2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

A couple anomalies make this hard to believe it will continue, but PECOTA did now say that the hot start should make it so the Pirates are not cellar dwellers in the Central -- that role now belongs to the Astros since the Pirates are ticketed for 69.5 wins.

Enjoy it while it lasts I guess, and use Adam's hot start (he's something like a .170 AVG in April over his career) as a way to get good value for him as the deadline nears.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Oh I think the Pirates are all around better than both Houston and Cincinnati. They should finish above both teams. They're battling injuries as we speak and still putting out a competitive team through pitching. It's just kind of scary that if Adam LaRoche doesn't provide power, who is going to? Brandon Moss has been terribly disappointing in that regard. Hinske hasn't seen much playing time. Andy LaRoche is hitting well, but hasn't shown any signs of power. They need another big bat in that lineup in the worst way.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

As I said, it's becoming evident they need another power bat. They've lost 5 of 6, all due to their offense. Their pitching is still there, even when they pitch bad they still keep them in games well enough. But Adam LaRoche is the only guy in the lineup who has shown any signs of power at all.

They have guys who are getting on base well enough, they just aren't getting the HR's/Extra Base hits to get those guys in. The problem is, you have 1st base with Adam LaRoche, who has been solid in the power department. Then Andy LaRoche is at third base, the other power position, and he's got good opposite field approach, seems to be able get gappers and doubles and so forth, but he's been more of a contact guy than power. Then in RF, the other power position, we have Brandon Moss, who's done nothing.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

The wheels have really come off this bus. I had a feeling this was going to happen and the Pirates were playing well over their head before, but I didn't think this would happen so quickly.

Every year it's the same thing. A handful of players talk in spring training about how it feels different this year, how they're turning the corner etc... I've heard this the past 4-5 years and it's the same crap every year. This team doesn't have enough offense and the pitching is mediocre at best - outside of Maholm.

It gets more and more frustrating every year, but it's what's expected until ownership decides to get behind this team and infuse some money and talent into it. It also helps that they appear to be drafting the best players available now and not the one's they can sign. However, it's going to take another year or 2 for some of that talent to prosper at the MLB level. Let's hope for now more Chad Hermansen's!

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Eh. Their main problem is offense. Their offense is so terrible right now. If Adam LaRoche doesn't hit a HR, they don't score more than 1-3 runs a game. Why? Because nobody else can do it. Brandon Moss has been incredibly disappointing. He's shown no power at all, when that's why he's supposed to be there. They actually hit the ball well, they don't seem to have too much trouble getting guys on base, they just can't bring in runners worth a crap, since they have absolutely no power.

The only nearest hope on that front is Pedro Alvarez, and he's not likely to come up until the end of the season, at earliest. McCutchen will probably be up by the All-Star break, but he's not going to hit 30 HR's or anything. I'd still rather have him in RF than Brandon Moss though.

As a fix solution for the time being, why not just put Eric Hinske in right and then bench Moss? Hinske hit 20 HR's for Tampa last season and really had a great "utility player" season.

I figured the Pirates pitching would hit the wall at some point, but good lord not this badly. Their entire rotation has been ROCKED for the past two weeks. Their bullpen has been terrible too, that's a main reason why they're getting blown out. Tyler Yates is awful. Grabow has been really bad too. Capps is blowing saves and just all around not looking like himself.

They're a better team than this. Not a great team or anything, but better than how they're playing. My big problem is that they're yet to have a manager who really pushes them. When they hit these stretches where they're losing and losing and losing, the manager is supposed to step in and do something, say something, I don't know. But it's just the same old song from Pittsburgh managers "We need to play better. We're really excited about this club."

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

The starting pitching still hasn't really been the issue.

Maholm wasn't really getting rocked yesterday, the Mets just kept hitting dinkers through the IF.

-Ohlendorf looked good recently he just had one bad inning.

-Duke did struggle in his St. Louis start, but that was bound to happen at some point (every pitcher going to get hit from time to time).

-Karstens looked really good for once the other day, and even located his curveball.

-Snell was simply gassed because he threw 130+ pitches in the outing before his most recent one.

Of course, I agree that power is a problem, but I think the bullpen might be the even more serious issue. For whatever reason, Russell keeps running Yates out there in important situations, but the problem is Yates is terrible. Capps getting hurt didn't help, and really the only guy I trust in that bullpen outside of Capps is Grabow. The Pirates do have some decent relievers in the minors so I'm not sure why they don't try someone else out -- but I think they will have to soon enough. I suppose the bright side is Meek and Chavez have at least looked decent, and before he got hurt, Hansen didn't look nearly as lost as last year.

Back to the offense. When you lose Doumit that is going to sting the Pirates lineup. Brandon Moss is also certainly struggling, but you have to keep running him out there and see what you have. It's like with Andy LaRoche last year. He played quite poorly, but now he's turning it around because he has gotten a chance to play. Now, BMoss doesn't have the prospect status or pedigree of an Andy LaRoche (no one would argue that Moss would just be a solid 4th OFer on a good team) but you still need to give the young guy a chance.

