Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

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  • seanjeezy
    The Future
    • Aug 2009
    • 3347

    #16
    Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

    I think its an absurd accusation. Here is Hammel's location chart with hit results:



    If you don't want the other team to hit homeruns, stop throwing the ball down the middle
    Bakin' soda, I got bakin' soda

    Comment

    • Blzer
      Resident film pundit
      • Mar 2004
      • 42520

      #17
      Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

      Originally posted by SPTO
      Here's the thing I don't understand, how the heck is a fan sitting in the stands supposed to tell what's being called? I guess they can look at the opponents dugout and do it that way but then why go to all that trouble when you can do that on the field if you're the Blue Jays. I mean sitting in the stands wouldn't it be a bit hard to see the catcher's fingers going through the signs?
      I know 300 feet and 400 feet are completely different, but as a CF, I had no problem seeing what my catcher was calling, ever. I'll have to test this the next time that I go to a game, but it might not be impossible to see signs from CF.

      Anyway, somebody else was asking about how they tip the hitter. It's not like a fan would hold up a sign or some number of fingers from CF. There are so many other ways they could approach this. Fold arms, bend over, look left/right, rest chin on hand and elbow on armrest, lean back, scratch arm, cup hands together... the list never ends. In baseball, we did things as elementary as calling our name for a fastball, number for a breaking ball, and nickname for an off-speed pitch; we also did things as advanced as listening to who chants first (you have to know your players' voices), the number of times someone banged against the dugout fence/rail, or certain sayings (like an inside pitch would have them saying "Turn on one, kid!" and a changeup would be "Good hands, now!").

      Pretty simple stuff, and completely legal. When the fans are getting involved? You're kind of pushing things, aren't ya? It's like if a guy was watching the game in the clubhouse, then radioing it to someone in the dugout, who would now cue you up. Sign-stealing is one of those "unwritten rules" that might get you plunked on the field or get the other team barking, but it should stay out of the media and the commissioner's office. The number one rule of sign-stealing is don't get caught doing it. You'll only disadvantage yourself if you are.
      Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

      Comment

      • AC
        Win the East
        • Sep 2010
        • 14951

        #18
        Hammels was complaining about how well they hit his breaking balls. Fun fact: Every one of the Jays' for solo dingers were off of fastballs.

        Does anyone really care where I sent this from?
        "Twelve at-bats is a pretty decent sample size." - Eric Byrnes

        Comment

        • SPTO
          binging
          • Feb 2003
          • 68046

          #19
          Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

          Originally posted by DrJones

          As I recall, the unnamed team with the original complaints from early 2010 was the White Sox.
          You recall correctly, I think the Yankees also threw in some accusations as well.
          Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

          "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

          Comment

          • BatsareBugs
            LVP
            • Feb 2003
            • 12553

            #20
            Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

            I hope winning teams start accusing the Padres of cheating. It's unfair when other teams show up to games and put in effort for their wins while the Padres have taken the whole season off.

            Comment

            • ewingandoakley
              MVP
              • Jan 2012
              • 1448

              #21
              Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

              Originally posted by sydrogerdavid
              But Kenny Rodgers did cheat in 2006.

              What the hell is that? It looks like sh*t!
              Originally posted by Ken Griffey Jr
              Me, I'm the little guy in the group. People always root for the little guy.
              Originally posted by Ken Griffey Jr
              Why should I stretch? Does a cheetah stretch before it chases its prey?
              Originally posted by Johnny Damon
              I just go out and play.

              Comment

              • DieHardYankee26
                BING BONG
                • Feb 2008
                • 10178

                #22
                Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                Originally posted by ewingandoakley
                What the hell is that? It looks like sh*t!
                I think it was pine tar.
                Originally posted by G Perico
                If I ain't got it, then I gotta take it
                I can't hide who I am, baby I'm a gangster
                In the Rolls Royce, steppin' on a mink rug
                The clique just a gang of bosses that linked up

                Comment

                • snepp
                  We'll waste him too.
                  • Apr 2003
                  • 10007

                  #23
                  Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                  Originally posted by DieHardYankee26
                  I think it was pine tar.

                  Nope, it's ****.
                  Member of The OS Baseball Rocket Scientists Association

                  Comment

                  • jth1331
                    MVP
                    • Aug 2003
                    • 1060

                    #24
                    Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                    Originally posted by Blzer
                    I know 300 feet and 400 feet are completely different, but as a CF, I had no problem seeing what my catcher was calling, ever. I'll have to test this the next time that I go to a game, but it might not be impossible to see signs from CF.

                    Anyway, somebody else was asking about how they tip the hitter. It's not like a fan would hold up a sign or some number of fingers from CF. There are so many other ways they could approach this. Fold arms, bend over, look left/right, rest chin on hand and elbow on armrest, lean back, scratch arm, cup hands together... the list never ends. In baseball, we did things as elementary as calling our name for a fastball, number for a breaking ball, and nickname for an off-speed pitch; we also did things as advanced as listening to who chants first (you have to know your players' voices), the number of times someone banged against the dugout fence/rail, or certain sayings (like an inside pitch would have them saying "Turn on one, kid!" and a changeup would be "Good hands, now!").

