How sad is this...

[Majingir]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/6837424/baseball-toronto-blue-jays-suspicion-again-stealing-signs-rogers-centre

Jays being accused of stealing signs by having someone in the OF tell the batters the pitch being thrown. The article is having stats about the Jays players numbers at home and on the road(here's a shock, a team plays worse on the road, so obviouslly the numbers would drop, especially with so much travel for an eastern team that's not the yankees or red sox who can win no matter what).

And guess which 2 teams are heavily accusing them....Yankees and Red Sox! This is just sad how they're trying to find excuses for a team like the Jays who are improving now. They were accused of the exact same thing by the Yankees a few years ago(and Jays roster/staff was completely diff too, so guys like Overbay,Thomas,Glaus,Wells ect. would have said something after leaving Toronto if this was true cause they wouldn't get in trouble, the Jays would)

Another reason for Jays doing bad on the road is the fact that they play so many road games during the day. Jays are one of MLBs worst teams during the day, but one of MLBs best at night(and they play alot of home games at night)

[Blzer]

Re: How sad is this...

If we had an argument about this in the "Baseball Etiquette" thread, I'd kind of be on both sides of the fence with the argument about whether this is right or wrong to do in the first place, despite the accusations.

On one hand, if you're doing it, I think it's pretty bush. You're nearly becoming a cheat to give yourself an advantage over the other team, because you can't do it yourself in an honest manner.

On the other hand, is this/should this be illegal? The last I checked, the sole reason for signs to exist is so try and make sure you can get away with teams not knowing what you're doing on the field. If it weren't for a bunch of hand signals, teams instead would be yelling "FASTBALL" or "BUNT" so that they can let their players know. They don't want anybody else to know, so they invent a sign language for themselves. And, as far as I'm concerned, if the other team picks up on their sign language, I never knew they weren't allowed to translate it for themselves. It's like counting cards in blackjack: if it's available for you, it's kind of indiscretionary to notice/enforce somebody to just play to their advantages when they can.

In short, it still is frowned upon in some ways, so I say that you should only privilege yourself to stealing signs if you can get away with it. This isn't the same as robbery or murder; that is never encouraged. If a player notices a pitcher tip his pitch, throw fastballs on 2-0 pitches, or see the shadow of the catcher move his body as the sun goes down, this isn't unethical. In baseball, you're already so unsuccessful at the plate as is. You're trying to do anything you can to give yourself the slightest advantage of understanding what the pitcher's intentions are.

As I said, the point of having signs is so that you can attempt to hide from your opponents. If you're found out, you have to change them up yourselves. I see third basemen turn their head and face third base coaches directly just to watch them give signs. Everybody can see him giving it, it's not disallowed to try and pick them.

The only way I really see this being wrong is if there is somebody in the clubhouse watching the game on television, and feeding the information over to a dugout person's ear so they can call out something to the hitter about what's coming. Otherwise, if it's on the field, it's fair game IMO.

Are the Blue Jays picking them? I don't know, I suppose I would need video evidence of it. I know for a fact that when the Giants go to San Diego, they do multiple hand signals even when there isn't a runner aren't on second base, because they simply don't/can't afford to trust them. They aren't whining and complaining that the other team might be giving themselves some sort of advantage, they are just making their signs more complicated... as is what you should do.

I'd say I err more to the side of allowing signs to be picked, as long as you don't get caught doing it.

EDIT: Just as a side note, I actually did believe at one point that Jose Bautista was being given purpose fat pitches by other teams on occasion to boost his numbers. Yes, I actually believed that over PED use or anything else. I thought that the MLB might have had something up their sleeve to have a new home run king, just by the nature of the pitches he's been hitting out for home runs. I'd like to debunk that theory, but knowing what's coming ahead of time would certainly make me think this is somewhat possible that it's happening...

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: How sad is this...

Same Jays team that accused A-Rod of yelling "got it" while between 2nd and 3rd rounding the bases on a routine pop up a bit back?

Irony?!

[Blzer]

Re: How sad is this...

Same Jays team that accused A-Rod of yelling "got it" while between 2nd and 3rd rounding the bases on a routine pop up a bit back?

Irony?!

Rodriguez said he said "Hop!" out loud, for no reason other than to do it. Yes, same guy who slapped a ball out of a player's hand while running down the first base line. Same guy who intentionally riled up Dallas Braden by running directly across the bump of the mound. Same guy who allegedly got tipped pitches himself from opposing teams in exchange for tipping pitches to them during blowout games.

Yes, we can start spinning this toward Rodriguez now. There was no reason for him to said what he did, outside of wanting the players to do exactly what they did. They had every right to accuse him. I'm not saying what he did was wrong (though it wasn't exactly "right" either), but it certainly had intent. Me thinketh the guy had just watched some Major League II right before that game.

Of course, I'd probably put that antic in the same boat as a middle infielder telling a baserunner that a ball is foul when he is stealing, only for it to be live in some form. I just think that's baseball, and as a softball coach I would allow for my players to do that if it wasn't considered defensive obstruction.

[Marino]

Re: How sad is this...

If one team is picking up on another team's signs, then change the signs.

[Blzer]

Re: How sad is this...

If one team is picking up on another team's signs, then change the signs.

I guess I have to learn to make posts as brief as yours while making the exact same point.

[EnigmaNemesis]

Re: How sad is this...

