2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

[kayfngee]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

No issue with Latos abdominal just sore arm and more than confident in Cueto, at this point and our fan base Id rather see this team on the road than playing at home.

There is nothing wrong with the fan base. They had high expectations and shouldn't apologize for that. This team was a disappointment all year, especially late. When they needed timely hitting or a dominant pitching performance, nobody stepped up.

I'm worried that this team's window for winning a World Series has closed. The pitching should continue to be strong, but will they ever get a dominant post season start when they need one? The offense will only get worse when Choo leaves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

[CaseIH]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

Your criticism of Votto doesn't line up with how baseball games are won or Votto's actual plate approach. It's really tiring to see this stuff from Reds fans.

The leadership thing is also bull. These are professionals; they're always playing hard because it's their job. What happened last night was Liriano can't be hit by lefties and the righties didn't step up. Even more importantly Dusty started a guy that has two starts since the All-Star break, which in my opinion was not smart at all. Cueto was missing the zone by a mile and was put in a spot to fail with the pressure. The game would have looked a lot different if the Reds starter could have gone 6-7 innings while giving up a couple runs to match Liriano.

Some of you need to pull your head out of Bill James rear with these saber metric stats and quit thinking OBP is the Holy Grail of baseball. Sure its very important, but there are a lot of other stats besides just OBP and being happy cauase someone hit .300.
Vottos defense was absolutely terrible this year, he K'd way to much, an sadly enough he was caught looking 40 some odd times. Now I am not for Votto expanding the K zone just to be swinging, but the opportunities were there this year and he didnt take advantage of it. I heard somewhere where even Joe Morgan said Votto has had chances this year and missed, rather than this always saying he get pitched around all the time and see nothing to hit.
Like I said in my previous post Votto is my favorite player and I have been a Reds fans since the day I was born cause my family are Reds fans, but there is something to be said for heart and leadership and this team has none of that, when Dusty even questions a teams leadership you know its sad cause he did earlier this year. Oh and all because they are paid athletes dont mean they automatically have heart and leadership

[CaseIH]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

The Reds didn't have many options for a starter with Latos ailing. Homer just pitched on Friday. Arroyo just pitched Saturday. Both of them lost to the same Pirates team. Leake was the only other option besides Cueto.

I understand your side on the leadership thing. They are professionals and should play hard. But it's still an element of team. As much as I loathe Yadier Molina, the Reds could really use someone like him. Martin helped provide that for the Bucs this year and them acquiring Byrd only helped. That's why the Reds acquired Vaughn in '99 and Rolen in 2009. It helps to have someone steering the boat. Nobody captained the Reds' ship in 2013.

Very well said. The people that want to blame Dusty for starting Cueto must not be paying much attention to the games. Cueto and Leake were really the only options with Latos elbow being a issue.
I know I would sure ther heck rather take my chances with Cueto over Leake. Leake had a nice season, but not someone I trust to pitch in a big game. Cueto just didnt have it, but people forget quickly that when healthy Cueto is 1 of the top pitchers in all of baseball. Should Dusty probably have taken him out earlier when it was obvious he didnt have it and see what leake had, maybe, but then if Leake had gotten shelled then people would say what was Dusty thinking bringing in that weak arm pitcher,lol.
I do think we need a change at manager, and the hitting coach is the biggest issue and has been for a while now, but this loss last night is all on Dusty. Plenty of blame to go around for all.

[slickdtc]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

What Votto gets paid has nothing to do with whether he should change his approach or not. He's always going to walk a ton, and he'll get his 30-ish HR's. He did have a down year as far as production outside of his walks/OBP, but even in a down year it was an amazing year in some aspects for him. I believe it's the Reds job to surround Votto with the right players to compliment his style. He makes them better more so then he makes himself look good.

