Did We Get Bamboozled?

[franzis]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

sales numbers and vc sold will tell if 2k was right with ng approach

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

I agree, you can't criticize 2K's approach. They're always pushing forward.

However you can criticize the direction they're taking and also they need to set realistic goals for their product in a one year development cycle.

They also will have to quit with false advertisement (Hello Stats INC). They're losing the consumer's trust with that crap.

That's cool. I just wanted to comment on the "I can't believe they took this approach/all we wanted was [something simple]" view.

As far as falsely advertising something, I look at it from the standpoint that I don't think 2K are idiots. They had nothing to gain from purposely promoting a feature they didn't intend to implement. I remember when they said they'd be able to do live updates of player features (updating how they looked) during the season, people were hugely disappointed when that didn't turn out to be the case. Then they had no incentive to lie, given there was no competition. I think it was something they felt they could implement then for whatever reason they couldn't. I think similarly here, although I guess an argument could be made that they purposely misled people just because NBA Live was releasing a title this year. I think there's not much to be gained by purposely misleading people about something.

EDIT: In other words, not advertise something unless they're positive it can be implemented.

[VDusen04]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

I agree, you can't criticize 2K's approach. They're always pushing forward.

However you can criticize the direction they're taking and also they need to set realistic goals for their product in a one year development cycle.

They also will have to quit with false advertisement (Hello Stats INC). They're losing the consumer's trust with that crap.

I believe you are correct. There were a litany of folks (myself included) who were pushing for change to a generally ignored Association mode, but the changes suggested or reasonably stated were nothing like what we saw in NBA 2K14. Many asked for realistic improvements like a return of the D-League, more sensible trade logic, or teams wearing their proper jerseys on the correct nights. Instead, we got the opportunity to buy the ability to edit rotations, the removed ability to control all teams, and an overall forced experience.

So in that regard, you're right, the direction seems to be a real problem here. I'm surprised it seems to have been interpreted by some that gamers were simply clamoring for any change possible, for better or worse. I believe we'd be hard-pressed to find a post in our huge Association Wishlists here that requested more virtual currency integration. Yet, that seems to have been the primary focus of the mode's alteration.

I think there's not much to be gained by purposely misleading people about something.

On the contrary, I believe there's a ton to be gained by purposely misleading people about something. I do not think 2K lied about a lot this year, but I do believe they mislead a fair amount of folks through a lack of transparency. And again, I suppose the debate would become about whether that lack of transparency is good for business or bad for business. It seems to have done its job, as many folks purchased the game unaware of the multitude of problems that exist.

That said, perhaps I took your comment out of context and you're saying there was nothing to be gained for misleading consumers by specifically stating the game had a feature it ends up not (ex: the aforementioned art updates a few years ago). As I re-read, that point has become more clear. I think you're right, it'd make little sense for 2K to state something like, "We update faces everyday!" unless they truly thought they were going to have that ability.

I suppose I was speaking more in regards to the whole general idea of misleading.

[seanbarkley]

Did We Get Bamboozled?

That's cool. I just wanted to comment on the "I can't believe they took this approach/all we wanted was [something simple]" view.

As far as falsely advertising something, I look at it from the standpoint that I don't think 2K are idiots. They had nothing to gain from purposely promoting a feature they didn't intend to implement. I remember when they said they'd be able to do live updates of player features (updating how they looked) during the season, people were hugely disappointed when that didn't turn out to be the case. Then they had no incentive to lie, given there was no competition. I think it was something they felt they could implement then for whatever reason they couldn't. I think similarly here, although I guess an argument could be made that they purposely misled people just because NBA Live was releasing a title this year. I think there's not much to be gained by purposely misleading people about something.

EDIT: In other words, not advertise something unless they're positive it can be implemented.

Yep, I remember that too, and now what we get in next gen is that CAPs added are just copies from existing players.

It's somehow praiseworthy the way you defend everything 2K does, but some stuff (a lot in NG) is simply indefensible. Other videogame franchises have gone into pieces because of mistakes, take bad directions and make bad decisions. It has happened with dozens of franchises and not for that they are all stupid.

[Vni]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

That's cool. I just wanted to comment on the "I can't believe they took this approach/all we wanted was [something simple]" view.

As far as falsely advertising something, I look at it from the standpoint that I don't think 2K are idiots. They had nothing to gain from purposely promoting a feature they didn't intend to implement. I remember when they said they'd be able to do live updates of player features (updating how they looked) during the season, people were hugely disappointed when that didn't turn out to be the case. Then they had no incentive to lie, given there was no competition. I think it was something they felt they could implement then for whatever reason they couldn't. I think similarly here, although I guess an argument could be made that they purposely misled people just because NBA Live was releasing a title this year. I think there's not much to be gained by purposely misleading people about something.

EDIT: In other words, not advertise something unless they're positive it can be implemented.

