Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

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  • VanCitySportsGuy
    NYG_Meth
    • Feb 2003
    • 9351

    #1

    Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

    I've always liked Larkin and he is perhaps the most anonymous great player of our time (although one could argue Mr. Blue Miracle Raffy Palmero is that guy). That's not a selling point when the time comes for him to be considered for a ticket to Cooperstown. In 2004, he performed exactly how a great 40 year old shortstop should, providing below average but not horrible defence and hitting .289/.352/.419. Not that this performance affects his Hall chances one iota.

    Larkin, a Cincinnati native, was the 4th overall pick of the 1985 draft by the Reds, out of the University of Michigan. He spent the remainder of 1985 in double A, and then went .329/.373/.525 in triple A Denver in 1986 to earn a late season call-up to the big club. After an adjustment year in 1987, he emerged as a fine shortstop in 1988. He was consistently great from 1988-2000, hitting .300 with fine plate discipline and medium range power. He was a prolific and effective basestealer, succeeding on 83% of his attempts. His bugaboo has been injuries. He has played 150 games or more only 4 times in his career.

    Placing him offensively among the great shortstops is fairly easy. He was clearly better than Alan Trammell.

    Larkin had a fine defensive reputation, and won 3 Gold Gloves from 94-96 (when he was 30-32 and probably past his defensive prime).

    Here's where I get stats geeky:

    Larkin has 271 Runs Created Above Average, according to Lee Sinins' Baseball Encyclopedia. How many Runs Saved Above Average has he on defence? It seems likely that he saved 15-20 runs per 150 game season during his prime, taking into his above-average fielding percentage, and his out conversion rate on ground balls, and his double play performance. His prime lasted from age 23-27 (1987-1991), and taking into account his lost time accounted for approximately 4 seasons; he appears to have been a modestly above average defensive shortstop from age 28-31 (1992-1996) and perhaps saved 5-7 runs per season. I estimate that he saved about 100 runs above average over his career.

    Adding the two together, we have a total of 371 Runs Created and Saved Above Average. This places him clearly behind Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan and George Davis. I don't have enough reliable historical defence data for others to run totals. However, for any other retired shortstop, from Banks, Cronin and Boudreau to Yount, Cal Ripken Jr. and Alan Trammell, there are solid arguments that Larkin was as good or better. My best estimate is that Larkin is in a close knot with Boudreau and Ripken for 4th best shortstop, leaving aside the 4 Horseman (A-Rod, Nomar, Jeter, and Miggy) currently in their prime. To give a flavour of the argument, Ripken had 161 Runs Created Above Average, but appears to have been a superior defender to Larkin. Whether he was 110 runs better is dubious, and it is hard to know absent play-by-play information from Ripken's defensive prime in the early 1980s.

    Obviously a player who is at the end of his career arguably the fourth best of all time at his position should go into the Hall of Fame. Will Barry? That's a tough one. There is precedent for him to be excluded by the writers. Arky Vaughan was at the time of his retirement the 2nd best shortstop of all time, and clearly one of the top 3-4 players of the 30s, and yet the BBWAA passed him by. Fortunately, he was picked up by the Veterans Committee many years later. In 2010 or so, when Larkin becomes eligible for the Hall, the comparisons will be made with A-Rod and Nomar (with glossier power numbers), and Jeter (with all those rings and the hype ... who could forget about the dive he made into the stands last year). I can see Larkin being passed by, as Vaughan was. And then, it will be left to the Veterans Committee after 2025.

    I'm on the fence if Larkin will get in or not, but I feel like he deserves it.
  • Bucks06
    Banned
    • Jan 2005
    • 321

    #2
    Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

    I think its no question that Larkin is in the hall of Fame he defiently has hall of fame numbers and he did a lot of good things for the Reds.

    Comment

    • Bucks06
      Banned
      • Jan 2005
      • 321

      #3
      Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

      I think its no question that Larkin is in the hall of Fame he defiently has hall of fame numbers and he did a lot of good things for the Reds.

      Comment

      • SPTO
        binging
        • Feb 2003
        • 68046

        #4
        Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

        I think he's a HOF'er. Shortstops for a long time weren't offensive juggernauts like A-Rod, Jeter and Miggy. Larkin put up some great numbers offensively and as you've so eloquently showed he was a fine defensive SS.

        BTW where does Tony Fernandez fit in as far as defensive SS' because IIRC he was the best defensive SS of the 80s according to some stats.
        Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

        "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

        Comment

        • SPTO
          binging
          • Feb 2003
          • 68046

          #5
          Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

          I think he's a HOF'er. Shortstops for a long time weren't offensive juggernauts like A-Rod, Jeter and Miggy. Larkin put up some great numbers offensively and as you've so eloquently showed he was a fine defensive SS.

          BTW where does Tony Fernandez fit in as far as defensive SS' because IIRC he was the best defensive SS of the 80s according to some stats.
          Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

          "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

          Comment

          • glucklich
            Banned
            • Jun 2004
            • 4272

            #6
            Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

            No but since Phil Rizzuto is in the answer becomes yes.

            Comment

            • glucklich
              Banned
              • Jun 2004
              • 4272

              #7
              Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

              No but since Phil Rizzuto is in the answer becomes yes.

              Comment

              • Jwally
                MVP
                • Feb 2004
                • 963

                #8
                Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                Being the biased Reds fan that I am, I say he definitely deserves to be in. Considering how consistent he was for the Reds, there is no reason that he shouldn't be in it.

                Every year you could expect him to hit above .290 with 70 RBI, and every year he would pull through. I'm talking about the years that he wasn't hampered by injuries, or where age slowed him down. Even last year, as a 40 year old who only played in about half of the Reds' games, he still managed to bat .289.

