Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

[CD90]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Imagine your opponent has a team that likes to drive into the paint and TWO really good spoot up shooters.
How would you set the POEs?

Nobody inside would leave both shooters wide open everytime.
You can also say concentrate on Shooter A, but this still leaves one open.

Defensive Settings offered more options.
I like the idea behind POE, but it needs some tweaking.

Yea Points of Emphasis is definitely better then last-gen where everyone would just put play tight and deny ball.

That's not a issue of defensive settings.
That are people that "don't play basketball" (da_czar voice)!
Like people only shooting 3s online and so on.

[So Steezyy]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Imagine your opponent has a team that likes to drive into the paint and TWO really good spoot up shooters.
How would you set the POEs?

Nobody inside would leave both shooters wide open everytime.
You can also say concentrate on Shooter A, but this still leaves one open.

Defensive Settings offered more options.
I like the idea behind POE, but it needs some tweaking.

If the drivers are really good I use Nobody inside. As long as you contest the 3pt shot even slightly it is usually going to be a C+ or lower and will rarely go in.

Also if we were able to change the coach profiles like we used to be able to that makes guarding the 3pt shot a lot easier as well.

[tha_show256]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Two things:

1. I will try to get a Points Of Emphasis, in depth writeup for you guys from dev.

2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long? I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game. I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback.

I've seemed to have more competitive games in next-gen than ever before.

POE in conjunction with defensive would be AWESOME!! Defensive settings also help defend the pick n roll, it helps defend a streak shooter who seems to be nailing everything he throws up. It helps tone down the help defense which leaves players way to open with POE in its current state. I know you the risk of leaving people open in a trapping defense, but if you can lag off of certain none threats then you wouldn't as much issue as we have now...See where I'm coming from??

[mythreesons]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Two things:

1. I will try to get a Points Of Emphasis, in depth writeup for you guys from dev.

2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long? I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game. I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback.

I've seemed to have more competitive games in next-gen than ever before.

Thanks for the input LD2K. I was hoping this would catch someone's eye who could make this happen. Yes having to add settings to every player was the down side of defensive-settings. But not knowing what the POE does is frustrating. If I/we knew what it does it would minimize the frustration. Having said that it still seems that I can't cover all my bases with the POE. What if I want to sag-off of Chandler and deny the ball for Melo? Additionally I want to double-team the ball on picks. It seems that the flex setting seems to address this to some degree, but I'm not sure.

To me, it seems a no-brainer that if you introduce a new feature - particular one that appears to take away from it's predecessor - you would explain in detail how the new one functions. Maybe it's just me?

Anyhow, thanks so much for addressing this. I look forward to input from the developers.

[So Steezyy]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Imagine your opponent has a team that likes to drive into the paint and TWO really good spoot up shooters.
How would you set the POEs?

Nobody inside would leave both shooters wide open everytime.
You can also say concentrate on Shooter A, but this still leaves one open.

Defensive Settings offered more options.
I like the idea behind POE, but it needs some tweaking.



That's not a issue of defensive settings.
That are people that "don't play basketball" (da_czar voice)!
Like people only shooting 3s online and so on.

Yea I see what you're saying, I think having defensive settings, point of emphasis, and ability to change coach profiles would be best.

[keshunleon]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

2K did a great disservice to schemes and basketball IQ when they took out defensive settings.

I like to choose who will beat me in the game.

If I'm playing against the Grizz I want to sag off T-Allen and Koufos to shoot jumpers to double Z-Bo in the paint.

POE's are a great addition (if I knew what they all intel) but if a player gets hot I should be able to focus on him and vice versa.

[Vni]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Two things:

1. I will try to get a Points Of Emphasis, in depth writeup for you guys from dev.

2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long? I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game. I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback.

I've seemed to have more competitive games in next-gen than ever before.

They should have looked into why play tight was overpowered rather than take away control from the player. If you play tight and deny passing line all game your players should suffer very early fatigue, fast players should be able to blow by the defensive player who play them too high and also start to cut more backdoor. It's the easy way out to remove control to hide a flaw within the game.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Two things:


2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long?

That is not at all close to my experience. In my experience picking Tight treated a player like they were an ok shooter and picking Deny treated a player like a great shooter (attempted to at least). That's the nuance that was removed.

I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game. I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback.

I've seemed to have more competitive games in next-gen than ever before.

