2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

[TheNumber35]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

Eh, all the sabermetrics talk and people talking down to others at times has turned me off from talking baseball at OS.

And it's a little different than the football forum where there is a specific thread for each game so when I'm watching the A's if I want to talk about that game I have to go through all the posts.

Plus there just aren't enough A's fans for me to care much about discussing the game. Me, mabster and 37 could just PM back and forth about it if we wanted lol.

Plus the trades were an ongoing thing that we could discuss throughout the day at our own pace and that makes it a different beast than the game thread.

I tend to agree with everything you said here kehlis. I'm not so old school that I think traditional statistics are the only valid way of looking at things...but I also think it's ridiculous to throw them out completely and say anyone who believes/looks at them is a moron (clearly I'm paraphrasing.) There's a lot of pissing contests on the baseball forums here on OS, and it really turns me away from wanting to discuss anything here.

How you feel about the games is exactly why I stopped coming into the game threads to post. If I want to talk about Detroit, I have to scan for people who are talking about Detroit. Whereas in a trade thread, everything is being discussed by everyone. Most OS'ers don't give a second thought to how the Tigers bullpen pitched yesterday but every single baseball fan had some opinion on the deals (or lack of a deal for some teams) happening yesterday.

[Sportsforever]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

Eh, all the sabermetrics talk and people talking down to others at times has turned me off from talking baseball at OS.

And it's a little different than the football forum where there is a specific thread for each game so when I'm watching the A's if I want to talk about that game I have to go through all the posts.

Plus there just aren't enough A's fans for me to care much about discussing the game. Me, mabster and 37 could just PM back and forth about it if we wanted lol.

Plus the trades were an ongoing thing that we could discuss throughout the day at our own pace and that makes it a different beast than the game thread.

I tend to agree with everything you said here kehlis. I'm not so old school that I think traditional statistics are the only valid way of looking at things...but I also think it's ridiculous to throw them out completely and say anyone who believes/looks at them is a moron (clearly I'm paraphrasing.) There's a lot of pissing contests on the baseball forums here on OS, and it really turns me away from wanting to discuss anything here.

How you feel about the games is exactly why I stopped coming into the game threads to post. If I want to talk about Detroit, I have to scan for people who are talking about Detroit. Whereas in a trade thread, everything is being discussed by everyone. Most OS'ers don't give a second thought to how the Tigers bullpen pitched yesterday but every single baseball fan had some opinion on the deals (or lack of a deal for some teams) happening yesterday.

I have to agree here. I like saber metrics and believe they have a place, but this forum in the last 4-5 years has chased off anyone who doesn't wasn't to talk about them. The general attitude here has become if you aren't dropping wRC+ or wRAA's you don't deserve to be a baseball fan and that, IMO, isn't good.

[AC]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I'd like to chime in and say that some of the stuff like Brian Kenney's War on Wins is just absolutely, incredibly incompetent. There's plenty of room for statistics like ERA, Wins, and the triple slash line. It's just that they get misused sometimes. But then, so do wRC+, wOBA, etc.

The only time I'll call someone out on a stat is if they're misusing it. The traditional stats have a place in baseball. I'll object if someone says a pitcher with 20 wins but a 5.6 xFIP is a valuable pitcher. But if someone cites 15 wins along with a 3.7 xFIP and 3.4 ERA and 8.9 SO/9, that's cool.

Traditional stats are cool. So are new stats. So is just watching the damn game. But it's when people misuse the stats that we get into massive arguments that clog up threads. I don't post much in the baseball threads so I don't have a great idea of most of the arguments you guys are referencing. But no one should be shunned for using a traditional statistic, nor an advanced statistic.

I'm just as happy to call out someone using wRC+ as batting average, or xFIP as Wins.

[Sportsforever]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I'd like to chime in and say that some of the stuff like Brian Kenney's War on Wins is just absolutely, incredibly incompetent. There's plenty of room for statistics like ERA, Wins, and the triple slash line. It's just that they get misused sometimes. But then, so do wRC+, wOBA, etc.