Plus, it's not like Hinske has looked good in his ABs this year, and the same goes for Monroe. Either way, you don't give the ABs to rent-a-players -- that is just so Littlefield -- and it's the same short-sighted approach that got the Pirates into the mess in the first place.

Cutch went through a little bit of a bump at Triple-A after surging out to a hot start, but I would chalk that up to the ups and downs of a season since he still looks good and the peripherals still look fine -- I would like to see a few more walks but I already know he's going to be a good on-base percentage guy so it's not too much of a concern. I just wonder what they will do with Cutch when he gets here. I hope they just stick him right in CF and move Nate to LF or RF -- who knows who goes to the bench between Nyjer and BMoss, especially because I wonder if Cutch will go right in the leadoff spot or not. Either way, that's the thing that interests me most for this season (outside of the June draft of course).

As for Pedro. He won't be up this year. His glove at 3B looks soft at best so far. Errors aren't always the greatest indicator of whether or not someone is a good fielder, but it still isn't a good thing that Alvarez already has 10 errors at 3B this season. His bat also has been sub-par to this point. His power is there but the K/BB ratio isn't where it should be, and his average is hovering in the .220 region. It's not uncommon for a highly touted guy to struggle in his pro debut and I'm not worried yet, but it is at least a little disconcerting that he made his pro debut at a level lower than most thought he should be and is still struggling. It also doesn't make me feel good when I see Justin Smoak tearing the cover off the ball at Double-A in the Rangers system, when I know the Pirates could have picked him over Alvarez.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Back to the offense. When you lose Doumit that is going to sting the Pirates lineup. Brandon Moss is also certainly struggling, but you have to keep running him out there and see what you have. It's like with Andy LaRoche last year. He played quite poorly, but now he's turning it around because he has gotten a chance to play. Now, BMoss doesn't have the prospect status or pedigree of an Andy LaRoche (no one would argue that Moss would just be a solid 4th OFer on a good team) but you still need to give the young guy a chance.

Plus, it's not like Hinske has looked good in his ABs this year, and the same goes for Monroe. Either way, you don't give the ABs to rent-a-players -- that is just so Littlefield -- and it's the same short-sighted approach that got the Pirates into the mess in the first place.

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm simply saying something needs to be done about his poor production. He's done literally nothing, he's not helping the team at all by being in the lineup. If you bench him, like they did with Andy, it might light a fire, like it did with Andy. He's been pretty solid since he was benched in the first week, and seems to get better and better each week.

I agree in the long run though, it makes sense to give your younger guys fair opportunity, but Brandon Moss isn't exactly a highly touted guy or something. He did have a good year for the Sox as a utility guy, showed some promise and everything, but can he be an every day player? So far it doesn't look that way.

Cutch went through a little bit of a bump at Triple-A after surging out to a hot start, but I would chalk that up to the ups and downs of a season since he still looks good and the peripherals still look fine -- I would like to see a few more walks but I already know he's going to be a good on-base percentage guy so it's not too much of a concern. I just wonder what they will do with Cutch when he gets here. I hope they just stick him right in CF and move Nate to LF or RF -- who knows who goes to the bench between Nyjer and BMoss, especially because I wonder if Cutch will go right in the leadoff spot or not. Either way, that's the thing that interests me most for this season (outside of the June draft of course)

I think he would be more valuable in RF, since he has a better arm than McLouth. I can see him starting the year in RF, since they normally don't want to throw a rookie in CF. He's struggling right now, in a slump, his average dropped to .255, isn't showing much power. He'll be alright though, he's gonna be an awesome player. And yeah, I would bet he starts off as a leadoff hitter.

As for Pedro. He won't be up this year. His glove at 3B looks soft at best so far. Errors aren't always the greatest indicator of whether or not someone is a good fielder, but it still isn't a good thing that Alvarez already has 10 errors at 3B this season. His bat also has been sub-par to this point. His power is there but the K/BB ratio isn't where it should be, and his average is hovering in the .220 region. It's not uncommon for a highly touted guy to struggle in his pro debut and I'm not worried yet, but it is at least a little disconcerting that he made his pro debut at a level lower than most thought he should be and is still struggling. It also doesn't make me feel good when I see Justin Smoak tearing the cover off the ball at Double-A in the Rangers system, when I know the Pirates could have picked him over Alvarez.

He could very well be up this year. If he picks it up and tears it up, which he very well could because his bat is hugely talented, he could be up. He's underachieving right now, yet he's still put up above average power numbers while slumping. So just wait til he gets hot. Glove doesn't matter, it didn't factor in for Ryan Braun when he was the worst third baseman ever.

Pedro can still be moved to first base or LF or something too, by the way. With Andy looking more legit by the week, I doubt they're going to take him out of the spot any time soon. Besides, they didn't trade Jason Bay to have someone else playing third base. They said from the start that it was likely Pedro gets moved to 1st base before debuting at a pro level. That will give us the opportunity to trade Adam LaRoche, which is long overdue.

