records beaten with more games played now vs. then

[mgoblue]

Is it really deserving of an asterisk when you beat such an old record even though you have more games in the schedule nowadays? Some people discount Ichiro's record, but if having extra games makes it so much easier then why hasn't it been beaten before? I guess I don't buy the "they had more games" argument, because in my eyes the players on every team are of a much higher calibur than they were in the past. Your scrubs nowadays are better than the scrubs were in the 30's. Just an interesting topic and wondered what those of you with more baseball knowledge thought.

[SPTO]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

There are two schools of thought:

1) There should be an asterisk because of the number of games it took X player to break X record. It doesn't matter what kind of record it is etc etc

2) This is the school of thought I ascribe to. In some ways it's an even greater feat because hitters are facing much more difficulty with specialist pitchers and pitches that were not around in the old days. You also have to take the media spotlight into account as well as travel.


Interestingly enough you don't hear much of this asterisk talk when it comes to pitchers breaking single season records.

[SPTO]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

There are two schools of thought:

1) There should be an asterisk because of the number of games it took X player to break X record. It doesn't matter what kind of record it is etc etc

2) This is the school of thought I ascribe to. In some ways it's an even greater feat because hitters are facing much more difficulty with specialist pitchers and pitches that were not around in the old days. You also have to take the media spotlight into account as well as travel.


Interestingly enough you don't hear much of this asterisk talk when it comes to pitchers breaking single season records.

[Stoud]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

I also subscribe to the second belief. Infact, I think the only argument you could make is that because the Mariners had such a bad season, Ichiro was pitched to alot more often, and not pitched around. Even at that point you have to just look at the style of hitter he is in that Baseball has NEVER seen the kind of hitter Ichiro is, with his own particular goofy style that back in Japan everyone used to second guess him about, that Lou was quoted as saying "I don't think this guy can hit", as shown on ESPN he combines many different styles of hitting and compared to your average hitter with above average speed, Ichiro gets out of the box an average THREE STEPS ahead of everyone else. You also have to consider the work ahead of him, though. He's what, already in his 30's now, and he has at least another 9 seasons of uninjured spectacular play to complete to get to 3,000 hits, and not long after that he'll have to retire. I think there's no doubt by the end of his career he'll be considered one of the best hitters the world of Baseball has ever seen, but he might not be able to break Pete's Record, just because of how late he came into the game. But hey, if he ever does get that far, he'll have done it in less time than Pete no hands down, and you can't argue after that that he would have been the greatest hitter of all time. I think it's important that Ichiro came to the MLB and did this, and it would be absolutely brilliant if he broke even more records, because even now in America there is Racism just as there was 50 years ago, and along the lines of Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Frank Robinson, and even Barry Bonds, Ichiro is showing the country that colors and races don't matter, that once you get down to it, any man can and will break another man's records with his greatness, because that's what Records are there for. I personally look forward to watching this guy for the next Ten years in hopes that he can miraculously keep it up, in hopes that he will have few injuries and break more Records. I can't wait to tell my Kids one day about a Giant named Bonds, but I especially can't wait to tell them about a Scrawny man named "Ichiro" who with hard work and perserverence, turned the Baseball world on its ear, and maybe I can tell them that he became the greatest hitter of all time.

[Stoud]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

I also subscribe to the second belief. Infact, I think the only argument you could make is that because the Mariners had such a bad season, Ichiro was pitched to alot more often, and not pitched around. Even at that point you have to just look at the style of hitter he is in that Baseball has NEVER seen the kind of hitter Ichiro is, with his own particular goofy style that back in Japan everyone used to second guess him about, that Lou was quoted as saying "I don't think this guy can hit", as shown on ESPN he combines many different styles of hitting and compared to your average hitter with above average speed, Ichiro gets out of the box an average THREE STEPS ahead of everyone else. You also have to consider the work ahead of him, though. He's what, already in his 30's now, and he has at least another 9 seasons of uninjured spectacular play to complete to get to 3,000 hits, and not long after that he'll have to retire. I think there's no doubt by the end of his career he'll be considered one of the best hitters the world of Baseball has ever seen, but he might not be able to break Pete's Record, just because of how late he came into the game. But hey, if he ever does get that far, he'll have done it in less time than Pete no hands down, and you can't argue after that that he would have been the greatest hitter of all time. I think it's important that Ichiro came to the MLB and did this, and it would be absolutely brilliant if he broke even more records, because even now in America there is Racism just as there was 50 years ago, and along the lines of Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Frank Robinson, and even Barry Bonds, Ichiro is showing the country that colors and races don't matter, that once you get down to it, any man can and will break another man's records with his greatness, because that's what Records are there for. I personally look forward to watching this guy for the next Ten years in hopes that he can miraculously keep it up, in hopes that he will have few injuries and break more Records. I can't wait to tell my Kids one day about a Giant named Bonds, but I especially can't wait to tell them about a Scrawny man named "Ichiro" who with hard work and perserverence, turned the Baseball world on its ear, and maybe I can tell them that he became the greatest hitter of all time.