The only time I'll call someone out on a stat is if they're misusing it. The traditional stats have a place in baseball. I'll object if someone says a pitcher with 20 wins but a 5.6 xFIP is a valuable pitcher. But if someone cites 15 wins along with a 3.7 xFIP and 3.4 ERA and 8.9 SO/9, that's cool.

Traditional stats are cool. So are new stats. So is just watching the damn game. But it's when people misuse the stats that we get into massive arguments that clog up threads. I don't post much in the baseball threads so I don't have a great idea of most of the arguments you guys are referencing. But no one should be shunned for using a traditional statistic, nor an advanced statistic.

I'm just as happy to call out someone using wRC+ as batting average, or xFIP as Wins.

I would say a perfect example is in this very thread with the discussion on Matt Adams and Alan Craig. Countryboy didn't like trading Craig away and you bust out wRC+ to show how awful Craig has been and how good Adams has been.

Here's the thing - Countryboy wasn't disagreeing that Craig has been bad this year, just that he doesn't like the trade after Craig has ONE bad year. It's his opinion, but you came in blazing the saber stats to show how 'wrong' he is on the trade.

On the flip side of the coin, the guys who aren't into Saber need to acknowledge the amazing work being done to advance our knowledge of the game. I just feel like both sides shut each other down and we get so much less talk on this forum than we used to.

[AC]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I would say a perfect example is in this very thread with the discussion on Matt Adams and Alan Craig. Countryboy didn't like trading Craig away and you bust out wRC+ to show how awful Craig has been and how good Adams has been.

Here's the thing - Countryboy wasn't disagreeing that Craig has been bad this year, just that he doesn't like the trade after Craig has ONE bad year. It's his opinion, but you came in blazing the saber stats to show how 'wrong' he is on the trade.

On the flip side of the coin, the guys who aren't into Saber need to acknowledge the amazing work being done to advance our knowledge of the game. I just feel like both sides shut each other down and we get so much less talk on this forum than we used to.

I'd argue that my viewpoint was that Craig has been bad this year and that I chose to represent that through the medium of saber stats. I could have said he was bad based on his batting average or anything, I just did it on a medium I was more comfortable with. I personally think Craig has been pretty bad, but you can view that traditionally or sabermetrically. If the traditional stats says Craig has been great, but advanced stats say otherwise, then further analysis is obviously necessary. But Craig is hitting like .250 and Adams is hitting like .315. Even by traditional stats, my opinion stands.

And again, I think my opinion was independent of saber stats, that was just the medium through which I posted them.

I just hate when both sides don't give each other a chance. When I try and explains DIPS to someone, I feel like they think I'm talking down to them and I immediately get verbally abused, lol. But I'm more than happy to go to a game and talk batting average with someone. I just hope both sides give each other a chance and at least hear out the other side. It's just the worst when someone automatically dismisses the entire way I see baseball because it's "sabermetrics."

[Sportsforever]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I'd argue that my viewpoint was that Craig has been bad this year and that I chose to represent that through the medium of saber stats. I could have said he was bad based on his batting average or anything, I just did it on a medium I was more comfortable with. I personally think Craig has been pretty bad, but you can view that traditionally or sabermetrically. If the traditional stats says Craig has been great, but advanced stats say otherwise, then further analysis is obviously necessary. But Craig is hitting like .250 and Adams is hitting like .315. Even by traditional stats, my opinion stands.

And again, I think my opinion was independent of saber stats, that was just the medium through which I posted them.

I just hate when both sides don't give each other a chance. When I try and explains DIPS to someone, I feel like they think I'm talking down to them and I immediately get verbally abused, lol. But I'm more than happy to go to a game and talk batting average with someone. I just hope both sides give each other a chance and at least hear out the other side. It's just the worst when someone automatically dismisses the entire way I see baseball because it's "sabermetrics."

