2009 Atlanta Braves

[jt45]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

The more I read the more I think Wren will still sign another outfielder or an infielder. I will be upset if we signed a second baseman. Prado was our most consistent offensive player last season. He deserves to start.

Anyone thought about a lineup after the Glaus signing? Here's what I'm thinking.

1. Diaz, RF (.390 OBP in 09)
2. Prado, 2B
3. Chipper, 3B
4. Glaus, 1B
5. McCann, C
6. Escobar, SS
7. McLouth, CF
8. Melky, LF
9. Pitcher

[Tomahawk]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

The more I read the more I think Wren will still sign another outfielder or an infielder. I will be upset if we signed a second baseman. Prado was our most consistent offensive player last season. He deserves to start.

Anyone thought about a lineup after the Glaus signing? Here's what I'm thinking.

1. Diaz, RF (.390 OBP in 09)
2. Prado, 2B
3. Chipper, 3B
4. Glaus, 1B
5. McCann, C
6. Escobar, SS
7. McLouth, CF
8. Melky, LF
9. Pitcher

Despite the nice OBP, I honestly see no chance of Diaz leading off.

Here's mine:
1. McLouth - L
2. Prado - R
3. Chipper - S
4. Glaus - R
5. McCann - L
6. Escobar - R
7. Diaz/Melky - R/L
8. Heyward - L

If Heyward hits well early on then I think he moves in to the 6 slot.

[tonybologna]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

I think this article is excellent and it sums up my feelings very well:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...articleid=9874

So true of this blog & very well put. Taking a "DUMP" in Braves terms means the front office gets rid of good/great players due to the $. It's all written in stone. :o

Here's the lineup I'd like to see with what we currently have:

1. McClouth
2. Prado
3, Chipper
4. McCann
5. Glaus
6. Escobar
7. Diaz
8. Cabrera/Heyward

I feel Heyward is a stretch to be in RF on a regular basis at least early during the upcoming season. However, I don't think Melky can be a consistent regular in the OF either. Maybe as a defensive player but enough for batting.

I feel both Heyward & Melky will split time in RF with Diaz seeing more time from both LF & some from RF. Diaz is too good of a hitter to not be in the lineup more this coming season. He has improved on defense but still somewhat of a liability out there at times. Heyward has all the tools so if he can show up early on then we may see Melky riding the bench quite often.

Melky could still fill in for Diaz in LF but I just don't see that too often because of Diaz & his hitting skills. If McClouth was to have an off start then Melky could take over in CF though. However, I beleive McClouth makes quite a bit more in $ so that may not be likely unless we were to make another trade. I base this if McClouth was to have a bad year though.

[Kohlstar20]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

After trading away Vazquez it's become apparent to me that Frank Wren has no intention of winning now which is a real shame considering this will be bobby's final season and Chipper isn't too far away from retirement either. This organization is building towards the future and that's the bottom line. I don't like it but it is what it is.

[Tomahawk]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

After trading away Vazquez it's become apparent to me that Frank Wren has no intention of winning now which is a real shame considering this will be bobby's final season and Chipper isn't too far away from retirement either. This organization is building towards the future and that's the bottom line. I don't like it but it is what it is.

You almost had it right.

This organization is building towards the bottom line in the future.

[Heisman316]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

WE need to sign a quality power threat for the bench, and to back up Glaus.

If Glaus goes down, we're screwed so that is the only thing left to acquire.

McCann
Ross
Glaus
Infante
Prado
Chipper
Escobar
Diaz
Melky
McClouth
Schafer
Heyward

Lowe
Jurrjens
Hanson
Hudson
Kawakami

Wagner
Saito
Moylan
O' Flaherty
Dunn
Proctor

[Speedy]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

1. McClouth
2. Prado
3, Chipper
4. McCann
5. Escobar
6. Glaus
7. Diaz
8. Cabrera/Heyward

With Esky's potential and performance in clutch situations I'd have him in the 5th hole. Prado was amazing last year so I pray that it wasn't a fluke but a start of the norm. If Chipper was even half of what he was in '08 we would've gotten the WC last year - he has to be healthy (not play but be healthy) in at least 110 games for us to have a chance.

I like the Glaus signing in his power potential and the low risk 1-yr/$2M but the old vet/injury status still scares me, plus this about annihilates any chances LaRoche was coming back.

