Why can't managers use closers properly???

[justamush]

This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time, but it was reinforced this past weekend. I am using the Phillies as an example, but the same logic is used by a lot of managers in baseball.

On Saturday night, the Phillies and Pirates were tied 1-1 in the ninth inning. In the top of the 9th, the Pirates correctly use their best reliever, Joel Hanrahan, to get the Phillies out without giving up a run (it wasn't a perfect inning, but he got the job done). In the bottom of the 9th, the Phillies don't use their closer, Jonathan Papelbon, but instead use another reliever, to retire the side. Fast forward to the bottom of the 10th, and again Papelbon is on the bench, and it costs the Phillies, as the Pirates score the game winning run.

Now on Sunday, the same situation arises. The score is tied 4-4 in the top of the 9th, and again, the Pirates use Hanrahan to get a 1-2-3 inning. In the bottom of the 9th, the Pirates would score the winning run off a reliever not named Papelbon, who was comfortably seated in the bullpen.

So the Phillies lost two winnable games in either the bottom of the 9th or extra innings, and in neither one did they use their best reliever. Why do managers continue to do this?? Charlie Manual was saving him for a save situation that never came. It defies logic. Managers are more worried about a stupid save than giving their team the best chance to win.

To make this story even better, Papelbon did get to pitch on Monday.... when the Phillies were losing 5-2. So they had to use Papelbon Monday to get him some work (he hadn't pitched since Thursday, and the Phillies are off today) in a situation that wasn't nearly as crucial as the situations on Saturday or Sunday.

Sorry, but I had to rant. I see managers of all teams doing this constantly, and it drives me insane. The save is a stupid stat.

[TripleCrown9]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

If it's tied I wouldn't use my closer either, personally. The other team could just as easily win the game off of him, all it takes is one bad pitch. It makes sense to me. Wait until you have the lead to bring in the closer. If they brought Papelbon in when it was tied, what if the game keeps going? Sure he may get a 1-2-3 inning, but so might the other team. Then Papelbon is still in, hypothetically gets the 1-2-3, then again the other team does. See what I mean? Sure he could come in, but if the game keeps going for a few more innings, then he won't be rested for the next day. I don't, however, agree with bringing him in for a loss. Just throw some other reliever.

Now, obviously, I'm not a baseball coach or manager. But that's how I've always viewed the closer position. His job title implies that he's supposed to come in and close out a win.

[TheNumber35]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

The strategy for the home team, which in your example is the Pirates, is to burn their closer in the 9th or 10th inning of a tie game because the closer can no longer get a save in a game where they can walk-off.

The Phils, who if they scored had to go pitch to Pittsburgh in the bottom of the inning, were saving Papelbon for that situation of needing to close out a win with their best reliever, should it arise.

Strategy makes sense to me...I'd do it the same way as Charlie did everytime (unless the other reliever loaded the bases or some nonsense in the 9th)

[kehlis]

The problem is everyone has their own definition for the word properly in this situation.

[Sandman42]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

Because baseball managers are beholden to a useless stat.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/23416/blowing-up-baseballs-most-dangerous-stat

[JBH3]

I would use a closer in a non-save situation heading into extras if about to face top and/or middle of order. Otherwise spots 6-9, as a manager I should be able to send any arm out there with confidence to hold the game.

[slickdtc]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

What OP is saying is your closer is your best reliever, at least on the Phillies. Why not use your best reliever in a situation where you must retire the side?

I definitely get it. And explained how he did, I can see how they're only saving the closer for the save, which is an opportunity that is not guaranteed.

[JBH3]

What OP is saying is your closer is your best reliever, at least on the Phillies. Why not use your best reliever in a situation where you must retire the side?

I definitely get it. And explained how he did, I can see how they're only saving the closer for the save, which is an opportunity that is not guaranteed.

I get that, but if you're facing the bottom of the order a set-up or middle reliever should be able to get those outs and you save your closer for the more challenging hitters IMO.

[Perfect Zero]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

I get that, but if you're facing the bottom of the order a set-up or middle reliever should be able to get those outs and you save your closer for the more challenging hitters IMO.

But now that you're using that strategy, you are now holding your best reliever for a situation that never comes up!

The role of closer is the most overrated role in baseball right now. If there is a tie going into the ninth or tenth, you need to put up the best reliever that you have in the bullpen. If Paplebon is that guy, then you don't use him in two straight games that are extremely close and now he can't pitch that Monday because there is no leverageable opportunity.

[justamush]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

Because baseball managers are beholden to a useless stat.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...dangerous-stat

Saves are dumb. They keep managers from using their best players in the most critical moments.

Like I said in my original post, it's not just Charlie Manual either. Clint Hurdle did not use Joel Hanrahan last year in a game that went 19 INNINGS because he was saving him for a save situation. Needless to say, that save situation never came.

[kehlis]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

But now that you're using that strategy, you are now holding your best reliever for a situation that never comes up!

The role of closer is the most overrated role in baseball right now. If there is a tie going into the ninth or tenth, you need to put up the best reliever that you have in the bullpen. If Paplebon is that guy, then you don't use him in two straight games that are extremely close and now he can't pitch that Monday because there is no leverageable opportunity.

Disagreed,

If I think I could use a lesser reliever to get the bottom of the order out and save my best reliever for the top of the order I will do it 10 out of 10 times.

Sure, that opportunity may never come up but if coaches had a crystal ball there would be a lot of differences in the game we see played, not just how the closer is used.



But this is what is great about baseball, there are differences in opinion on strategies and I don't see how one could claim there is a right way and wrong way. It's what makes it great.

[Perfect Zero]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

So you are willing to lose a game with a lesser reliever just because he doesn't have the title of "Closer" instead of having a better chance with a better pitcher? I know there are a lot of different strategies, but holding your best pitcher in the bullpen while a "lesser" reliever blows the game isn't a very good one.

[kehlis]

So you are willing to lose a game with a lesser reliever just because he doesn't have the title of "Closer" instead of having a better chance with a better pitcher? I know there are a lot of different strategies, but holding your best pitcher in the bullpen while a "lesser" reliever blows the game isn't a very good one.

You're twisting my words to fit your argument.

I used the word lesser to distinguish the difference of the closer and someone else.

We arent talking about a division 3 college baseball team where there could be a large difference between the two.

Yes, I will take the chance of having a reliever who I trust at the backed of my bullpen in many situations throughout the year to be able to retire the weakest part of the lineup to have the chance to have my best reliever retire the hardest part of the order.

[BatsareBugs]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

Saves are okay, but winning games by going with your best reliever > saving him for a save situation and possibly losing because of that. There's a reason why there are set-up men and middle relievers, give them a save once in a while if you use your best reliever in a non-save situation and it pays off.

[kehlis]

Re: Why can't managers use closers properly???

Saves are okay, but winning games by going with your best reliever > saving him for a save situation and possibly losing because of that. There's a reason why there are set-up men and middle relievers, give them a save once in a while if you use your best reliever in a non-save situation and it pays off.

I dont disagree and that isn't what I've been saying as I could care less about saves.

At one point the discussion evolved into using the closer verses the bottom of the order in the ninth of a tied game or someone else from the bullpen, that's the only thing I've argued.