I don't care what Smoak is doing. You're jumping the gun a little bit here, Pedro is a GREAT prospect, he was their best draft pick since Barry Bonds. He'll pan out.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm simply saying something needs to be done about his poor production. He's done literally nothing, he's not helping the team at all by being in the lineup. If you bench him, like they did with Andy, it might light a fire, like it did with Andy. He's been pretty solid since he was benched in the first week, and seems to get better and better each week.

I agree in the long run though, it makes sense to give your younger guys fair opportunity, but Brandon Moss isn't exactly a highly touted guy or something. He did have a good year for the Sox as a utility guy, showed some promise and everything, but can he be an every day player? So far it doesn't look that way.

Well, he didn't play today, and Monroe and Hinske have both spot-started for him and been bad. I think Andy's multiple-game benching stemmed more from the defensive issues than the offense. He had to get a few extra days of practice because they were readjusting his throwing mechanics because he didn't realize he was dipping so low on his throws -- or some mechanic like that.

Last year, they ran Andy out there in a similar way to Moss and it's just a matter of getting one or two hits and turning it around from there. I wouldn't be opposed to dropping him down in the lineup though, which they haven't really done -- maybe because they still think if he strokes one it will go yard or something. Or maybe they think he gets more protection farther up in the lineup.

No disagreement about him not being an everyday player though. He's a utility guy, and his minors stats show that, but he is still the best option for now.

I think he would be more valuable in RF, since he has a better arm than McLouth. I can see him starting the year in RF, since they normally don't want to throw a rookie in CF. He's struggling right now, in a slump, his average dropped to .255, isn't showing much power. He'll be alright though, he's gonna be an awesome player. And yeah, I would bet he starts off as a leadoff hitter.

Yeah, I just know his range is also much better than Nate's so it's tricky. I wouldn't be opposed either way, but Cutch would probably have the most value in CF. And yeah, I'm not sweating Cutch. The strikeout rate is low, the walks are still solid, he has like 7 triples and at least 5 doubles so he's still getting extra-base hits. However, I don't think Cutch is ever going to hit more than 20 bombs, but he's still getting bigger and all that, so that power should conceivably develop later on.

He could very well be up this year. If he picks it up and tears it up, which he very well could because his bat is hugely talented, he could be up. He's underachieving right now, yet he's still put up above average power numbers while slumping. So just wait til he gets hot. Glove doesn't matter, it didn't factor in for Ryan Braun when he was the worst third baseman ever.

Pedro can still be moved to first base or LF or something too, by the way. With Andy looking more legit by the week, I doubt they're going to take him out of the spot any time soon. Besides, they didn't trade Jason Bay to have someone else playing third base. They said from the start that it was likely Pedro gets moved to 1st base before debuting at a pro level. That will give us the opportunity to trade Adam LaRoche, which is long overdue.

I don't care what Smoak is doing. You're jumping the gun a little bit here, Pedro is a GREAT prospect, he was their best draft pick since Barry Bonds. He'll pan out.

I just don't see them starting the clock on Pedro at this point. If their timetable to compete is around 2011 -- which it seems to be -- they need to maximize the early years on these prospects. It is at least partly the reason Cutch didn't break camp with the team, and it's the same reason I think they started Pedro low in the organization. They wanted him to build confidence, and just move through the organization at a solid pace. I realize he has a pro-level contract but I would think mid-season or later next year would be more logical/their planned timetable.

And you're right, the glove doesn't matter. I never thought he was going to stick at third -- he's just too damn big and still getting bigger -- so I always assumed he would move to 1B when he made it to the MLB. And I'm not doubting his bat, he is supremely talented and he will hit. I am simply a little worried about the K/BB ratio for now. I have no problem with Ks as long as the ratio is solid, and at High-A ball the ratio is not where it should be for a big-time slugger like him. But hey it's early, and guys like Beckham and Moustakas in their first 100 AB before turning it around (though those guys are both way younger so maybe not the best comparison).

And, yes, talent-wise he is their best pick since Bonds, which just shows how terrible management has been until recently haha. I only brought up Smoak because he was the other potential pick at that spot. As for Adam, I thought he should have been traded last year when he wasn't in a walk year so they could have gotten the most value for him. Now, with him struggling again, they have to wait until he picks it up -- as he always does -- and then deal him near the deadline. I wouldn't be surprised if they hold onto him and take the draft pick either though. Plus, the other reason why I don't think Pedro will be up comes down to Pearce. They have to want to give him a shot at 1B and see if maybe he can deliver some power at some point.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I'm in agreeance with ChaseB that Pedro won't be up this year. I also think it's best to wait until next year as not to start his arbitration clock.

Regarding the starting pitching... They rank slightly below the middle of the pack in the NL so I wouldn't say they've done well...average at best. Just my opinion, but I think they'll get even worse as the season progresses. Here's how I rank them now:

1. Maholm - He's been pretty consistent throughout this year. While he's had some troubles recently, I have no problems with him at all. Best pitcher on the Pirates IMO.
2. Duke - He's been surprisignly good this year and could overtake Maholm in the #1 spot. Considering how much he's struggled in years past, it's great to see him rebound this year.
3. Ohlendorf - I love his stuff. I don't think many expected a ton out of him this year so it's nice to see him pitch well.
4. Karstens - I've never been a fan. I don't like his stuff, but give him credit for his moxy. He understands he has to rely on his defense to win him games and he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of.
5. Snell - Love his stuff...incredibly disappointed in his performance. He's walking way too many hitters and has been incredibly inconsistent.