More signings I think can be a good fit:

Rick Ankiel - OF versatility, good defense...I've just always been a fan of him plus is a good LH bat off the bench

Felipe Lopez - good bat & speed so can be @ the top of the order, can play at all infield positions...may be an issue w/PT but with injury concerns across the IF shouldn't have a problem w/that

Kiko Calero - outstanding RP for the Marlins, would be great depth given Moylan's overuse last year and the oldies at the backend of the bullpen...maybe 1-yr/$1-2M

Jim Thome - can play 1B, great power threat off the bench, proved last year he wants to win by agreeing to trade to the LA and I think he & Bobby would get along great...if Freeman is called up this year he'd be a good mentor

[mattlanta]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

Wren is tanking this offseason.

First, he signs two (old) end of game relievers expecting Soriano to decline arbitration, panics when he accepts, and gives him away for nothing (see Jesse Chavez, who I was forced to google as a means of introduction).

Next, he moves a horse after giving up early on moving DLowe and gets ... ANOTHER left handed hitter with limited pop when you need a big right handed power hitter. This when you've got Nate McClouth in CF and Jordan Schafer still waiting in the wings ... and your all world prospect is ... you guessed it, LEFT handed!!

At absolute best case, you can define Wren's moves as reactionary. In my case, you can say these trades are terrible, and have done nothing to fill the holes in the lineup. Hopefully more coming in the form of an Uggla trade, or maybe a bid on Bay. But with payroll constraints, I'm not sure either of those are legit pursuits. And to Tony's point 2 posts earlier, even if you freed up cash to go after a high prized free agent, you got NOTHING for 2 all stars. Judging both trades on their own merit, the Braves got completely outclassed to the Rays and Yankees and what they got.

Damnit I miss John Shuerholtz ...

Wow... so many things wrong with this post. First of all, Frank Wren probably shouldn't have offered Soriano arbitration, but pretty much every one thought it was a good idea when he did it so it'sn ot like it was a stupid idea. It was a high risk/high reward move, and he just didn't seem to have luck turn his way. And when he traded Soriano away for Jesse Chavez... that was pretty much all we could do. We had to dump his salary, and teams knew that so we had absolutely no leverage at all.

Melky Cabrera is a switch-hitting batter who will get you 15 HR's, 70 RBI's, and will hit .275/.330/.415 a year. He's not as bad as people think but they are mislead when a lot of people think that he was the centerpiece of the trade. He wasn't. Arodys Vizcaino was, and Melky was just thrown in to balance the salaries out between the two teams.

And if we couldn't trade Derek Lowe by now, I'm sure we couldn't trade him at all. I'm positive that all the other teams were making us eat more salary than we would have wanted and/or they wanted us to take on a bad contract as well. You tell me a major league team that would be in love with Derek Lowe and his contract... can't find one?

And Schuerholz was a terrible GM. He tried every thing he could to deny this team from going down the road of destiny. That destiny would be us being a true mid-market team. People think the Braves can be like the Yankees and compete with the big names... we can't. We have evolved into a mid-market team, and Schuerholz basically said **** the future and **** this organization... I want to win another ring for myself, and traded away our top prospects in C Jarrod Saltalamacchia, SP Neftali Feliz, and SS Elvis Andrus (two of them were considered two of the best prospects in the majors last year and the other we could have really used last season) and traded for a one and a half year rental in Mark Teixeira...I'm not saying Frank Wren is a perfect GM, but I'd rather have Wren than Schuerholz. People forget how many ****ty moves Schurholz made in Atlanta. They also forget how a lot of his moves were scrutinized by a lot of fans... only for it to turn around and make the Braves even better... but again, I'd rather have realistic Wren over unrealistic Schuerholz.

I would say decent off-season as some of those moves have crippled us this year. Let's review some of those transactions though, SF.

Derek Lowe: I always thought he'd be a good fit but disappointing season especially given the monster contract

Schafer: GM Wren tried to have him win the CF job w/only 50 ABs (I'm not sure of the exact number but it was very low) above A-ball...the wrist injury did hamper him but nonetheless still needs a lot of seasoning

Norton: was re-signed and for some reason never got released at any point during the season, pretty much wasting a spot on the 25-man...why?!?

Garret Anderson: simply a stopgap, took a while to get acclimated to the NL along with his quad injury...not necessarily a disappointment as most know his career was on a downswing but only helped the offense for about a month [that .303 OBP being behind McCann was horrible while LaRoche was continually being placed in the 7th hole]

Javy Vazquez: traded by the White Sox for 4 prospects who didn't really fit in our system (the biggest being catcher Flowers would be hindered by McCann)...obvious success

Glavine/Smoltz: albeit both are in the far twighlight of their careers, the PR and front office handling of their situations was horrible, especially how Tommy was treated.