Dusty needs to go. He's a burden on this team. The pressure is always going to be that much more ramped up because of his track record in make or break situations. The Reds have tried his approach, and it has brought success. But the bar has been raised, and a championship is all that matters. I'll take another 10 years of losing if that means we get one World Series. The Reds need a change, plain and simple. Someone more forward thinking to match the approach that the best player on the team has. I almost feel like Baker resents Votto because he doesn't play that old-school type of game.

Regardless, it's going to be a long winter for this team and us, the fans. There doesn't need to be sweeping changes, but I do believe we've reached a point now to where some type of changing up the staff or lineup needs happen or we're going to see the same results or worse.

[slickdtc]

2013 Cincinnati Reds Thread

The Cueto thing isn't even an issue in my mind. He was our best option, and i said it before the game but i still felt good with him on the hill. Preferred Latos but that wasnt an option.

Our bats did not show up and that is the biggest reason why we lost.

[Son of Sam99]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

The Cueto thing isn't even an issue in my mind. He was our best option, and i said it before the game but i still felt good with him on the hill. Preferred Latos but that wasnt an option.

Our bats did not show up and that is the biggest reason why we lost.

Just some food for though on the Votto discussion which I prey doesn't exist next year.

Joey Votto Batting Average on Balls in Play:
2009: .372
2010: .361
2011: .349
2012: .404
2013: .360

League Average all 5 seasons was right around .297 (.299 was highest).

2012: BB 25% ABs/ SO 22% ABs/ WAR: 5.6
2013: BB 23% ABs/ SO 23% ABs/ WAR:

2011 WAR: 6.2
2012 WAR: 5.6
2013 WAR: 6.4

[jasontoddwhitt]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

Some of you need to pull your head out of Bill James rear with these saber metric stats and quit thinking OBP is the Holy Grail of baseball. Sure its very important, but there are a lot of other stats besides just OBP and being happy cauase someone hit .300.
Vottos defense was absolutely terrible this year, he K'd way to much, an sadly enough he was caught looking 40 some odd times. Now I am not for Votto expanding the K zone just to be swinging, but the opportunities were there this year and he didnt take advantage of it. I heard somewhere where even Joe Morgan said Votto has had chances this year and missed, rather than this always saying he get pitched around all the time and see nothing to hit.
Like I said in my previous post Votto is my favorite player and I have been a Reds fans since the day I was born cause my family are Reds fans, but there is something to be said for heart and leadership and this team has none of that, when Dusty even questions a teams leadership you know its sad cause he did earlier this year. Oh and all because they are paid athletes dont mean they automatically have heart and leadership

I think the issue with Votto this year was two fold....

1) He wasn't 100%.
2) He only got one game off.

Back in spring training, I read an article where Votto was quoted saying his knee still wasn't 100%. That, combined with Dusty never taking him out of the lineup (so what if he says he's good, you're the manager, not his best friend), I doubt his knee ever did get to 100%. His range at first base was nothing like it was back during his MVP season. He was a decent baserunner before the injury. Now, not so much. His power is way down from his MVP season (still higher than last year after the injury, when he became a singles hitter).

You say he K'd too much. His K rate was right in line with his 2010 MVP season (19% vs 19.3%) Yeah, he's not swinging as much as he used to (40.3% vs 47.9%), but his contact rate is up (80.9% vs 77.7%) and his swinging strike rate is down (7.4% vs 10.4%). I'm not going to discuss the RBI situation, because that is relative to the team. I can count the many times where Dusty took the bat out of Joey's hands by having the #2 hitter sacrifice the leadoff man to second, inviting a IBB or a pitch around.

Joey Votto had a great year. It wasn't quite to Votto's standards, but he still ranked 11th in WAR this year. He was not the problem this year.

EDIT:
I wanted to post this because it was an excellent article over at Redleg Nation

The Baker Ceiling

As crushing as last season’s postseason loss to the Giants was, I wrote that Dusty Baker deserved to be rehired. Not that he was necessarily the best guy for the job, only that he’d earned his return with 97 wins in a season when Votto’s knee and Madson’s elbow had shredded.