That doesnt make it a replacement for defensive settings. I can give can a bunch of reasons why it isnt if you would like.

[LD2k]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Feel free to put together ideal defensive strat's and settings.

Take old system and POE into account. Will pass it on to the gameplay dev's.

[tariqosuave]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Two things:

1. I will try to get a Points Of Emphasis, in depth writeup for you guys from dev.

2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long? I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game. I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback.

I've seemed to have more competitive games in next-gen than ever before.

I liked having the option. Honestly if they both were in the game that would be ideal. I would use both. Sometimes I need to stop westbrook and durrant. Pretty much have to choose. I also hate how y'all took away the quick plays. I mean they are there but they aren't that quick. Kinda stupid. I think we need a write up of all those Dpad options.

[tha_show256]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Feel free to put together ideal defensive strat's and settings.

Take old system and POE into account. Will pass it on to the gameplay dev's.

Not sure if that was a question for the community or not...but, ideal defensive strat's depend on the situation and team your playing and also who you are playing.

[Sundown]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Two things:

1. I will try to get a Points Of Emphasis, in depth writeup for you guys from dev.

LD2k, thanks for dropping in. That would be great. Most of us are still unsure what each POE actually does and whether they're working correctly.

2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long? I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game.

Players added PLAY TIGHT to every player because PLAY TIGHT was overpowered.

Tight coverage should allow for easier driving with fast or good ball handlers on-ball and allow for more cuts off-ball, especially against less capable defenders.

The downside to playing TIGHT in real life is allowing for easy dribble penetration and cuts, which isn't always the case in 2K. Playing TIGHT on small and power forwards with no regard to their actual shooting ability should also cause massive defensive spacing issues and worse interior and post defense. Of course, this only works if defenders do not recover at unrealistically fast speeds.

In addition, playing TIGHT should result more fatigue for the defender especially if a lot of screen plays are run or if the offensive players are active.

I believe the correct solution isn't to remove Defensive Settings in favor of a less realistic system where you're simply not allowed to PLAY TIGHT on everyone, but rather to reward/punish such a strategy realistically.

Essentially, taking away Defensive Settings because POEs are more limiting and thus "play better" is fixing an un-sim problem with an even more un-sim problem.

This solution is equivalent to removing ball screens because shooters are already too good, or taking away the ability to intentionally foul because free throws percentages are too low.

I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback. I've seemed to have more competitive games in next-gen than ever before.

I do hope 2K doesn't justify removing in-depth simulation elements from 2K because it seems to play better with their removal rather than balancing them properly.

Most human players are one-dimensional in their offense, so it may feel like games are competitive because you can select the POE to match the thing they're doing over and over. When they eventually adjust, you can switch to the new appropriate POE. This seems mildly strategic, but it's more playing checkers than "chess", really. I suspect POEs would not be as useful against someone who knows their team's diverse offensive options well and can vary their offense play to play. And in either case, POEs alone are WAY less interesting and have WAY less strategic possibilities than Defensive Settings (when they are implemented correctly so that TIGHT is not always the best option).

POEs make my defensive strategizing more one dimensional than ever, especially offline, where many of us spend much more time.

Every team has both outside and inside options. Proper defensive strategizing isn't to simply be reactive limit all outside shots for awhile and switch to limiting inside shots when they opposing team starts driving. Proper defensive scheme takes into account each opposing player's strengths and weaknesses and what type of help defense they need, won't need, and where that help defense can come from.

POEs allow none of that and we're forced to live with what the AI chooses in terms of doubles, pick and roll defense, hedges, coverage-- and its impact to gameplay is doubly felt when it is not clear how a player should be guarded (a mediocre or streaky shooter getting hot or cold for example). It is here where we as players can strategize and make judgement calls, but this aspect of the game is completely taken away from us.

The result is a game where if POEs are working, you're relatively disengaged because you've selected one of 8 drop down items on a list and don't have to think about it for awhile. If they are not working--because you're playing a team that has both various offensive options meant to work together to stretch defenses-- you are unable to exploit weaknesses and take away strengths of EACH INDIVIDUAL PLAYER.

So in summary, although the addition of POEs are great in concept, it is NOT AT ALL an acceptable replacement to Defensive Settings because they take away realistic NBA defensive scheming away from us and because they provide much less strategic depth. This is going to sound a bit harsh, but 2K CANNOT be considered a serious basketball simulation if detailed and realistic strategizing is removed from one side of the ball entirely, just as 2K wouldn't be considered a sim if plays were removed on the offensive end.