They still could publicly aknowledge something went wrong with any given feature that end up not working as advertised. Consumer appreciates honnesty. But they don't do that.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

On the contrary, I believe there's a ton to be gained by purposely misleading people about something. I do not think 2K lied about a lot this year, but I do believe they mislead a fair amount of folks through a lack of transparency. And again, I suppose the debate would become about whether that lack of transparency is good for business or bad for business. It seems to have done its job, as many folks purchased the game unaware of the multitude of problems that exist.

That said, perhaps I took your comment out of context and you're saying there was nothing to be gained for misleading consumers by specifically stating the game had a feature it ends up not (ex: the aforementioned art updates a few years ago). As I re-read, that point has become more clear. I think you're right, it'd make little sense for 2K to state something like, "We update faces everyday!" unless they truly thought they were going to have that ability.

I suppose I was speaking more in regards to the whole general idea of misleading.

Yes, I was essentially saying it doesn't make sense for them to purposely lie about something - there's just nothing to be gained from it.

It really doesn't make sense from the transparency issue either imo. To my knowledge, you still haven't purchased either the last gen version of the game or the next gen version of the game. Let's say 2K was completely transparent and said "We're looking to go away from making a realistic simulation game and cater to casual fans so we can make more money" blah blah blah. That wouldn't have made you more likely to purchase either game, despite them being transparent.

The only thing you're going to be happy with is them telling you what you want to hear - and even then, you still may not purchase the title if the game isn't what you want it to be.

[seanbarkley]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

They still could publicly aknowledge something went wrong with any given feature that end up not working as advertised. Consumer appreciates honnesty. But they don't do that.

Exactly. It's kind of laughable how LD2K and Ronnie retweet everyday 2-3 times a day people praising the game (I guess there're no more) while they the game is full of bugs, mistakes, bad implementations and forums here are boiling.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Honestly, I'm becoming convinced that it's impossible to fix trade logic. I can't think of a single basketball game that hasn't had that complaint.

The truth is though, real life NBA trade logic is broken. The Minnesota Timberwolves were drafting point guards every year at one point in time, the Lakers fleece people out of players as a hobby, Isaiah Thomas practically single handedly put the Bulls back in the playoffs post Jordan with all the stupid trades he made with the Knicks. How exactly do you make it possible to replicate those bad moves that do happen in real life without opening the door for certain things to happen that shouldn't realistically happen?

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Yep, I remember that too, and now what we get in next gen is that CAPs added are just copies from existing players.

It's somehow praiseworthy the way you defend everything 2K does, but some stuff (a lot in NG) is simply indefensible. Other videogame franchises have gone into pieces because of mistakes, take bad directions and make bad decisions. It has happened with dozens of franchises and not for that they are all stupid.

Dozens of franchises didn't take their approach. Again, I'm not looking at next gen 2K14 in a vacuum and ignoring they also did a "full" release of NBA2K14 on the last/current gen consoles. Personally even when they were saying the current gen and next gen versions of the game were going to be different experiences (I forget their exact wording) I still believed the next gen game would mostly be a port. No way did I think of a single developer being able to do two full disparate game releases within a few months of each other.

Some of you can choose to try to run them into the ground for a launch game. Which most acknowledge delivered on the gameplay front, which used to be the most important facet of a videogame for many. As I've said many times, this is their first year attempt at something - imo they deserve the benefit of the doubt given what they've delivered historically. If some of you choose to not look at it that way, that's your prerogative. I'm not blindly "defending everything 2K does" - I just choose to add perspective to the circumstances.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Exactly. It's kind of laughable how LD2K and Ronnie retweet everyday 2-3 times a day people praising the game (I guess there're no more) while they the game is full of bugs, mistakes, bad implementations and forums here are boiling.

How is it laughable? It's their job. While there are many things wrong with the game, I don't think it's a situation where everyone hates the game, feels it's an abomination, etc. as some of you apparently do. Most people buy videogames to actually play them - and in that regard it's hard to deny they weren't successful at implementing the gameplay. I understand the frustrations their restrictions and limitations 2K has brought to some of you, but some of you seem completely unwilling to give them a chance to rectify them. Geez, we haven't even gotten past the first two months, let alone into year two of the title.

[da ThRONe]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

How is it laughable? It's their job. While there are many things wrong with the game, I don't think it's a situation where everyone hates the game, feels it's an abomination, etc. as some of you apparently do. Most people buy videogames to actually play them - and in that regard it's hard to deny they weren't successful at implementing the gameplay. I understand the frustrations their restrictions and limitations 2K has brought to some of you, but some of you seem completely unwilling to give them a chance to rectify them. Geez, we haven't even gotten past the first two months, let alone into year two of the title.

It's this "bury our heads in the sand on the bad things" and "only acknowledge the positive" attitude I think people are angry with. Fans/costumers have legit issues with this product and those fans/costumers should feel like they are being addressed. So yes while hyping this game is indeed their jobs, public relations is also a part of that job. If over at 2K they don't get together and collect all the complaints and address the costumers that would be a great disservice to the people that not only have brought this game but those repeat costumers that buy 2K every year.