In the aftermath of another terribly disappointing finish, I’ve reached a different conclusion. But maybe not for the reasons you expect.

And before I get started, I want to be crystal clear about this: The failure of the Cincinnati Reds is not primarily Dusty Baker’s fault.

Today, Dusty Baker is an easy, convenient explanation for all the Reds deficiencies. But it’s wrong to exonerate the players. They themselves are ultimately responsible for their shortcomings on the field.

And as I’ve been saying all year, the front office was seduced by the comfortable status quo. Other than the Stubbs-for-Choo trade, the Reds have been far too complacent to expect to win the division. The Chapman disarmament, not fully responding to Ryan Ludwick’s injury, and the trade deadline paralysis, were all steps that created strong headwinds for the team’s success.

That all said, just as criticizing the manager isn’t the same as saying everything was his fault, acknowledging the failure of the players and GM doesn’t absolve Dusty Baker.

My case for replacing the Reds’ manager is not about lineups and bunts, (collectively known as the Baker Tax). As Chad Dotson pointed out, a different manager may not be better when it comes to in-game tactical decisions. Dusty Baker is far from the only graduate of the Old School. If the Reds replaced Baker with Jim Leyland, you’d be cringing at just as many sacrifice bunts and his misuse of the #2 lineup spot. Ask Tigers’ fans.

The reason the Reds need a new manager isn’t the Baker Tax. It’s the Baker Ceiling.

Dusty Baker is first and foremost a player’s manager. He reasonably believes, based on his own considerable experience as a major league player and then as manager, that if he can put his own players at ease they’ll perform better. It’s a genuine and thoughtful formula from a man who deeply cares about his team and wants more than anything for them to win.

Baker implements his approach, in part, by assigning defined roles to players – whether a lineup spot, a position on the field, a fixed pitcher-catcher battery, or a relief pitching duty. Then, once the role is assigned, Baker resists change. Other managers, like Joe Maddon of the Tampa Bay Rays, routinely switch batting orders and fielding positions around.

Again, for Baker, it’s about making the players comfortable to help them play relaxed.

Part of that is minimizing the threat that the player will lose his role. The theory goes, you don’t want players looking over their shoulders at other players or their manager.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Dusty Baker’s philosophy. Managers and head coaches in other sports have been successful with it. For certain teams at specific times, it’s absolutely the right approach. There’s even an argument that Dusty Baker was the right manager for the development of the Reds in recent years.

But at other times, a club needs someone like Lou Pinella.

Being a player’s manager is directly at odds with holding players strictly accountable for their performance. It also conflicts with vigorously challenging your players to do better. Over time, it begins to show. As the Reds slouched toward elimination, we witnessed horrific base running mistakes, batters swinging at pitches way out of the strike zone, players going half speed down the first base line and the careless fielding errors, many at first base.

The Reds too often play like no one on the field or in the dugout is concerned with fundamentals.

But the problem with Baker’s recipe goes beyond the culture of unaccountability.

His approach of keeping the players loose also ill-prepares them to win at the end of the season. Dusty Baker tries to shield his team from pressure, consciously downplaying the “must win” importance of any regular season games.

Due to its private nature, we generally don’t know how a manager handles his clubhouse. But in this case, we do have a peek inside from, of all the unlikely places, Marty Brennaman’s pre-game interviews with Baker himself.

Several times in the past few weeks, the Reds Hall of Fame announcer has prefaced a question to Baker with the notion that the Reds faced an important series or stretch of games. Each time, Dusty Baker clearly rejected the premise, explaining that he didn’t want his players thinking that way because it put too much pressure on them.

Jeff Brantley, after hearing those interviews and presumably with a bit of additional inside information, characterized Baker’s approach as “well, we’ll just get ‘em tomorrow.” According to the Reds broadcaster and former closer, it’s Baker’s failure to put pressure on his team throughout the year that best explains why, “when it comes down to crunch time ballgames, they come up short.”