If there are balance problems with these options, then I feel they should be balanced rather than removed-- otherwise, it is a bandaid fix that's less fun, less engaging, and causes more problems down the line while masking foundational issues, which is what some of us are already seeing.

[hapa17]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Two things:
2. Did you really enjoy players adding PLAY TIGHT to every offensive player and pick passing games all game long? I feel like POE need to be adjusted often and they change the way you're playing the game. I personally find it more of a chess match now than ever before in a much more balanced way. If you feel differently, feel free to always leave feedback.

If the main concern is the play tight/deny feature, then couldn't there be a compromise rather than stripping out the whole system? Couldn't we keep the PnR settings (over/under, and hard/soft hedge and double/switch)? Or perhaps there could be a "defensive style" switch: "simulation" to set all your matchups manually or "quick" to use the PoE system. Perhaps with the sag/tight/deny setting, maybe you reintroduce it with "help off of" and "don't help off of" as the options, which simply makes it so the defender doesn't drift to help as much; not necessarily to cheat the passing lane. Perhaps each defender's D-Awareness rating (or create a "D-Help" rating) could affect how well they follow the "Help" setting. Good team defenders (like, say, Battier) have a higher "Help" rating so they will stay with their assignment rather than help. Poor team defenders (like, say, Kobe ... sorry, but it's true) will tend to drift more and get caught with their pants down on a long skip pass to their assignment. Bottom line, I don't need my defenders to jump passing lanes, I just need them not to help off of specific dead-eye shooters. I was calling for this for a year or two before the manual defensive settings were introduced years ago.

I recall in the book "Seven Seconds or Less," the Phoenix coaching staff said Nash wasn't a terrible defender one on one, he just had a tendency to drift, thus hurting the team defense (correct me if I'm wrong; it's been a while since I read it). This is the kind of nuance that a help/team defense is based on and would be awesome to have in the game.

Building on the idea of making the defensive settings toggle-able, maybe make it a coaching setting, similar to auto-subs. The way I use auto-subs is I will let my players auto-sub until the 4th, at which point, depending on how the game is going, I may take over. In a similar fashion, perhaps you make PoE the sort of "auto" setting where you can make general strategic decisions, but let the computer make the fine adjustments. When you take it off of the PoE setting, then you're taking the manual fine control back from the computer (with the changes I mentioned above with the "Help off of" settings). This could be something I let the computer control for the first three quarters, then take back in the 4th. I'm suggesting this because I could see how layering PoE with Defensive Settings could be conflicting or hard to integrate over each other.

[Sundown]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

Feel free to put together ideal defensive strat's and settings.

Take old system and POE into account. Will pass it on to the gameplay dev's.

A suggestion on how to incorporate classic Defensive Settings next to POEs has already been posted.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2045687988

Essentially, it's a proposal to replace the "OFF" POE with an option to use classic Defensive Settings as its own POE. It also has suggestions on how to implement this in a way that's immersive and is consistent with the "soundbite" tone of POEs.

It can be further expanded by allowing us to create and perhaps even save one or more Custom POEs. We should be able to set and adjust classic Defensive Settings AND the additional coaching settings that Zach says make up a POE, similar to how adjusting Quick D Settings in current-gen resulted in "custom" defensive settings:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2045689738

I believe Zach may have read these already, but either way, appreciate you forwarding it to the guys!

Here are a couple of additional responses to Zach:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2045695356
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2045695360

It's also amusing that Zach's cousin's profile now appears to be "banned". :P

[Sundown]

Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

If the main concern is the play tight/deny feature, then couldn't there be a compromise rather than stripping out the whole system? Couldn't we keep the PnR settings (over/under, and hard/soft hedge and double/switch)? Or perhaps there could be a "defensive style" switch: "simulation" to set all your matchups manually or "quick" to use the PoE system. Perhaps with the sag/tight/deny setting, maybe you reintroduce it with "help off of" and "don't help off of" as the options, which simply makes it so the defender doesn't drift to help as much;

I still want classic defensive settings-- because it's simulation to be able to scheme and tinker-- but the addition of help/don't help off of settings would be spectacular. It seems so simple, obvious, and powerful I'm suprised I haven't seen it suggested.