Just a quick overview. I'd get into more detailed analysis (I'm a stats geek and saber guy), but I'm at work and don't have the time.

I know I'm going to come across as overly negative, but I don't think this team is as close as some do. I still think they need to make some pretty big moves to get to where they want to be in 2011. They also have some big issues coming up... Resign Jack Wilson or trade him? Resign Adam LaRoche or trade him? I think JW's stock has risen recently after watching Bixler stink it up. I like Brian Friday, but I think he's still a year or 2 away (and had a little setback recently battling vertigo).

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

And, yes, talent-wise he is their best pick since Bonds, which just shows how terrible management has been until recently haha.

I mentioned him earlier, but anyone remember Chad Hermansen? He was EXTREMELY talented and tore through all levels of the minor leagues for the Pirates. He struggled defensively, but was very good offensively (although he did K a bit much). Hit the MLB level and stunk.

Nothing is for certain when dealing with draft picks. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Pedro will pan out and become a very good to great MLB player, but ya never know.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Well, he didn't play today, and Monroe and Hinske have both spot-started for him and been bad. I think Andy's multiple-game benching stemmed more from the defensive issues than the offense. He had to get a few extra days of practice because they were readjusting his throwing mechanics because he didn't realize he was dipping so low on his throws -- or some mechanic like that.

Last year, they ran Andy out there in a similar way to Moss and it's just a matter of getting one or two hits and turning it around from there. I wouldn't be opposed to dropping him down in the lineup though, which they haven't really done -- maybe because they still think if he strokes one it will go yard or something. Or maybe they think he gets more protection farther up in the lineup.

No disagreement about him not being an everyday player though. He's a utility guy, and his minors stats show that, but he is still the best option for now.

I know, neither Monroe or Hinske have looked great by any means, but both have at least shown that they can give some power. That's what the Pirates desperately need right now.

Andy was benched for various reasons. He was a mental mess when they started the season, you could tell just by watching him in his first two games. He looked like he was going to have a breakdown in his first couple of at bats, and then the horrible errors. Once he relaxed, he's been fine. I think the benching had a good deal to do with that.

Yeah, I just know his range is also much better than Nate's so it's tricky. I wouldn't be opposed either way, but Cutch would probably have the most value in CF. And yeah, I'm not sweating Cutch. The strikeout rate is low, the walks are still solid, he has like 7 triples and at least 5 doubles so he's still getting extra-base hits. However, I don't think Cutch is ever going to hit more than 20 bombs, but he's still getting bigger and all that, so that power should conceivably develop later on.

Oh yeah, when it's all said and done, Cutch is going to be our franchise CF, there's no question. I just meant right upon calling him up, he should be in RF. His range is too great to have him in RF forever, can't let that go to waste.

Yeah on the power scale, he's projected to be like a 15-25 HR guy, 25 probably being tops, but hey, there's nothing wrong with that at all. If he can put up a solid OBP, hit over .300, drive in runs, steal bases, be a run manufactorer like a Hanley Ramirez type, then his power is irrelevant. A lot of GREAT players only hit 15 or so HR's a year.

And you're right, the glove doesn't matter. I never thought he was going to stick at third -- he's just too damn big and still getting bigger -- so I always assumed he would move to 1B when he made it to the MLB. And I'm not doubting his bat, he is supremely talented and he will hit. I am simply a little worried about the K/BB ratio for now. I have no problem with Ks as long as the ratio is solid, and at High-A ball the ratio is not where it should be for a big-time slugger like him. But hey it's early, and guys like Beckham and Moustakas in their first 100 AB before turning it around (though those guys are both way younger so maybe not the best comparison).

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. Pedro is a pretty big dude, I really didn't like the idea of him playing 3rd base to begin with. I don't like the idea of him in the OF either. He seems like he'll be an ideal first baseman, and considering Adam has been nothing but a disappointment since we traded for him (although still a good trade, since Gonzo has been on the DL since Atlanta got him, pretty much), I would say the position is there for Pedro to take.

The K/BB isn't encouraging right now, but like you said, it's so early into his career/season. There's still plenty of time to improve on it as he gets the at bats. Hitting-wise, I think we'll have no problems from him. His bat is so highly touted, most scouts said he could play in the MLB by this season off of that alone, which is where I'm getting that from.

And, yes, talent-wise he is their best pick since Bonds, which just shows how terrible management has been until recently haha. I only brought up Smoak because he was the other potential pick at that spot. As for Adam, I thought he should have been traded last year when he wasn't in a walk year so they could have gotten the most value for him. Now, with him struggling again, they have to wait until he picks it up -- as he always does -- and then deal him near the deadline. I wouldn't be surprised if they hold onto him and take the draft pick either though. Plus, the other reason why I don't think Pedro will be up comes down to Pearce. They have to want to give him a shot at 1B and see if maybe he can deliver some power at some point.