                Also, he is a magician with the glove. Almost every game you would see a play where Barry would flat-out rob someone of a hit, being it diving and cutting off a ball up the middle, turning a double- play, or fielding one deep in the hole and gunning it to first.

                Without a doubt he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
                Clemson Tigers
                Cincinnati Bengals
                Cincinnati Reds
                Cincinnati Bearcats


                Comment

                • Jwally
                  MVP
                  • Feb 2004
                  • 963

                  #9
                  Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                  Being the biased Reds fan that I am, I say he definitely deserves to be in. Considering how consistent he was for the Reds, there is no reason that he shouldn't be in it.

                  Every year you could expect him to hit above .290 with 70 RBI, and every year he would pull through. I'm talking about the years that he wasn't hampered by injuries, or where age slowed him down. Even last year, as a 40 year old who only played in about half of the Reds' games, he still managed to bat .289.

                  Also, he is a magician with the glove. Almost every game you would see a play where Barry would flat-out rob someone of a hit, being it diving and cutting off a ball up the middle, turning a double- play, or fielding one deep in the hole and gunning it to first.

                  Without a doubt he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
                  Clemson Tigers
                  Cincinnati Bengals
                  Cincinnati Reds
                  Cincinnati Bearcats


                  Comment

                  • rsox
                    All Star
                    • Feb 2003
                    • 6309

                    #10
                    Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                    Barry Larkin is a career .295 hitter, he has 198 HR's and 960 RBI's, plus he stole 379 bases. Those are pretty good career numbers for a SS, if he played anyother position (other than maybe 2B) he probably would not get in, but i think he will. He may not be a first ballott (then again...), but i think he'll get in.

                    Looking at his numbers i think it would have been good to see him play 1 more year as a regular. if he got over 200 HR and 1000 RBI he would be a lock for the Hall of Fame.

                    Comment

                    • rsox
                      All Star
                      • Feb 2003
                      • 6309

                      #11
                      Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                      Barry Larkin is a career .295 hitter, he has 198 HR's and 960 RBI's, plus he stole 379 bases. Those are pretty good career numbers for a SS, if he played anyother position (other than maybe 2B) he probably would not get in, but i think he will. He may not be a first ballott (then again...), but i think he'll get in.

                      Looking at his numbers i think it would have been good to see him play 1 more year as a regular. if he got over 200 HR and 1000 RBI he would be a lock for the Hall of Fame.

                      Comment

                      • VanCitySportsGuy
                        NYG_Meth
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 9351

                        #12
                        Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                        Originally posted by SportsmanTO
                        I think he's a HOF'er. Shortstops for a long time weren't offensive juggernauts like A-Rod, Jeter and Miggy. Larkin put up some great numbers offensively and as you've so eloquently showed he was a fine defensive SS.

                        BTW where does Tony Fernandez fit in as far as defensive SS' because IIRC he was the best defensive SS of the 80s according to some stats.
                        I don't have the data in front of me, but there's no way I would classify Fernandez as the best defensive SS in the 80's. That title belongs to Ozzie Smith.

                        I do believe you could argue Fernandez belongs in the top 3 with Smith and Alan Trammell.

                        I'll always have a soft spot for Fernandez because outside of many memorable years with the Jays he was part of the package that landed Alomar and Carter, and you know what happened after that.

                        Comment

                        • VanCitySportsGuy
                          NYG_Meth
                          • Feb 2003
                          • 9351

                          #13
                          Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                          Originally posted by SportsmanTO
                          I think he's a HOF'er. Shortstops for a long time weren't offensive juggernauts like A-Rod, Jeter and Miggy. Larkin put up some great numbers offensively and as you've so eloquently showed he was a fine defensive SS.

                          BTW where does Tony Fernandez fit in as far as defensive SS' because IIRC he was the best defensive SS of the 80s according to some stats.
                          I don't have the data in front of me, but there's no way I would classify Fernandez as the best defensive SS in the 80's. That title belongs to Ozzie Smith.

                          I do believe you could argue Fernandez belongs in the top 3 with Smith and Alan Trammell.

                          I'll always have a soft spot for Fernandez because outside of many memorable years with the Jays he was part of the package that landed Alomar and Carter, and you know what happened after that.

                          Comment

                          • glucklich
                            Banned
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 4272

                            #14
                            Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                            Originally posted by asianflow
                            I don't have the data in front of me, but there's no way I would classify Fernandez as the best defensive SS in the 80's. That title belongs to Ozzie Smith.

                            I do believe you could argue Fernandez belongs in the top 3 with Smith and Alan Trammell.

                            I'll always have a soft spot for Fernandez because outside of many memorable years with the Jays he was part of the package that landed Alomar and Carter, and you know what happened after that.
                            You dont need data to know Ozzie was better in the 80s BUT Fernandez was so silky smooth in how he played SS. He was a real joy to watch. He and Frank White are two of the most underrated players of their generation.

                            Comment

                            • glucklich
                              Banned
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 4272

                              #15
                              Re: Is Barry Larkin a HoFer?

                              Originally posted by asianflow
                              I don't have the data in front of me, but there's no way I would classify Fernandez as the best defensive SS in the 80's. That title belongs to Ozzie Smith.

                              I do believe you could argue Fernandez belongs in the top 3 with Smith and Alan Trammell.

                              I'll always have a soft spot for Fernandez because outside of many memorable years with the Jays he was part of the package that landed Alomar and Carter, and you know what happened after that.
                              You dont need data to know Ozzie was better in the 80s BUT Fernandez was so silky smooth in how he played SS. He was a real joy to watch. He and Frank White are two of the most underrated players of their generation.

                              Comment

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