going to be good. Just like if you assemble 1000 random people from the public, you'll have plenty of bad apples and a some good ones to balance that out.

[TheShizNo1]

Didn't steroids help the game in terms of popularity. I see it as a double edges sword.

Baseball was really brought back into the spotlight. I remember in six grade ALWAYS seeing the home run race in the front page.

BUT....it also may have turned some off and you have ridiculous numbers that may not be reached.
I think it was both good and bad.

I agree w/ the person who said it's probably as pure as it's ever been.

[SPTO]

Re: Has your opinion changed on the purity of the game?

Didn't steroids help the game in terms of popularity. I see it as a double edges sword.

I've heard the following from some people but if Bonds had never turned into a monstrosity and broken McGwire's single season and Aaron's career HR records then people wouldn't have obsessed so much over the Steroid Era precisely for the fact that it brought people back to the game of baseball.

Somehow that kinda makes me feel sad that we as a sports society would look the other way because "nice guys" were doing it and brought popularity back to the game but as soon as a guy hated by the media and a lot of fans does it, it becomes a circus and people go into Woodward and Bernstein mode.