I get all that…and I agree with you on the 'both sides giving the other a chance'. Here was an example where you and Countryboy ACTUALLY agreed on something (Craig is bad this year), but Countryboy just doesn't like the trade for a variety of reasons. His opinion is just as valid as a fan, but then we feel we need to 'educate' him on why he's wrong because the saber stats show that Craig's BABIP will regress, his clutchness doesn't exist, or that he's an awful defender.

On another note…all of the saber stuff is great, but one of the fantastic things about baseball stats (basic ones) is EVERYONE knows what they are. If you talk batting average, OBP, HR's, RBI with a fan everyone is speaking the same language. When saber folks start talking DIPS, BABIP, wRC+, OPS+, WAR, VORP, etc, it's like they assume everyone in the room knows what that is (and honestly, I think most folks who regurgitate these things can't tell you how to calculate them). If you tell another fan "Matt Adams has a wRC+ of 135", while to you that means he's pretty good, the other fan might be completely lost…we need to do a better job of articulating the metrics and getting past that 'language' barrier IMO.

[AC]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I get all that…and I agree with you on the 'both sides giving the other a chance'. Here was an example where you and Countryboy ACTUALLY agreed on something (Craig is bad this year), but Countryboy just doesn't like the trade for a variety of reasons. His opinion is just as valid as a fan, but then we feel we need to 'educate' him on why he's wrong because the saber stats show that Craig's BABIP will regress, his clutchness doesn't exist, or that he's an awful defender.

On another note…all of the saber stuff is great, but one of the fantastic things about baseball stats (basic ones) is EVERYONE knows what they are. If you talk batting average, OBP, HR's, RBI with a fan everyone is speaking the same language. When saber folks start talking DIPS, BABIP, wRC+, OPS+, WAR, VORP, etc, it's like they assume everyone in the room knows what that is (and honestly, I think most folks who regurgitate these things can't tell you how to calculate them). If you tell another fan "Matt Adams has a wRC+ of 135", while to you that means he's pretty good, the other fan might be completely lost…we need to do a better job of articulating the metrics and getting past that 'language' barrier IMO.

I don't think defense is sabermetric. Seeing a great defensive play is something any baseball fan can appreciate. From the traditional defense of Roberto Alomar to the sabr defense of Jhonny Peralta. But I feel no need to educate him. I specifically stated later that I wasn't trying to offend him as I was fending off verbal attacks lol. He comes off as very knowledgeable about the sport. My opinion was more conceptual (Adams is good - Craig isn't great - it's opening up room) and if he disagrees that's cool but I have my own opinion.

Yeah, Jays fans have been working on doing this. Bunch of buddies I have started a sabermetrics blog that aims to connect traditionalists to sabermetrics. I try and say something like "his offense has been 35% better than league average" rather than saying a 135 wRC+, but sometimes, yeah, it slips out. Hopefully the stats will be mainstream soon enough so that even if people don't agree, they can at least know about it.

[Sportsforever]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I don't think defense is sabermetric. Seeing a great defensive play is something any baseball fan can appreciate. From the traditional defense of Roberto Alomar to the sabr defense of Jhonny Peralta. But I feel no need to educate him. I specifically stated later that I wasn't trying to offend him as I was fending off verbal attacks lol. He comes off as very knowledgeable about the sport. My opinion was more conceptual (Adams is good - Craig isn't great - it's opening up room) and if he disagrees that's cool but I have my own opinion.

Yeah, Jays fans have been working on doing this. Bunch of buddies I have started a sabermetrics blog that aims to connect traditionalists to sabermetrics. I try and say something like "his offense has been 35% better than league average" rather than saying a 135 wRC+, but sometimes, yeah, it slips out. Hopefully the stats will be mainstream soon enough so that even if people don't agree, they can at least know about it.

It's funny you mention Alomar…not sure when you started watching baseball, but he was a lightening rod for the Saber crowd vs the traditional crowd. All those years in the '90s he's winning GG's and turning in highlight reel plays and you had the Saber crowd saying that at best he's average with the glove, realistically he's awful. I think it was in 1996 or so that Peter Gammons made the statement (I'm paraphrasing) "I wish these guys would take a minute to stop looking at their computers and actually watch the guy in the field…he's the most creative and amazing 2B I've ever seen play the game".