O'Flaherty: good waiver-wire pickup, very solid reliever

Kawakami: bust...nothing else to really say; too much money given for too old of an MLB unproved player. 3-yr/$23M for a 5th SP

Ross: 2-year deal, very solid player with some pop

Kawakami is a bust? He was a solid pitcher compared to many of the other pitchers in our division. If he was on another team, he would probably be a #3. Not to mention, Kawakami has opened the 'bridge to Japan' and is no undoubtedly helping us with the revenue.

Yeah, that's right but you have to agree these recent moves are really questionable at least but down right stupid it appears. We have done this to shy away from the money. That's the only real obvious sign for what's going on.

I know Vazquez has been traded/swapped teams quite a few times but we had one of the best pitchers in the game with him. We had $11.5 to pay him this coming season & we wanted to give that responsibility to some other team. That's how we work far too many times.

We could have used him at least until the All-Star break & then if we really wanted to trade him then get more in return than we did. Heck, I wouldn't trade Vazquez no matter what. I mean he's one of the best like I said. How could we not use him as the anchor of our rotation?

Yeah, we have Jurrjens & Hanson as two solid young guys that should be in the rotation for quite some time but knowing how we work then that's not even a given. Vazquez is the guy we needed as our anchor but we as always think otherwise. Could we not afford to pay him the money at least through this coming season? If we didn't want to pay him then WHY MAKE THE MOVE TO GET HIM FROM THE WHITE SOX TO START WITH?

Why do we want to get rid of the money all the time? I mean it's crazy over the past few years. I'm surprised with the $ Chipper is owed we don't even consider getting rid of his contract to other teams. If Chipper is ever traded from the Braves I'm done with the people making these decisions.

I'll be a Braves fan til I die but we don't have to stand for all these stupid & crazy moves they continue to make.

I can't believe the **** I'm reading...

Think about what you're saying here... Vazquez would have more value at the all-star break? Uhh... why? If you were a GM and you wanted to trade for an ace who would make big bucks in the offseason, what would you rather have him for... half a year or a full year? Vazquez's value is lower now than it was in the all-star break last season because he only had one year left. Vazquez with one and a half years left in his contract is way more valuable than a Vazquez with just one / half a year left on his contract.

And again... we obviously had to trade Vazquez or Lowe. Refer to the part above regarding Lowe's un-tradable value.

I didn't call DeRosa an "Atlanta guy". I was just saying this is where he got his career started. This is all opinions & we all have one but I don't like the Glaus signing either. I think DeRosa being a utility player is a much better choice than Glaus as our 1B.

If Glaus comes in & has a solid season then so be it but personally I don't care for it just like a lot of other moves we make. What happened in the past couple years makes you think Glaus will come in & perform? I just don't see it nor as for him being the fit for Atlanta at 1B.

Glaus is 33 & not exactly a spring chicken with injury problems. You wanna compare ages here to DeRosa with the signing of Glaus? Glaus can be considered washed up while DeRosa isn't in that category just yet. DeRosa has very little injury problems while Glaus is coming off shoulder surgery.

How can Glaus be considered a better signing than a DeRosa at this point in their careers? Neither one is gonna be a "saviour" but I'd prefer a utility player with some pop than an injury plagued washed up has been. Again, this is just my honest opinion so don't think I'm trying to be difficult. Thanks!

Glaus is a smart sign because when he's healthy he has proven that he is a 30 HR, 100 RBI type of guy who hits .850 OPS.

It's a smart decision to sign DeRosa now as we have two injury prone players / health risks at 1B and 3B... For the right price, Derosa would be an excellent signing for this team.

You're right there. Logan was born in August of 1984 while Dunn was born in May of 1985. For all intents and purposes they will both be 25 years old for most of the 2010 season with Logan has vastly more experience.

I also track the Yankees, and what I can say about Dunn is that he is nothing like Logan. His stuff is electric, and while Logan was given a shot in the majors, Dunn has not. Dunn was recently converted into a reliever from a starter so he was never given the opportunity to make it in the majors. Dunn's upside is much, much higher than Logan's.