You can’t take the stress off your players all season and expect them to handle it when it inevitably arrives at the end. Brantley made the point last night that the Pirates, in contrast, had lived under pressure all season. “They pushed and pushed and pushed all year because people kept telling them they were going to collapse.”

I’ve been at games this season when, in contrast to Dusty Baker, Clint Hurdle and Mike Matheny, were managing like the game had great importance. It adds up. And it’s become a pattern now with the Reds. When the team reached for a faster speed this week, they not only couldn’t find it, they slipped out of gear. It was painfully obvious last night that one of the teams was ready to face the pressure and one wasn’t.

If the Reds’ organization wants to go farther than they did the past two seasons, they have to make a fundamental change in their approach. They need a new voice at the top — one that preaches and follows through with accountability, mental toughness and attention to details.

I doubt Dusty Baker would do it and it’s not even fair to ask him.

He’s taken this group of players as far as he can.

[PhantomPain]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

I agree with these points:

Dusty should go
Jacoby should go

As for Votto and you all you saber peeps out there. I get some of the saber stuff, truly, some of it makes a great deal of sense. What I think a lot of you are not taking into account is that Votto was signed to a 10 year deal making over $20 million a year. He didn't get signed to that just because he has a good eye at the plate. He got that coming off a a tremendous season after improving year to year. Votto has his approach to hitting and that's fine. He is a terrible out for most teams. With that said, he is no longer a 3 hitter. He is more of a 2 hitter now. That's fine, he would have had a ridiculous season as a 2 hitter. But as a 3 hitter, it was ok. Not horrible and definitely not great.

Question for lonewolf371: How is it that you think the game of baseball is won? I will give you a hint. You have to score runs. And how do runs get scored? There are essentially 4 ways. You can walk a runner in. You can score on an error. You can sacrifice them in (I am including a squeeze in that category) and finally you can get a hit. Out of those 4 ways to score runs, which is needed to win a game, which one happens most often?

Votto says that he had 2 guys behind him get 100 rbi's so that should be enough. Well news flash, those 2 guys had that many RBI's because he wasn't getting them. Oh yeah, Frazier tied Votto for 3rd on the team for driving in runs...which you need to win a game. Frazier! Cozart was only 10 RBI's behind Votto.

I'm sorry, but if any of you think that any player in the MLB deserves $20 million+ per year to basically just have a good on base percentage then YOU don't know the game of baseball or where the value of a player truly is at. If he makes $12 million per year and batted 2nd, EVERYONE would be praising him. Saber peeps and old school peeps.

slickdtc: what he gets paid and why he got that MONSTER contract to begin with is to produce runs in many facets of the game. From hits to walks to home runs. He is no longer doing all of that which makes him a lot less valuable.

FWIW, I am only pounding on Votto for the people that think he had a great season and deserves no criticism. Outside of that I like Votto a lot and still think he is one of the best hitters in the game. But A) No one should ever get a 10 year contract in any sport as you never know when their career will take a downturn. I blame ownership on that one. B) Anyone that is getting paid that much money needs to do more, plain and simple.

[HustlinOwl]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

Why can't you allow people to have their own expectations? It's cool that you can look at where you've been and be happy with where you(Reds) are. Some of us, take another look and see where we could be. There's a next step here, and the Reds haven't taken it regardless of whatever reason. It's not unheard of for people who are fans of playoff teams, to actually want their team to win some playoff series. Let people have their expectations, man. You don't need to be the Red's/Dusty's apologist.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

wtf who said you cant have your own expectations last I checked this was a forum and opinions will be different. You want a championship every year and I want a competitive team that will compete every year for a championship and that is what we have again IMO. Team made no moves at the deadline where other teams did, key players were injured all year and this team never recovered pretty simple as that and they finished where they should given all circumstances.

