2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

[HatTrick]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

I'm definitely not saying that Jeter isn't good, and he has certainly proven himself on a bigger stage. But Tejada's got three years running now of 30 HRs and 100 RBIs, which is good for a first baseman or a corner outfielder, let alone a shortstop.

I think Jeter's new teammate has proven that the leadership role (supposedly Jeter's biggest argument for being better than Tejada or Garciaparra) isn't quite as difficult to fill as some would like to believe. Giambi was the "heart and soul" of the A's before he left, but they haven't skipped a beat since, as other players have capably filled in to lead the team.

If Jeter were to get hurt, I really don't think the Yankees would be affected much. Giambi, or Bernie Williams, or Clemens, or Posada, or someone like that would quickly step in to fill his role in the clubhouse and on the field.

Anyway, check out these stat lines, and tell me again that Jeter is the 2nd best shortstop in baseball:

Renteria: 474 ABs, 64 R, 30 2B, 9 HRs, 65 RBIs, 16 SBs, .783 OPS, .302 AVG.

Eckstein: 516 ABs, 94 R, 21 2B, 7 HRs, 57 RBIs, 20 SBs, .763 OPS, .290 AVG.

D. Jeter: 561 ABs, 108 R, 20 2B, 16 HRs, 66 RBIs, 30 SB, .798 OPS, .301 AVG.

Not a huge leap over Eckstein or Renteria. I'd still take Tejada second and Garciaparra third for my money (although I'm wavering a bit here - as long as Nomar can prove that for the most part he'll stay healthy, he and Tejada are pretty close).

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Like I said before, not by his stats....but his WORTH to his team..........what he DOES for the team. A-Rod is stats guy, but he wont lead [censored]. Granted he doesnt have pitching.....but he definitly has the offensive partners.

IMO youre nothing if you cant win.

[cookusu]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Matrix,

People always resort to the "he's a winner argument" when the facts don't obviously back them up. It's tough to argue with that logic since it is just your belief.

Being on a winner has a lot to do with luck and not very much to do with your talent level. A great example from hockey is Ray Bourque for 20 years he was a great defensemen but never won the Stanley Cup, then he gets traded to the Av's, a talented team and they win. Did Ray Borque suddenly get better in his 40's? I doubt it, he finally was in a situation where he had the chance to win. This shouldn't change the fact that he was a great player all along.

Mark Grace is another good example of this. Was he the best first basemen in baseball last year cause the D-backs won the World Series? by your logic he would be.

As for AROD, I have read many articles about what a hardworker he is and a good leader, he can't pitch for the Rangers as well. He is in a tough situation, much like Ernie Banks.

Lets face it Tejada is finally getting some pub, cause of the winning streak and keep in mind that the A's play in probably the worst hitters park in baseball.

Also just checked out that Tejada has like 135 more total chances than Jeter, hard to say for sure but it would seem he has more range.

Don't forget to look at Slugging Percentage as well. Jeter is at .418 and Rodriguez is at .640 something and both Tejada and Nomar are over .500.

A quick way to get a players offensive worth that is fairly accurate is to add his OBP and Slugg%.

[TheMatrix31]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Mark Grace wasnt as big a part of the team as Derek Jeter......so that argument isnt that fair.

I'm not taking anything away from A-Rod, he's an excellent player and arguably THE BEST at shortstop. But IMO, you have to win to have my respect, maybe A-Rod will down the road if Hicks gives them a good pitching staff.

Tejada is an excellent SS, and is way better than Nomar IMO. Tejada has always been underrated, and like someone earlier said, 30 HR and 100 RBI for 3 seasons straight, is a great accomplishment.

[HatTrick]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Yeah, but I also think what he's "doing" for the team is overrated (not worthless of course, just a bit too exaggerated/overhyped). Giambi was supposedly the Jeter of the A's. Now that he's gone, others have stepped up.

Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Jeter on my team. I just think it's funny to constantly see him being ranked near the top of the list of shortstops in baseball, when he clearly belongs no higher than 4th. That's what playing in NY for a perrenial contender will do for you though.

[Heelfan71]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

I would gladly take any of them on my team. I don't like Arod, but he is good.

[brendanrfoley]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

You have to earn respect by winning?

By your logic, do you even know how many players have garnered no respect from you? Ted Williams tops the list.

Jeter wins because Steinbrenner has more money than god. It is easy to win the Yankees payroll is almost 100 million dollars more than the A's, and a good 50+ million over everybody else.

Baseball is a team sport, and the burden to win you are placing on A-Rod alone is unfair.

[Will]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Baseball is probably the one sport where it's nearly impossible to take a game over by yourself. Even if you hit a home run every time you bat, and get the out every time a ball is hit to you, your team could still get killed 15-4.

The "he's not a winner" argument just doesn't fly. Put ARod on the Yankees, and put Jeter on the Rangers, and then let's see what happens. Let's see Jeter, this supposed great leader, seemingly the best since Napoleon, let's see him lead the freaking Rangers to a series. It won't happen.

It's a weak argument, and it's one being used to desperately defend Jeter. Jeter's a very good player, but better than ARod, Nomar, or Tejada?

[Redfield]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

I agree with Will 100% on this one. Jeter's power numbers really aren't even close to A-Rod, Nomar, or Tejada's. And his defense is no better than the other three either. Jeter is in a very unique situation, playing on a team surrounded by big talent.

[cookusu]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Matrix,

D-backs no World Series before Mark Grace, then they get Grace and they win a world Series. My point is, it helps to be in the right place at the right time and as others have pointed out, in baseball it is tough for one guy to have as much impact as You are claiming Jeter has on the Yankees.

My other point is are you going to say that Mark Grace or Ray Bourque is now a better player because they won a championship? Don't minimize Grace's impact he is a great guy in the clubhouse and he saves all kind of runs with his glove over at first and he is a great interview and chicks dig him, he must be a winner.

[FatPitcher]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

I could be wrong, but I don't think Nolan Ryan got any WS rings either, except maybe in his first couple seasons when he wasn't even good. Same with Biggio and Bagwell, Mike Scott, and so on. I think what players do in a 162 game season is more representative of their individual ability than what their entire team does in a couple series. But that's just me.

[cookusu]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Ryan was on the 69 Mets but was not an established pitcher at the time.

Their are plenty of examples of very good to great players who have never won a championship. I agree with FatPitcher I would rather rate guys on what they did over their careers then focus on championships, sure it is part of the equation but needs to be kept in team perspective.

[imported_Administrator]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Thank you cook, as a Ryan fan I was going to point out the Miracle Mets of 69.

He only played on one game that series but did earn a save as a reliever and gave up no runs.

[brendanrfoley]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

As good as Ryan was, and he was VERY good, he was also only a lifetime .524 pitcher.

In my opinion, he was great but never really won as many as he should - or could have.

[imported_Administrator]

Re: 2nd Best Shortstop in Baseball?

Well playing for quality teams like the Angels and Rangers can do that to you.

Not going to rip on the Astros since they did have a few good teams while he was there.