                    Pretty simple stuff, and completely legal. When the fans are getting involved? You're kind of pushing things, aren't ya? It's like if a guy was watching the game in the clubhouse, then radioing it to someone in the dugout, who would now cue you up. Sign-stealing is one of those "unwritten rules" that might get you plunked on the field or get the other team barking, but it should stay out of the media and the commissioner's office. The number one rule of sign-stealing is don't get caught doing it. You'll only disadvantage yourself if you are.
                    To me, it just seems like it might be a tad too much for the hitter to look at a fan in the stands 400 feet away quickly, then back in time to see the pitcher pitch the ball. Seems like it would tie up the hitter possibly too much.
                    7 National Championships
                    43 Conference Championships
                    152 All-Americans
                    5 Heisman Trophy Winners
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                    #1 in wins/winning percentage since 1946
                    Oklahoma Sooners, Boomer Sooner!

                    Comment

                    • Blzer
                      Resident film pundit
                      • Mar 2004
                      • 42520

                      #25
                      Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                      Originally posted by jth1331
                      To me, it just seems like it might be a tad too much for the hitter to look at a fan in the stands 400 feet away quickly, then back in time to see the pitcher pitch the ball. Seems like it would tie up the hitter possibly too much.
                      Like I said, takes no time at all. If the runner on second is tipping pitches, they'll do the same thing. Hands open, closed, hands on knees; thumb out, kick dirt behind you, look at second; clap once, clap twice, wiggle fingers, stay tall... as long as you know what you're looking for, you can take a quick glance in your periphery (recall that this alleged fan must be just left or right of the batter's eye, or above it in the restaurant or hotel area at Rogers Centre), and straight back before the pitcher has even finished coming set or brought his leg up in the windup.
                      Samsung PN60F8500 PDP / Anthem MRX 720 / Klipsch RC-62 II / Klipsch RF-82 II (x2) / Insignia NS-B2111 (x2) / SVS PC13-Ultra / SVS SB-2000 / Sony MDR-7506 Professional / Audio-Technica ATH-R70x / Sony PS3 & PS4 / DirecTV HR44-500 / DarbeeVision DVP-5000 / Panamax M5400-PM / Elgato HD60

                      Comment

                      • ImTellinTim
                        YNWA
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 33028

                        #26
                        Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                        Originally posted by snepp
                        Nope, it's ****.
                        He took the Moises Alou solution one step further.

                        Comment

                        • sydrogerdavid
                          MVP
                          • May 2009
                          • 3109

                          #27
                          Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                          I know I can't see the signs from the center field stands.

                          Comment

                          • Buckeyes_Doc
                            In Dalton I Trust
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 11918

                            #28
                            Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                            Originally posted by sydrogerdavid
                            I know I can't see the signs from the center field stands.
                            Neither can I, and my vision is 20/20 corrected.

                            Maybe I'm just naive but I find this whole thing far-fetched.
                            Ohio State - Reds - Bengals - Blackhawks - Bulls

                            Comment

                            • fugazi
                              MVP
                              • Apr 2003
                              • 3749

                              #29
                              Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                              From the original article posted above...this is the most important part, imo, as it isn't made of opponents' invective...just numbers.

                              Tuning out the noise

                              Now, by themselves, the above splits aren't conclusive, so to measure the effect of Rogers Centre more precisely, The Mag consulted with Wyers. He has developed a method that generates park factors by comparing a player's performance in any given park with his performance in all other parks, not just in road games for that player. This reduces statistical noise and offers a better estimate of how a park actually plays in a given season. Wyers found that for every ball that batters made contact with in 2010, Rogers added .011 home runs, up from a rate of just .002 from 2005 to 2009. That puts Rogers Centre in 2010 among the top 3 percent of home run ballparks since 1950.
                              But only the Blue Jays, and not their opponents, got a home run boost in Toronto. When the Jays were on the road in 2010, they hit home runs in 4 percent of plate appearances in which they made contact, compared with an AL average of 3.6 percent. At Rogers, their home run on contact rate soared to 5.4 percent, which is a home-field advantage seven times the magnitude teams typically enjoy.
                              Opposing batters, however, actually homered on contact at a below-average rate in Toronto. As a result, the power differential between home and visiting hitters at Rogers in 2010 was the third largest of any park in any season over the past 60 years (see chart).
                              By themselves, these numbers are circumstantial evidence. Unsupported by data, the four players' accounts might describe a scheme of uncertain impact. And without proper context, the Yankees' decision to mask their signs could be chalked up to paranoia. But together, the numbers, the stories and the actions indicate one certainty: Every pitch to a Blue Jay in Toronto is worth watching.
                              Australian Rules Football...just sayin'

                              Comment

                              • bukktown
                                MVP
                                • Jan 2007
                                • 3257

                                #30
                                Re: Losing team accuses Winning team of cheating....again

                                Originally posted by Majingir
                                Last year it was the Red Sox/Yankees.

                                This year, it's the O's....




                                This is getting annoying. Will teams ever just admit they lose instead of blaming a team for cheating. They sound like a bunch of 10 year olds whose only reason for losing is cause the other team cheated.

                                Like I said last year when people accused the Jays of this(as well as for the past 5+ years), if they really were doing this, one of their former players for sure would have said that the Jays do this.

                                Wells,Overbay,Hill,Glaus,Hillenbrand(left on bad note),Burnett(was a pitcher,but left on a bad note) as well as any other player on the roster from 2005-2011 would have probably said something about this issue. But nobody is, so that should be proof right there that Jays aren't doing what teams(aka the AL EAST teams) are accusing them of doing.

                                And if teams are really concerned about this stuff, why not just film the OF stands and get proof that someone is actually signaling signs to the Jays hitters.

                                Really wanna get peoples opinions from other teams(not just Jays fans) on this issue.
                                Like 10 yr olds?

                                No more like Oscar Samuel Poster aka O.S. Poster accusing opponent of playing unsim!

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