[rsox]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

The difference between now and then is 8 games, in 1920 (Sisler's year) they played 154 games compared to the 162 that they play now, if the margin were greater then maybe there should be an asterisk, but not for 8 games. since it happend in Ichiro's 159th game it took him 5 more games than Sisler played to break the record. Look at the Home Run record, it took Hank Aaron 2890 more AB's than Babe Ruth to reach 714, it took Aaron 11293 career AB's to reach 715, it will likely take Barry Bonds 1800 fewer AB's than that to reach 756, if he stays on his current pace he will hit 756 in april 2006 which will be the start of Bonds' 21st season, Aaron hit 755 in 23 full seasons. should there be an asterisk for Aaron?...maybe, but there's not. Bonds will take less time than Aaron but more time than Ruth to become Baseball's Home Run king.
As for why you don't really hear about the asterisk when it comes to pitchers, back then Starting Pitchers would average 40 starts per season. today they average about 31 starts per season, so logically it would take todays pitchers longer to break the records set back in the old days.

[rsox]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

The difference between now and then is 8 games, in 1920 (Sisler's year) they played 154 games compared to the 162 that they play now, if the margin were greater then maybe there should be an asterisk, but not for 8 games. since it happend in Ichiro's 159th game it took him 5 more games than Sisler played to break the record. Look at the Home Run record, it took Hank Aaron 2890 more AB's than Babe Ruth to reach 714, it took Aaron 11293 career AB's to reach 715, it will likely take Barry Bonds 1800 fewer AB's than that to reach 756, if he stays on his current pace he will hit 756 in april 2006 which will be the start of Bonds' 21st season, Aaron hit 755 in 23 full seasons. should there be an asterisk for Aaron?...maybe, but there's not. Bonds will take less time than Aaron but more time than Ruth to become Baseball's Home Run king.
As for why you don't really hear about the asterisk when it comes to pitchers, back then Starting Pitchers would average 40 starts per season. today they average about 31 starts per season, so logically it would take todays pitchers longer to break the records set back in the old days.

[mjb2124]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

This is a really tough one and one that I don't think has a correct answer. Ever since Ichiro broke the record, I've spent sometime looking at this issue from both sides. I guess you could call me a baseball stat nut because I can look over stats 24/7/365 and not get bored. Now if I could only get a job with my hometown Pirates doing this line of work!!

Anyhow, my opinion is that each record should be in the record book with a mention of the number of games. Something to this effect:

Most base hits, season
Ichiro Suzuki, Seattle Mariners, 2004 - 262 or whatever he ends up with (162 game schedule)
George Sisler, St. Louis Browns, 1920 - 257 (154 game schedule)

Now onto the debate. Like Sportsman said, there are 2 sides to this and I don't think either is wrong.

Ichiro plays in a league of 30 teams. Sisler played in a segregated league of 16 teams. Is the 14 team difference enough to offset the segregation of the league that Sisler faced (in terms of average opponent skill)? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think it's quantifiable.

Ichiro played in an era where defense was much better. Some of that is due to the pristine field conditions in this era and some of it is due to a larger importance placed on defense. Ichiro also plays night games as well as day games. Sisler only played day games where it's much easier to pickup the ball IMO.

Both Ichiro and Sisler were much different hitters. Sisler had a much better SLG % and more total bases. Doesn't take anything away from what Ichiro did, but shows they were very different hitters and Sisler was able to drive in runs and hit for power during his record.

Anyhow, I'm sure I could go on for pages and pages of the difference's in today's game and the past. However, I won't bore anyone with that.

What both players did was amazing. It's even more amazing that Sislers record lasted as long as it did. That's why I think both players should be in the record book with the number of games beside each players name. It just makes sense to do it that way for all 154 game records and 162 game records.

PS - What I'm waiting to see is someone break Dimmagio's hitting streak. To me that's one of the most amazing records in all of baseball. It's even more amazing when you realize that he hit in 17 straight games AFTER his streak was broken. Not to mention that a few of his outs during the record ending game were suspect at best. According to some baseball historians, baseball wanted his streak to end and a few close plays at first were called outs when he should've been safe.

[mjb2124]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

This is a really tough one and one that I don't think has a correct answer. Ever since Ichiro broke the record, I've spent sometime looking at this issue from both sides. I guess you could call me a baseball stat nut because I can look over stats 24/7/365 and not get bored. Now if I could only get a job with my hometown Pirates doing this line of work!!

Anyhow, my opinion is that each record should be in the record book with a mention of the number of games. Something to this effect:

Most base hits, season
Ichiro Suzuki, Seattle Mariners, 2004 - 262 or whatever he ends up with (162 game schedule)
George Sisler, St. Louis Browns, 1920 - 257 (154 game schedule)

Now onto the debate. Like Sportsman said, there are 2 sides to this and I don't think either is wrong.