Well, when you take a pitcher who needs TJ surgery every draft, that's when you get to where you are now. Thanks Dave Littlefield. Funny how the moment they draft McCutchen and then Alvarez, they suddenly have two guys in the top 50 prospects in the MLB. Brad Lincoln was a good pick too, he was considered the best pitching prospect in his class that season, it sucks that he had to get sidelined with TJ surgery, but unlike our other picks, his talent level seems to be higher, he's bounced back well. Still not at the level you'd like him to be, but right off of the surgery, he's looking pretty decent in AA.

I still don't like Pearce, I think he's just another AA/AAA power guy whose power isn't going to follow him to the MLB.

I'm in agreeance with ChaseB that Pedro won't be up this year. I also think it's best to wait until next year as not to start his arbitration clock.

Regarding the starting pitching... They rank slightly below the middle of the pack in the NL so I wouldn't say they've done well...average at best. Just my opinion, but I think they'll get even worse as the season progresses. Here's how I rank them now:

1. Maholm - He's been pretty consistent throughout this year. While he's had some troubles recently, I have no problems with him at all. Best pitcher on the Pirates IMO.
2. Duke - He's been surprisignly good this year and could overtake Maholm in the #1 spot. Considering how much he's struggled in years past, it's great to see him rebound this year.
3. Ohlendorf - I love his stuff. I don't think many expected a ton out of him this year so it's nice to see him pitch well.
4. Karstens - I've never been a fan. I don't like his stuff, but give him credit for his moxy. He understands he has to rely on his defense to win him games and he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of.
5. Snell - Love his stuff...incredibly disappointed in his performance. He's walking way too many hitters and has been incredibly inconsistent.

Just a quick overview. I'd get into more detailed analysis (I'm a stats geek and saber guy), but I'm at work and don't have the time.

I know I'm going to come across as overly negative, but I don't think this team is as close as some do. I still think they need to make some pretty big moves to get to where they want to be in 2011. They also have some big issues coming up... Resign Jack Wilson or trade him? Resign Adam LaRoche or trade him? I think JW's stock has risen recently after watching Bixler stink it up. I like Brian Friday, but I think he's still a year or 2 away (and had a little setback recently battling vertigo).

Their pitching staff is not that bad, it's solid, despite their skid recently. Their bullpen on the other hand, is awful. Tyler Yates is so bad, and he's considered their top reliever who isn't Matt Capps.

Even with how bad the Pirates have played lately, their pitchers have still given winnable performances in a number of those games. Duke has been very good this season, he's only had one bad start. I still like Ohlendorf too, he's more of a back of the rotation guy, but I think he'll be a good one at that.

They need to go FA for a SS or make a trade. They're SO bad at the SS position. Brian Bixler might be the single worst player in the entire MLB since they've called him up, last year and this year included. He can't field, he can't hit at all, he's just horrendous. It's painful to watch the guy. On the other hand, Jack Wilson sucks very much too. Offensively he's nothing at all. I don't know how the draft looks in terms of infield prospects, but if they could get a top SS prospect in the first round, that would be ideal.

With how bad Bixler is, I'd say there's no way Jack Wilson gets traded. Plus, management has this weird thing about him where they won't trade him. If you don't trade the guy for Jair Jurrjens straight up, then something is seriously wrong.

They did right by their Bay/Nady trades last season, they need to continue that trend. Unload your veteran players for prospects, and continue drafting well, that's the only way you're going to win with that payroll. Right now, you have Adam LaRoche, Jack Wilson, and Freddy Sanchez. If I were running the Pirates, none of them would be wearing a Pirates uniform by next season. Maybe Sanchez, just to see if he has a bounceback enough of a season to improve his stock.

I was reading an article, don't remember if it was in the Post-Gazette or what, about how Nate McLouth's highest value to us as a team is as trade bait. And I actually agree with that. There's a lot of teams that need an established CF. They brought up the Braves as a great candidate to unload a guy like McLouth to, since they're loaded with some great young talent. They just signed Nate to a 3 year deal and everything, so I'm not saying he needs to be traded, but if someone really wants him by the All-Star break and you get a great offer, I would take it in a heartbeat.

I mentioned him earlier, but anyone remember Chad Hermansen? He was EXTREMELY talented and tore through all levels of the minor leagues for the Pirates. He struggled defensively, but was very good offensively (although he did K a bit much). Hit the MLB level and stunk.

Nothing is for certain when dealing with draft picks. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Pedro will pan out and become a very good to great MLB player, but ya never know.

Oh I agree completely. No matter who it is, there's still going to be the If's. Any prospect can be a bust if he's not handled properly, regardless of their talent. And on the same coin, any prospect might just not be able to make the adjustment to the MLB.

When you're the level of prospect a Pedro is though, it's one of those situations where the only way you bust is probably because of a poor farm system, which the Pirates do have.