EDIT: I re-read the first sentence and didn't mean for it to sound snarky with the "not sure when you started watching baseball". That was a legitimate 'not sure if you were watching baseball when this happened' and not intended to be a condescending remark.

[elTodd]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I think the issue with many proponents of sabermetrics is that a good number of baseball fans seemingly don't want to investigate more about a player. They don't care about the other stats.

Just look at the Masterson trade. Many fans here in St. Louis took one look at his ERA this year and said he was worthless. They didn't care to look at anything else once they saw that.

I don't think its a matter of educating people as much as it is trying to explain the reasoning for their own opinions. I've had many conversations with Cardinal fans about Allen Craig this season and I've tried to explain why I think he's been less than stellar.

I've also had numerous conversations as to why I dislike Wins and RBIs so much. Many times it seems to fall on deaf ears as people don't seem to want to further understand the game of baseball.

[AC]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

It's funny you mention Alomar…not sure when you started watching baseball, but he was a lightening rod for the Saber crowd vs the traditional crowd. All those years in the '90s he's winning GG's and turning in highlight reel plays and you had the Saber crowd saying that at best he's average with the glove, realistically he's awful. I think it was in 1996 or so that Peter Gammons made the statement (I'm paraphrasing) "I wish these guys would take a minute to stop looking at their computers and actually watch the guy in the field…he's the most creative and amazing 2B I've ever seen play the game".

EDIT: I re-read the first sentence and didn't mean for it to sound snarky with the "not sure when you started watching baseball". That was a legitimate 'not sure if you were watching baseball when this happened' and not intended to be a condescending remark.

That's exactly why I chose that example! Retrosheet data is used for Alomar's defensive stats, so it probably isn't accurate, but people take it as gospel. I'm more inclined to use the eyetest because the data may not be accurate.

Wasn't snarky at all. I wasn't even alive for the Jays' glory years lol.

[Bull_Market]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

Eh, all the sabermetrics talk and people talking down to others at times has turned me off from talking baseball at OS.

And it's a little different than the football forum where there is a specific thread for each game so when I'm watching the A's if I want to talk about that game I have to go through all the posts.

Plus there just aren't enough A's fans for me to care much about discussing the game. Me, mabster and 37 could just PM back and forth about it if we wanted lol.

Plus the trades were an ongoing thing that we could discuss throughout the day at our own pace and that makes it a different beast than the game thread.

This is quite possibly the best post I've ever read here. The "I understand convoluted Sabermetrics, I'm a more astute fan than you" is extremely off-putting.

[countryboy]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I've been following baseball now for 35 years. The only stats that I acknowledge are the traditional stats. I'm not saying that the Sabermetric stats are worthless as a tool, just that I don't care to know them. I honestly have no idea what any of those stats mean nor do I care to know. Traditional stats have worked for 100's of years and that is what I'll continue to use, along with my knowledge of the game, as a tool to back my opinion/point.

In regards to AC and myself discussing the Craig trade, I honestly didn't feel as though I was being told how "wrong" I was, but rather I felt as though AC was backing his opinion (of course the stat he used I didn't understand), but again I didn't feel attacked or as though I was being put in my place. We disagree on the value of the trade and that happens, especially when a fan (in this case myself) is involved, because no matter what, there is some bias, whether positive or negative involved.

[AC]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I found it funny a Jays fan was trying to convince a Cards fan they made a good deal lol. Ever since the Rasmus deal there's been a ton of animosity on most boards between the fan bases.

[SPTO]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I found it funny a Jays fan was trying to convince a Cards fan they made a good deal lol. Ever since the Rasmus deal there's been a ton of animosity on most boards between the fan bases.

Eh, Jays fans shouldn't complain too much. We were gambling on a headache player who has potential up the wazoo. On the other hand it'd be nice to have Zep in the bullpen these days (I know he's in Cleveland now but yeah...)

[AC]

Re: 2014 MLB Trade Deadline Thread

I still like that trade for us. Cards got what they wanted too though.