[TheShizNo1]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

wtf who said you cant have your own expectations last I checked this was a forum and opinions will be different. You want a championship every year and I want a competitive team that will compete every year for a championship and that is what we have again IMO. Team made no moves at the deadline where other teams did, key players were injured all year and this team never recovered pretty simple as that and they finished where they should given all circumstances.

You say it. Read through this thread. Every time someone says something against Dusty of the Reds, you jump right in and defend as if the person is crazy for having that opinion. You would also troll after a win saying how great Dusty is. Now, I would've thought it was genuine, but they came after the heated debate that took place in this thread about Dusty needing to go.

You have no idea what I expect. I'm not one of the ones wasting time arguing with you. What I want is somewhere in between what you want and the whole championship thing.

And if you're completely happy with just competing, yes I question that, because that isn't the ultimate goal. Fans expect this team to bring in a championship because that's what the team is capable of. Most fans want to see their teams reach their potential. If this was a average team, then i think no one would be complaining.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

[HustlinOwl]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

You say it. Read through this thread. Every time someone says something against Dusty of the Reds, you jump right in and defend as if the person is crazy for having that opinion. You would also troll after a win saying how great Dusty is. Now, I would've thought it was genuine, but they came after the heated debate that took place in this thread about Dusty needing to go.

You have no idea what I expect. I'm not one of the ones wasting time arguing with you. What I want is somewhere in between what you want and the whole championship thing.

And if you're completely happy with just competing, yes I question that, because that isn't the ultimate goal. Fans expect this team to bring in a championship because that's what the team is capable of. Most fans want to see their teams reach their potential. If this was a average team, then i think no one would be complaining.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

Dusty has a year remaining on his contract and owed 3.5M, sorry this team is not going to just absorb that lost and bring another Manager in here besides that who is even out there to replace him??

[TheShizNo1]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

Dusty has a year remaining on his contract and owed 3.5M, sorry this team is not going to just absorb that lost and bring another Manager in here besides that who is even out there to replace him??

Lol nevermind, man.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

[slickdtc]

2013 Cincinnati Reds Thread

@PhantomPain: I think Votto's contract is dictating any vitriol aimed his way. But that was a club decision, not Votto's. Just as the Flyers were to blame for Bryzgalov falling below expectations and why he was run off after just 2 seasons. Giving a player so many years and so much money just extremely rarely works out. It creates impossible expectations that Votto could keep up his MVP pace.

I don't think of players in terms of their contract numbers. The business side of sports isn't my thing. Yeah, I know there are financial parameters teams must adhere to, but Votto had a hell of a season and it's just ludicrous to me that people want so much more from him. This is what Votto is and what he has always been. His "sexy" numbers were down, but he helped his teammates in ways statistics probably can't explain (other then huge numbers from those guys). I believe he'll come closer to the numbers that earned him that contract.

Also, like you said, as a #2 hitter, it was an amazing season. As a #3, we expect 40 bombs and 120 RBI's. But that is Dusty Baker's decision. He doesn't put his team and lineup in the best position to win. Once again, it falls back on Baker and his inability to adapt to his team's strengths and weaknesses. It kinda makes me sick to think we're leaving runs and wins on the table and for what? The eye test? Comfort? Because this is how they did it back in the day?

It's really just a difference of opinion. I believe helping his teammates makes up for any individual achievements his contract may dictate he should have had.

I just can't look at our best player and say, you need to do more when he has done so much. I'm looking at the other guys, hey why didn't you get on base a little more, why didn't you get a couple more clutch hits? That's an organization problem and a manager problem.

They didn't come up big last night though. And there's no excuse for that. Last night wasn't on Baker. Our best hitters didn't hit. Plain and simple.

[redsrule]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

His offense doesn't bother me one bit. Sure I would like him to swing a bit more with men on base and not just take the walk when the pitch is close, but what bothers me is his defense. It was just atrocious this year, which is weird considering how good he was last year.

[HustlinOwl]

re: 2014 Cincinnati Reds Thread

was the knee injury Votto did not have a real offseason to prepare as he was rehabbing more than anything