I'm glad people here actually follow the Pirates. Everyone I know has stopped paying attention by this point, I can rant and discuss them endlessly though.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I'd say Matt Capps is officially done as the Pirates closer at this point. He hasn't been the same since the injury last year, and now he's injured again this year. He's been abysmal.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Here's how I rank them now:

1. Maholm - He's been pretty consistent throughout this year. While he's had some troubles recently, I have no problems with him at all. Best pitcher on the Pirates IMO.
2. Duke - He's been surprisignly good this year and could overtake Maholm in the #1 spot. Considering how much he's struggled in years past, it's great to see him rebound this year.
3. Ohlendorf - I love his stuff. I don't think many expected a ton out of him this year so it's nice to see him pitch well.
4. Karstens - I've never been a fan. I don't like his stuff, but give him credit for his moxy. He understands he has to rely on his defense to win him games and he doesn't try to do more than he's capable of.
5. Snell - Love his stuff...incredibly disappointed in his performance. He's walking way too many hitters and has been incredibly inconsistent.

My own feelings on the starters:

Maholm - Not as crazy about him as most Pirates fans. I think he's a third starter on a playoff squad (which is totally fine) and last year was probably his career year from an ERA perspective. Good control, though, he just doesn't have the top-level control you need if you want to get by with not striking out many people.

Duke - Took him a few years to get over being screwed up by Tracy and Colburn but now he's closer to where he will be moving ahead. I also like him more than Maholm but he's still third-starter level. He's obviously never going to have an ERA around 2.00 or whatever it was his rookie year, but I think he has a higher ceiling than Maholm.

Ohlendorf - It's crazy to think that he might be the best player in either of the two major deals the Pirates made last year, but I think it's certainly a possibility. I really like his stuff, and while his velocity is down, he's starting to use that hard sinker more effectively. I'm excited to see where this kid goes moving forward.

Karstens - He's fodder until someone better is ready. He's pitching better lately because he's locating his offspeed pitches, but he's still going to be on the outs eventually.

Snell - I've always been a defender of Snell, but he does have a tendency to walk too many hitters and he's in search of his best stuff much like Gorzo. I still think he's worth keeping around though, plus they already paid him.

I know I'm going to come across as overly negative, but I don't think this team is as close as some do. I still think they need to make some pretty big moves to get to where they want to be in 2011. They also have some big issues coming up... Resign Jack Wilson or trade him? Resign Adam LaRoche or trade him? I think JW's stock has risen recently after watching Bixler stink it up. I like Brian Friday, but I think he's still a year or 2 away (and had a little setback recently battling vertigo).

Jack must have been out of his mind to come up to the Pirates before the season and ask for a new contract. Regardless of how bad the options are below him, he is a dime a dozen and it's not a hard decision to move on from him. He had one fluke year where he had a ton of hits, otherwise he is easily replaceable -- perhaps just not from within quite yet. (Friday looks good though, and a couple years off, D'Arnaud could be an option.)

I'm not sure if you trade LaRoche or just take the draft picks. I would probably still try to trade him since I'm not sure he'd qualify as a Type A free agent, but regardless he is not someone that should come back because he's not part of the future plans. You take what you can get for him now and use the parts in return to build towards the years where the Pirates will be more competitive.

I know, neither Monroe or Hinske have looked great by any means, but both have at least shown that they can give some power. That's what the Pirates desperately need right now.

Andy was benched for various reasons. He was a mental mess when they started the season, you could tell just by watching him in his first two games. He looked like he was going to have a breakdown in his first couple of at bats, and then the horrible errors. Once he relaxed, he's been fine. I think the benching had a good deal to do with that.[/quote]

Brandon Moss is now saying, do you still want Monroe or Hinske out there?

And I totally agree wit the benching of Andy because he did have some mental things and mechanical issues to work out. I just don't think a multiple-game benching is necessary for a player like Moss who was simply struggling to hit.

Well, when you take a pitcher who needs TJ surgery every draft, that's when you get to where you are now. Thanks Dave Littlefield. Funny how the moment they draft McCutchen and then Alvarez, they suddenly have two guys in the top 50 prospects in the MLB. Brad Lincoln was a good pick too, he was considered the best pitching prospect in his class that season, it sucks that he had to get sidelined with TJ surgery, but unlike our other picks, his talent level seems to be higher, he's bounced back well. Still not at the level you'd like him to be, but right off of the surgery, he's looking pretty decent in AA.

Brad Lincoln looks great. Great control, great K rate, great numbers overall. He is back on the fast track I would say -- assuming there are no more injury setbacks. It's weird that no one talks about this guy. After all, he is a top pick and him and Cutch are two of the few solid players Davey Boy picked. I don't think it can be said enough how poor the drafting has been until recently though. Truly a travesty of epic proportions.

I still don't like Pearce, I think he's just another AA/AAA power guy whose power isn't going to follow him to the MLB.

I don't think Pearce is another Brad Eldred, but I don't think he has the power of Eldred either. Nevertheless, I think you need to give him a legitimate chance after LaRoche gets traded/let go. His numbers have continued to be solid and he at least deserves a chance to showcase himself so he can perhaps be dealt later on for something of worth.