Rodriguez said he said "Hop!" out loud, for no reason other than to do it. Yes, same guy who slapped a ball out of a player's hand while running down the first base line. Same guy who intentionally riled up Dallas Braden by running directly across the bump of the mound. Same guy who allegedly got tipped pitches himself from opposing teams in exchange for tipping pitches to them during blowout games.

Yes, we can start spinning this toward Rodriguez now. There was no reason for him to said what he did, outside of wanting the players to do exactly what they did. They had every right to accuse him. I'm not saying what he did was wrong (though it wasn't exactly "right" either), but it certainly had intent. Me thinketh the guy had just watched some Major League II right before that game.

Of course, I'd probably put that antic in the same boat as a middle infielder telling a baserunner that a ball is foul when he is stealing, only for it to be live in some form. I just think that's baseball, and as a softball coach I would allow for my players to do that if it wasn't considered defensive obstruction.

Blzer, clearly you missed my point...

The poster is clearly a Jays fan, coming in here, harping on Yankee and Red Sox for them accusing the Jays of a "bushleague" tactic... which this was not the first time I recall the Jays being accused. Was done before by other teams in the past. As well as the White Sox being accused of using cameras.

When not too long ago, the Jays team accused A-Rod of a "bushleague" tactic.

Thus my IRONY comment.

Is all... dont read too much into my comment.

As for the article... just ESPN drumming up controversy. This goes on ALL THE TIME, that is why there is SIGNS and they CHANGE THEM PERIODICALLY. This is really a non-issue in the baseball world. Players will always jaw with one another, words in interviews will be taken out of context in the heat of frustration, and articles as sad as this pop up as a result. Human beings dont always get along. Business as usual.

[Blzer]

Re: How sad is this...

Okay then, I just didn't want this to be turned around with hypocrisy when you gave evidence with a hypocritical player himself. My comment had the same point that yours did. He clearly is a Jays fan, but I don't think his post screamed Yankees/Red Sox in a way that it was the only reason he created the thread. He was more concerned with the question embedded in the poll: is this ethical?

And you're right, this goes on all of the time. That's why I said this could be thrown around in the other thread regarding etiquette. Basically, what is the threshold that causes concern for picking signs? By his post, it seems to indicate that fans are giving the players signs or something. I don't know what it is, but it's a worthy discussion either way.

EDIT: Wow, I'm sorry. On the screen I read "irony/ironic," but in my head I thought "hypocrisy/hypocritical." I don't know how I totally misconstrued the two meanings. My bad.

[sbmnky]

Re: How sad is this...

If one team is picking up on another team's signs, then change the signs.

Agreed. However, stealing signs from the dugout is very different that stealing signs from the stands. The catcher shouldn't have to mix signs when no base runners are on, because no-one should be able to see the signs he's giving; not the dugout or the base coaches.

Now if the manager/pitching coach are relaying signs to the catcher, that's a completely different story. If the signs are in the open: bench to catcher, base coach to batter, catcher to fielders, etc, then those are bound to be attempted to be stolen.

I don't think anything further needs to be stated regarding A-Rod...

[BlueNGold]

Re: How sad is this...

Clearly this has translated into so much success for them.....

[SPTO]

Re: How sad is this...

I don't really think the Jays are stealing signs the way it's being made out in the ESPN article. Every team steals signs. You'd have to be pretty damn naive not to believe that but I don't think the Jays organization is not one that would hire some guy to sit in the stands and flash signs. It just doesn't make sense to me. Most of these accusations are about last year when Cito Gaston was managing. Were there people complaining about the Jays stealing signs when he was managing the team before? I think not.

Even if they did steal signs last year they've clearly stopped this year as they're basically a .500 team at home in '11 compared to being a very good team at home last year.

[CabreraMVP]

Re: How sad is this...

I don't get why this is so hard to believe. Posada last year was going through a set of signs by touching his shoulders and knees, with nobody on base. Relievers said they saw the guy for 2 straight seasons. And that from the batters box, the guys seat was right over the pitchers head. And that ballpark is a good place to hit, but the Jays hit much more homers than their opponents.

But of course right away I checked Jose Bautista's home/away splits. He was great at home, but much worse on the road. (Still good, but big drop off in OPS, 33 homers opposed to 20)

I'm sure they stopped though. Verlander no hit them, I can't imagine somebody throwing a no hitter if they other team knew what was coming.

[SPTO]

Re: How sad is this...

But of course right away I checked Jose Bautista's home/away splits. He was great at home, but much worse on the road. (Still good, but big drop off in OPS, 33 homers opposed to 20)

Did you happen to look at the park factors for the Rogers Center? I ask because the Rogers Center has been a HR hitter's paradise so of COURSE Bautista (and anyone else for that matter) is going to have better power numbers. In fact a few years ago people were jokingly calling the stadium Coors Field North.

[Blzer]

Re: How sad is this...

I'm sure they stopped though. Verlander no hit them, I can't imagine somebody throwing a no hitter if they other team knew what was coming.

Verlander would be an exception anyway. He's the kind of pitcher who can get you out even when you know what's coming.

I don't doubt this happened, I'm just questioning why it's such a big deal. The only two reasons I could see are: 1) they are coming from a fan in the stands, not the players doing it themselves; 2) Jose Bautista might be benefiting quite a bit from this.

Rogers Centre isn't exactly a pitcher's park though, either. I'm sure players are destined to hit more home runs there than on the road anyway.

[goh]

Re: How sad is this...

Clearly this has translated into so much success for them.....

Yah it's working out so well.
If they're doing it they're not doing a good job of it. Besides being caught being 4th in the division and a whole TWO games above .500 isn't exactly helpful.