Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

[caseyd]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

Amen brother. Like with anything else, people will react differently depending on what environment they are in. Psych 101 at its finest.

I think we'd all pay a lot of money to see Bonds, Ruth, Williams, Aaron, and Mays all playing on the same field.

[Heelfan71]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

I would pay to see Babe Ruth facing Randy Johnson for sure !

[dooch]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

To say competition now is tougher than in Ruth's era is subject to argument (IMO), based on a number of factors. First off, there are 30 teams now, based on what, 10-15 back in Ruth's era? So obviously, pitching would be tougher then, whereas now you can probably find about 50 pitchers who have no business being in the big leagues. Now, with the fitness craze, there is the added benefit of players being bigger, stronger, healthier, etc...so today's numbers are going to be a bit inflated.

The only thing that is tougher now would be the specialists and closers. There were no such things back in Ruth's era. So most pitchers went 9 innings. But all in all, I think the numbers put up back then are more impressive than the numbers being put up today. Again, it's tough to compare eras, but it's fun to try.

[Liquidrage]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

That is misleading as well.

The population of potential ballplayers has grown so much since the days of Ruth that we'd probably need about 200 teams to get a league as watered down as what Ruth played in. Not just have minorities have forgieners started playing since Ruth, but overall populations have grown.

[Will]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

Exactly. Give me those 50 pitchers that don't deserve to be in the big leagues today, and I'll give you the number 1, 2, and 3 starters in each of the 15 teams' rotations in the 1920's.

And to say Ruth might have trained differently, that brings in a whole new list of, in my opinion, unnecessary what if's. I'm talking about the Ruth that played in the 20's, not the Ruth that might have been if he would have grown up in today's era. The Ruth that played in the 20's, along with the Chamberlain that played some hoops in the 50's/60's would not be nearly as great as their legacy is if they played today.

With so many more people playing the game, and every one of them spending vasts amounts of more time training to play the game well, the talent level rises dramatically, even among those that are made look foolish each night by guys like Bonds and Glaus. The pitchers that serve up taters in the pros nowadays are still better than tens and hundreds of thousands that have dedicated their lives, not just their free time, to playing ball in the pros.

[dooch]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

Will-
I agree with most of what you said- except for the '50 pitchers would be number 1, 2, and 3 back then'. I just don't see it. I'll take guys like Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, etc over the 10th pitcher on the D Rays (actually, all 10 pitchers on the D Rays), Padres, Rockies, (I think you get the picture) any day of the week.

[Heelfan71]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

I could be a pro in the 20's !

[cookusu]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

Will,

I totally agree that athletes just keep getting better and better, but I don't think it is fair to compare todays athletes to those of the 20's either. And if you compare Ruth only to players in his Era it's misleading as well. Makes for good debate, but we will never really know what Ruth would be like today because there are too many if's.

[Heelfan71]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

I'm sure the players from the 20's would be even better if they had the technology of today. The training, nutrition, bats, balls and gloves too. Those gloves they used where horrible.

[Liquidrage]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

There no way to tell...

If you took 1000 people and never let them work out and use today's technology the fastest runner would most likely be a different person then if you let them work out and use that technology.

Not everyone's body reacts the same way to working out.
Some people get hurt more. Some people never gain the speed or strenght. Some people just wont work out. Other loose flexability.

Todays athletes are definitely better.
When did they start awarding the MVP award?
Bonds is about to win his 5th (should be 6, Pendleton's was a joke). That's a pretty could measure.
I know the record pre-Bonds was 3.

[cookusu]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

I don't think the MVP was a big deal until the 50's they had other awards similar though.

If you really want some stat analysis on this there are two books by Bill James where he tries to come up with a stat that will help compare players from each era. One book is called "Win Shares" and is very dry statistical stuff and the other is the Baseball Historical Abstract" much more interesting.

[LHayes37]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

How does one define a power hitter? Ted Williams has the second highest slugging % of all time, topped only by Ruth, so I think Williams could be put in that catagory. Now Bonds only ranks 9th all-time and Aaron is 26th, both very good in my opinion. But the one problem I have with Bonds and many of the other sluggers today, is that 16 of the top 30 in slugging % have played in the last 15 years. That to me says a lot about the lack of quality pitching they are facing. If many of these pitchers are such great athletes why don't we see many of them able to throw as many as 250 innings. We hear about a guy that goes 200 and it seems like a big deal. Let's face it, the pitching today is a joke. While the likes of Bonds, Sosa and A Rod would be puting up good numbers, they would be nothing like we are seeing if it weren't for the watered down pitching.

[cookusu]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

part of the pitching things is specialization in pitching, I am sure there are guys capabale of pitching 250 innings or more, but the managers are so used to going to the bullpen in the 7th that you just don't see it happen. I also think that pitchers have to work harder to get people out now, which is going to effect your endurance

I think pitchers are better now, back in Ruth's day a lot of pitchers only had 2 pitches and I have read stories of Walter Johnson just throwing his fastball the whole game. Now, I don't care how hard you throw now but the hitters will hit you if all you throw is one pitch.

The guys in the past also had the advantage of seeing the pitcher 3 and 4 times in a game and because there were less teams they saw the pitcher more often which should have helped them be able to hit.

[Rocky]

Re: Something NEEDS to be cleared up about Bonds

I think Mays deserves some mention as the greatest power hitter ever. He played in the ultimate pitchers era in the hardest park to hit homeruns ever, yet he still managed to get to 660 while injured most of the time. I also think he is the best overall player in baseball history. Bonds, Aaron, Williams, nor Ruth could field or steal a base like Willie Mays.