They need to go FA for a SS or make a trade. They're SO bad at the SS position. Brian Bixler might be the single worst player in the entire MLB since they've called him up, last year and this year included. He can't field, he can't hit at all, he's just horrendous. It's painful to watch the guy. On the other hand, Jack Wilson sucks very much too. Offensively he's nothing at all. I don't know how the draft looks in terms of infield prospects, but if they could get a top SS prospect in the first round, that would be ideal.

With how bad Bixler is, I'd say there's no way Jack Wilson gets traded. Plus, management has this weird thing about him where they won't trade him. If you don't trade the guy for Jair Jurrjens straight up, then something is seriously wrong.

They tried to trade Wilson to the Dodgers last year, but LA balked at a certain prospect being included in the deal. I know there is at least one SS prospect (Grant Green) in this year's draft that is supposed to go top 5, but scouts don't seem to be universally sold on his talent. At this point, it seems like the Pirates might choose a pitcher with an early pick, which I'm not crazy about since it's always a crapshoot picking a pitcher that early.

They did right by their Bay/Nady trades last season, they need to continue that trend. Unload your veteran players for prospects, and continue drafting well, that's the only way you're going to win with that payroll. Right now, you have Adam LaRoche, Jack Wilson, and Freddy Sanchez. If I were running the Pirates, none of them would be wearing a Pirates uniform by next season. Maybe Sanchez, just to see if he has a bounceback enough of a season to improve his stock.

I was reading an article, don't remember if it was in the Post-Gazette or what, about how Nate McLouth's highest value to us as a team is as trade bait. And I actually agree with that. There's a lot of teams that need an established CF. They brought up the Braves as a great candidate to unload a guy like McLouth to, since they're loaded with some great young talent. They just signed Nate to a 3 year deal and everything, so I'm not saying he needs to be traded, but if someone really wants him by the All-Star break and you get a great offer, I would take it in a heartbeat.

Trade Freddy too. He's playing really well this year and they should capitalize on that.

And yeah, I've always been a believer that it is smart to trade guys sooner rather than later on bad squads. You just get way more value when you trade a guy with multiple years remaining on a manageable contract, rather than waiting until it's a contract year and the value is diminished since there are no guarantees the player comes back.

I'd say Matt Capps is officially done as the Pirates closer at this point. He hasn't been the same since the injury last year, and now he's injured again this year. He's been abysmal.

He's definitely struggling with injuries but don't give up on him yet. I hope he recovers his value as a pitcher since general managers always overpay for a "closer" (aka a made up role that is overvalued).

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Jack must have been out of his mind to come up to the Pirates before the season and ask for a new contract. Regardless of how bad the options are below him, he is a dime a dozen and it's not a hard decision to move on from him. He had one fluke year where he had a ton of hits, otherwise he is easily replaceable -- perhaps just not from within quite yet. (Friday looks good though, and a couple years off, D'Arnaud could be an option.)

I'm not sure if you trade LaRoche or just take the draft picks. I would probably still try to trade him since I'm not sure he'd qualify as a Type A free agent, but regardless he is not someone that should come back because he's not part of the future plans. You take what you can get for him now and use the parts in return to build towards the years where the Pirates will be more competitive.

The reason I say trade LaRoche is because a lot of teams need a power first baseman. Whenever it gets to the midway point of the season, teams will panic and try to get that extra power bat. The Pirates could get a decent prospect out of trading him, and obviously he's of no real use to us. He's just occupying space until Pedro comes up.

As for Jack, yeah, what a complete waste he is. He makes some cool defensive plays, okay. But he hasn't done anything remotely close to justifying the contract he's on. Offensively he's awful, and that's the Pirates biggest concern. I'd say he's much more valuable in a trade, but yeah, how can you trade him now that you've seen what Brian Bixler is. To be fair though, Freddy Sanchez can play SS. He actually plays a pretty good SS. If you want to trade Jack, you could move Freddy and then bring someone up to play second.

And I totally agree wit the benching of Andy because he did have some mental things and mechanical issues to work out. I just don't think a multiple-game benching is necessary for a player like Moss who was simply struggling to hit.

He's not just struggling, he's been useless at the plate. He's done literally nothing this season. You can't accept that kind of production out of RF, that's a position where you expect some power numbers. I don't know what you do with the situation, either way it's not helping the team.

Brad Lincoln looks great. Great control, great K rate, great numbers overall. He is back on the fast track I would say -- assuming there are no more injury setbacks. It's weird that no one talks about this guy. After all, he is a top pick and him and Cutch are two of the few solid players Davey Boy picked. I don't think it can be said enough how poor the drafting has been until recently though. Truly a travesty of epic proportions.

Yes, he does. I'm very pleased with that. There's a guy who is just so super talented and motivated that not even TJ surgery can set him back. Everyone who watched him says he looks stronger than ever off the surgery, it's great news. The Pirates are sooooooo weak in the pitching deparatment in the farm system.

To be fair, Lincoln and Cutch were no brainers. Not even Littlefield could screw that up. But then again they said the same thing about Wieters, and that's why we're watching Dan Moskos not even able to make it past A without a 10 ERA.