Ichiro plays in a league of 30 teams. Sisler played in a segregated league of 16 teams. Is the 14 team difference enough to offset the segregation of the league that Sisler faced (in terms of average opponent skill)? Maybe, maybe not. I don't think it's quantifiable.

Ichiro played in an era where defense was much better. Some of that is due to the pristine field conditions in this era and some of it is due to a larger importance placed on defense. Ichiro also plays night games as well as day games. Sisler only played day games where it's much easier to pickup the ball IMO.

Both Ichiro and Sisler were much different hitters. Sisler had a much better SLG % and more total bases. Doesn't take anything away from what Ichiro did, but shows they were very different hitters and Sisler was able to drive in runs and hit for power during his record.

Anyhow, I'm sure I could go on for pages and pages of the difference's in today's game and the past. However, I won't bore anyone with that.

What both players did was amazing. It's even more amazing that Sislers record lasted as long as it did. That's why I think both players should be in the record book with the number of games beside each players name. It just makes sense to do it that way for all 154 game records and 162 game records.

PS - What I'm waiting to see is someone break Dimmagio's hitting streak. To me that's one of the most amazing records in all of baseball. It's even more amazing when you realize that he hit in 17 straight games AFTER his streak was broken. Not to mention that a few of his outs during the record ending game were suspect at best. According to some baseball historians, baseball wanted his streak to end and a few close plays at first were called outs when he should've been safe.

[SPTO]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

joeboo ever thought of applying for a statician (sp) job for the Pirates radio or tv (more likely radio)

I also appreciate your love for stats as it helps make my decisions much more informed.

[SPTO]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

joeboo ever thought of applying for a statician (sp) job for the Pirates radio or tv (more likely radio)

I also appreciate your love for stats as it helps make my decisions much more informed.

[mjb2124]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

joeboo ever thought of applying for a statician (sp) job for the Pirates radio or tv (more likely radio)

I also appreciate your love for stats as it helps make my decisions much more informed.

Well I graduated from college with a Computer Science degree and promptly sent the Pirates a resume to do any IT work figuring any foot in the door could lead to something else, but never heard back. I never saw any openings, but figured I'd try to send one to them anyhow!

I think they'd want someone with a math degree to do stats, but don't know. I might send another resume since it's been 4.5 years. Ideally with a comp sci degree, I'd love to do database work with stats. That would be a blast for me. Much better than this networking stuff!!

Anyhow I appreciate the compliment. Obviously I love baseball and it's something I can never get enough of. Now only if the Pirates could find a way to win!!

[mjb2124]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

joeboo ever thought of applying for a statician (sp) job for the Pirates radio or tv (more likely radio)

I also appreciate your love for stats as it helps make my decisions much more informed.

Well I graduated from college with a Computer Science degree and promptly sent the Pirates a resume to do any IT work figuring any foot in the door could lead to something else, but never heard back. I never saw any openings, but figured I'd try to send one to them anyhow!

I think they'd want someone with a math degree to do stats, but don't know. I might send another resume since it's been 4.5 years. Ideally with a comp sci degree, I'd love to do database work with stats. That would be a blast for me. Much better than this networking stuff!!

Anyhow I appreciate the compliment. Obviously I love baseball and it's something I can never get enough of. Now only if the Pirates could find a way to win!!

[Karlos05]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

Well I graduated from college with a Computer Science degree and promptly sent the Pirates a resume to do any IT work figuring any foot in the door could lead to something else, but never heard back. I never saw any openings, but figured I'd try to send one to them anyhow!

I think they'd want someone with a math degree to do stats, but don't know. I might send another resume since it's been 4.5 years. Ideally with a comp sci degree, I'd love to do database work with stats. That would be a blast for me. Much better than this networking stuff!!

Anyhow I appreciate the compliment. Obviously I love baseball and it's something I can never get enough of. Now only if the Pirates could find a way to win!!

If you got in maybe you could talk some sense to some of the people in that organization, because it's getting tough to watch. Go in and crack some skulls and for god's sake don't let them sign Randall Simon again.

[Karlos05]

Re: records beaten with more games played now vs. then

Well I graduated from college with a Computer Science degree and promptly sent the Pirates a resume to do any IT work figuring any foot in the door could lead to something else, but never heard back. I never saw any openings, but figured I'd try to send one to them anyhow!

I think they'd want someone with a math degree to do stats, but don't know. I might send another resume since it's been 4.5 years. Ideally with a comp sci degree, I'd love to do database work with stats. That would be a blast for me. Much better than this networking stuff!!

Anyhow I appreciate the compliment. Obviously I love baseball and it's something I can never get enough of. Now only if the Pirates could find a way to win!!

If you got in maybe you could talk some sense to some of the people in that organization, because it's getting tough to watch. Go in and crack some skulls and for god's sake don't let them sign Randall Simon again.