[Speedy]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

And Schuerholz was a terrible GM. He tried every thing he could to deny this team from going down the road of destiny. That destiny would be us being a true mid-market team. People think the Braves can be like the Yankees and compete with the big names... we can't. We have evolved into a mid-market team, and Schuerholz basically said **** the future and **** this organization... I want to win another ring for myself, and traded away our top prospects in C Jarrod Saltalamacchia, SP Neftali Feliz, and SS Elvis Andrus (two of them were considered two of the best prospects in the majors last year and the other we could have really used last season) and traded for a one and a half year rental in Mark Teixeira...I'm not saying Frank Wren is a perfect GM, but I'd rather have Wren than Schuerholz. People forget how many ****ty moves Schurholz made in Atlanta.

Holy cow...

[mattlanta]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

Braves sign OF/1B Xavier Nady to $2MM - Braves have the leverage to ask for a cheaper price from this Boras client now that we don't have a true need for a 'power' bat anymore.

Braves sign (S)UTIL Mark DeRosa to $7MM - DeRosa is looking to make around $8-10MM next season... that won't happen. DeRosa is easily a smart signing at this point seeing that Chipper is not exactly the most durable player in the league and Troy Glaus missed the season last year due to shoulder injuries.

25-man roster (Rotation in order of salary)

SP Derek Lowe
SP Tim Hudson
SP Kenshin Kawakami
SP Jair Jurrjens
SP Tommy Hanson

LR Kris Medlen
MR Eric O'Flaherty
MR Jesse Chavez
MR Michael Dunn
SU Takashi Saito
SU Peter Moylan
CL Billy Wagner

CA Brian McCann
1B Troy Glaus
2B Martin Prado
3B Chipper Jones
SS Yunel Escobar

LF Xavier Nady
CF Nate McLouth
RF Matt Diaz

CA David Ross
OF Melky Cabrera
PH Mitch Jones
UT Mark DeRosa
UT Omar Infante

---------

When Heyward is ready, he replaces either Matt Diaz or Xavier Nady depending on which one is having the better year. Diaz/Nady goes down and replaces Mitch Jones as the PH/OF of the bench.

[tonybologna]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

Mattlanta:

I appreciate your loyalty to the Braves organization. I'm a die hard Braves fan as well. However, why are you continuing to not see the writing on the wall here? Me along with a many others see what's happening right before our eyes. It's like a broken record Matt! You are one of the very few that seems to be sticking up for the moves the front office are making.

You have several fans here now(some Braves & some not) seeing how stupid things are being handled this off-season. Heck, I agree it dates back to Schuerholz days too but these recent transactions are off the wall. About Vazquez: I said wait til the All-Star break to see if we look like a contending team first before thinking about trading him.

Maybe if he's still the same ol Vazquez then if we needed to trade him we could get more in return but I wasn't for trading him at all in the first place. He's too good. Also, you are arguing against ever body else's posts. This is OK because it's our opinions but you have to question these recent moves in comparison to what we could be doing.

You don't even the slightest think these moves are in the wrong direction? I hope things turn out for the best but I don't see it happening. Just like a previous poster stated that you disputed. That is Bobby Cox is in his last year plus Chipper is getting old. Now is the time for success & not say well maybe the future we'll look to contend.

It's the same old bull year in & year out. That blog posted my someone is very accurate in its description of the Braves. Looking to sell contracts to save money. Liberty Media wants the Braves to get rid of money. It's a fact & not a theory.

Why would we sell the contract of one of the best starting pitchers in baseball in what could be our last legitimate chance for Bobby & Chipper to make a championship run? Are you serious?

[mattlanta]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

Mattlanta:

I appreciate your loyalty to the Braves organization. I'm a die hard Braves fan as well. However, why are you continuing to not see the writing on the wall here? Me along with a many others see what's happening right before our eyes. It's like a broken record Matt! You are one of the very few that seems to be sticking up for the moves the front office are making.

You have several fans here now(some Braves & some not) seeing how stupid things are being handled this off-season. Heck, I agree it dates back to Schuerholz days too but these recent transactions are off the wall. About Vazquez: I said wait til the All-Star break to see if we look like a contending team first before thinking about trading him.

Maybe if he's still the same ol Vazquez then if we needed to trade him we could get more in return but I wasn't for trading him at all in the first place. He's too good. Also, you are arguing against ever body else's posts. This is OK because it's our opinions but you have to question these recent moves in comparison to what we could be doing.

You don't even the slightest think these moves are in the wrong direction? I hope things turn out for the best but I don't see it happening. Just like a previous poster stated that you disputed. That is Bobby Cox is in his last year plus Chipper is getting old. Now is the time for success & not say well maybe the future we'll look to contend.