I don't think Pearce is another Brad Eldred, but I don't think he has the power of Eldred either. Nevertheless, I think you need to give him a legitimate chance after LaRoche gets traded/let go. His numbers have continued to be solid and he at least deserves a chance to showcase himself so he can perhaps be dealt later on for something of worth.

No, I don't think he's Brad Eldred V.2. I think he actually has some plate discipline and a somewhat decent eye. I just think his power isn't going to translate into the MLB. He might be a somewhat productive player, but I really don't see him ever being the 25-30 HR guy that so many people hope.

He could be a good fill-in for Adam LaRoche if he's traded midseason, until Pedro is ready.

Trade Freddy too. He's playing really well this year and they should capitalize on that.

And yeah, I've always been a believer that it is smart to trade guys sooner rather than later on bad squads. You just get way more value when you trade a guy with multiple years remaining on a manageable contract, rather than waiting until it's a contract year and the value is diminished since there are no guarantees the player comes back.

It's the only way the Pirates will ever win, that's for sure. They aren't going to increase the payroll, unless someone new buys the team, which will never happen since the Nuttings are raking in MILLIONS off of their losing. So therefore you have to trade, dump salary, rebuild with prospects. Neil Huntington seems to know the score though, I don't think he's done a "great" job, because I really think he could of gotten a helluva lot more for Jason Bay than he did, but he's done a pretty good job. Much, much better than anyone else in recent years.

He's definitely struggling with injuries but don't give up on him yet. I hope he recovers his value as a pitcher since general managers always overpay for a "closer" (aka a made up role that is overvalued).

I think it's more so on injuries than anything, but wow has he been bad. When a guy is that ineffective as your closer, you gotta step back for a bit, even if it's just temporary. I don't feel the closer role is overvalued at all. If the Sox didn't have Papelbon, if the Phillies didn't have Lidge, if the Cardinals didn't have Wainwright, none of them would of won World Series in the past few years.


You know what kills me? Is that Russell doesn't seem to grasp the concept of offense. Since his benching, Andy LaRoche has been the most consistent every day hitter on the team. He's usually a safe bet to get at least one hit every night. He has 20 RBI's out of the 7 hole, which on any team at this point is good, but that's on the PIRATES. How many RBI opportunities can you get on the Pirates in the 7 hole? And all the while, the top of the order sucks. They aren't hitting. Nate isn't hitting, Freddy isn't hitting, Nyjer isn't hitting, Adam isn't hitting. So why do you not move Andy into the 3 spot? Or the 5 spot. Either works. They need to get him more RBI chances, because he's shown that he can deliver.

[ChaseB]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

He's not just struggling, he's been useless at the plate. He's done literally nothing this season. You can't accept that kind of production out of RF, that's a position where you expect some power numbers. I don't know what you do with the situation, either way it's not helping the team.

Brandon Moss has been on fire lately and he won't continue at this pace, it helps level out the slow start and put him more towards what he will do in the majors. So, now seeing that he is hitting well, it was a good call not to do the multiple-game benching. Once again, he wasn't playing poorly in the field or slacking etc. he just wasn't getting hits, which you can live with when it comes to a young guy that you are giving a chance.

I think it's more so on injuries than anything, but wow has he been bad. When a guy is that ineffective as your closer, you gotta step back for a bit, even if it's just temporary. I don't feel the closer role is overvalued at all. If the Sox didn't have Papelbon, if the Phillies didn't have Lidge, if the Cardinals didn't have Wainwright, none of them would of won World Series in the past few years.


You know what kills me? Is that Russell doesn't seem to grasp the concept of offense. Since his benching, Andy LaRoche has been the most consistent every day hitter on the team. He's usually a safe bet to get at least one hit every night. He has 20 RBI's out of the 7 hole, which on any team at this point is good, but that's on the PIRATES. How many RBI opportunities can you get on the Pirates in the 7 hole? And all the while, the top of the order sucks. They aren't hitting. Nate isn't hitting, Freddy isn't hitting, Nyjer isn't hitting, Adam isn't hitting. So why do you not move Andy into the 3 spot? Or the 5 spot. Either works. They need to get him more RBI chances, because he's shown that he can deliver.

It's overvalued because sure there are certain terminators like Papelbon, but there are plenty of Capps and Kochs and Isringhausens and now someone like Franklin who can have a nice fat number of saves next to his name, who then all the sudden becomes very valuable because of it. I mean, let's not forget it's just a RP and the way some GMs get swindled into giving up some really solid talent for a RP is still quite scary. You can sometimes understand overpaying for RP at the trade deadline because teams get desperate, but a lot of bad moves for RPs have been made during the offseason. Capps is a guy that can bring more in return than he probably should if he gets healthy and pitches well again.

As for Andy, yeah I'm not sure. I don't know if they don't want to mess with his confidence or they think he doesn't hit for enough power or what, but he shouldn't hit 7th. He has gotten a couple chances to hit 5th, but otherwise he has been down in the lineup pretty far. He has shown he can hit doubles at a nice clip, and he hit an absolutely HUGE bomb against the Nats the other day -- and then hit a warning track shot tonight against the White Sox -- but it's a little bit of a question mark at this point either way.