It's the same old bull year in & year out. That blog posted my someone is very accurate in its description of the Braves. Looking to sell contracts to save money. Liberty Media wants the Braves to get rid of money. It's a fact & not a theory.

Why would we sell the contract of one of the best starting pitchers in baseball in what could be our last legitimate chance for Bobby & Chipper to make a championship run? Are you serious?

You're repeating your question again, so maybe you didn't get my point. I'll repeat it one more time and try to make it more accurate...

We had two pitchers needed to be traded this year. Lowe and Vazquez... No one wants Lowe. Vazquez is the only pitcher we could have traded, and we got one spectacular, stud prospect out of the trade, an OK 25-year old OF, and an electrifying left-handed reliever. That's not exactly "nothing". That was every thing but a salary dump.

Arodys Vizcaino is automatically a top 5 prospect in our farm system. Michael Dunn has an electrifying arm and if he can put it all together can team up with Craig Kimbrel to make up the back end of our rotation for many years to come. Melky Cabrera is still young and can still develop power, but is still a solid OF who is being paid less than he really should.

I knew it all along that Wren would move Vazquez in a trade that would piss every one off. I told my brother in November. I also said Lowe would be too difficult to be moved so we would have to go with Vazquez. I was right on all accounts.

TonyB, if you don't understand this "trade a stud player that we won't be able to retain after the season for a stud prospect" idea, then I don't know what to tell ya.

All of you guys are entitled to your own opinion... but just keep in mind that we are not a big market team anymore, and it is very much likely that Liberty Mutual has cut the payroll again.

[Tomahawk]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

I also track the Yankees, and what I can say about Dunn is that he is nothing like Logan. His stuff is electric, and while Logan was given a shot in the majors, Dunn has not. Dunn was recently converted into a reliever from a starter so he was never given the opportunity to make it in the majors. Dunn's upside is much, much higher than Logan's.

Everything I've read on Dunn says he has good stuff, but lacks control. He had plenty of time to iron out those control issues as a starter which is probably why he hasn't pitch very much in the majors so far. I'm not a big fan of relievers who lack control, but who knows he might turn into the next Mike Gonzalez. I'm not exactly counting on it though and it is not like Boone Logan is a major loss.

Basically we traded Vazquez for Cabrera and Viscaino then swapped underachieving lefty relievers.

[mattlanta]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

I wanted us to sign Holliday or Bay, but it's a harsh reality to have to see... that we are not anywhere near the market that we used to be in after all those playoff runs. Schuerholz may have tried to boost the revenue in his attempt to win it all by trading the farm system for Mark Teixeira, but that obviously failed. And mid-market teams should never make those risks (refer to that scenario for a reason why).

I also question this trade because what I thought at first was... wow, that's all we could get from Cabrera? But then you have to keep in mind that we did not have the leverage when trading with teams because they knew we'd have to deal Vazquez eventually. I knew all along that we would not be able to trade Lowe unless we ate more money than we would have preferred or took on a similar bad contract.

[tonybologna]

Re: 2009 Atlanta Braves

You're repeating your question again, so maybe you didn't get my point. I'll repeat it one more time and try to make it more accurate...

We had two pitchers needed to be traded this year. Lowe and Vazquez... No one wants Lowe. Vazquez is the only pitcher we could have traded, and we got one spectacular, stud prospect out of the trade, an OK 25-year old OF, and an electrifying left-handed reliever. That's not exactly "nothing". That was every thing but a salary dump.

Arodys Vizcaino is automatically a top 5 prospect in our farm system. Michael Dunn has an electrifying arm and if he can put it all together can team up with Craig Kimbrel to make up the back end of our rotation for many years to come. Melky Cabrera is still young and can still develop power, but is still a solid OF who is being paid less than he really should.

I knew it all along that Wren would move Vazquez in a trade that would piss every one off. I told my brother in November. I also said Lowe would be too difficult to be moved so we would have to go with Vazquez. I was right on all accounts.

TonyB, if you don't understand this "trade a stud player that we won't be able to retain after the season for a stud prospect" idea, then I don't know what to tell ya.

All of you guys are entitled to your own opinion... but just keep in mind that we are not a big market team anymore, and it is very much likely that Liberty Mutual has cut the payroll again.

Your points are well noted too Matt! It's all good because we are just throwing our opinions out there. I'm sure all us Brave fans just hope things turn out for the best. I'd lie to see a run at a title for Bobby & Chipper.