[jayman504]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

It's this "bury our heads in the sand on the bad things" and "only acknowledge the positive" attitude I think people are angry with. Fans/costumers have legit issues with this product and those fans/costumers should feel like they are being addressed. So yes while hyping this game is indeed their jobs, public relations is also a part of that job. If over at 2K they don't get together and collect all the complaints and address the costumers that would be a great disservice to the people that not only have brought this game but those repeat costumers that buy 2K every year.

Well put....this is what I think most of us are waiting for, and some type of resolution to solve these issues via a patch or something

[VDusen04]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

Yes, I was essentially saying it doesn't make sense for them to purposely lie about something - there's just nothing to be gained from it.

It really doesn't make sense from the transparency issue either imo. To my knowledge, you still haven't purchased either the last gen version of the game or the next gen version of the game. Let's say 2K was completely transparent and said "We're looking to go away from making a realistic simulation game and cater to casual fans so we can make more money" blah blah blah. That wouldn't have made you more likely to purchase either game, despite them being transparent.

The only thing you're going to be happy with is them telling you what you want to hear - and even then, you still may not purchase the title if the game isn't what you want it to be.

Perhaps I lucked out a little bit this year. As I mentioned on the first page of this thread, on the heels of my 2K13 experience (where the VC madness & auto-saving really began to ramp up) I came into 2K14's season more skeptical than at any other point in my 2K playing history.

With such skepticism in tow, I think it was a little easier for me to wade through the thick mess of promotion and employee testimonials in order to get an idea of what the new products may have in store. I happened to notice that a lot of key questions were being strangely ignored or deferred. And even then, my choice to buy or not buy the product was still quite a bit of a guessing game.

If 2K were transparent and stated what you suggested ("We're looking to go away from making a realistic simulation game and cater to casual fans so we can make more money"), you're right, that wouldn't have made me more likely to buy the game. But I surely would have appreciated their willingness to be forthright about their product, thus allowing us all to make educated consumer decisions.

I think that's the essence of the debate here. Was 2K straight forward regarding what their games would and would not contain? Or is it possible they intentionally withheld very important details that could have swayed consumer decisions? If the latter were true, is it the right move? Perhaps it led to more purchases this year, but will such bamboozling lead to reduced consumer confidence in future iterations (as it did for me spanning from 2K13 to 2K14)?

[Gosens6]

Did We Get Bamboozled?

Perhaps I lucked out a little bit this year. As I mentioned on the first page of this thread, on the heels of my 2K13 experience (where the VC madness & auto-saving really began to ramp up) I came into 2K14's season more skeptical than at any other point in my 2K playing history.



With such skepticism in tow, I think it was a little easier for me to wade through the thick mess of promotion and employee testimonials in order to get an idea of what the new products may have in store. I happened to notice that a lot of key questions were being strangely ignored or deferred. And even then, my choice to buy or not buy the product was still quite a bit of a guessing game.



If 2K were transparent and stated what you suggested ("We're looking to go away from making a realistic simulation game and cater to casual fans so we can make more money"), you're right, that wouldn't have made me more likely to buy the game. But I surely would have appreciated their willingness to be forthright about their product, thus allowing us all to make educated consumer decisions.



I think that's the essence of the debate here. Was 2K straight forward regarding what their games would and would not contain? Or is it possible they intentionally withheld very important details that could have swayed consumer decisions? If the latter were true, is it the right move? Perhaps it led to more purchases this year, but will such bamboozling lead to reduced consumer confidence in future iterations (as it did for me spanning from 2K13 to 2K14)?

Excellent post, this was the exact reason for me making this thread. They withheld info, they weren't very forthcoming with what wasn't in the game, they didn't tell us about the always online crap, coupled with taking out any customization options, and having game breaking bugs in the only two modes we can really play.

They clearly purposely withheld this info so people would buy the game. Everyone knows that if they came out and said all this stuff was missing, most of the hardcore fan base would not have bought it, I know I wouldn't have.

They didn't tell us about VC being needed for everything, and that's the biggest slap in the face of them all. 2K is very sneaky when it comes to marketing, they should be telling the consumer everything about the game, not trying to hide their faults. Especially when they made the conscious decision to introduce said faults into the game.

To me, this next get launch is a complete fail.


Sent from the Dungeon Of Doom using Tapatalk

[King_B_Mack]

Re: Did We Get Bamboozled?

I think the biggest issue I have with this whole discussion and narrative is pretending like this is something new or as if what happened was some big evil secret to screw you over. Everyone keeps talking about transparency and 2K needing to come out and say "this or that" wasn't in the game but that's holding 2K to a standard that no one else is held to. No game tells you any and everything that has or hasn't been included in the final product. For example, THQ and their WWE series. A few years back they included a story creator, they trumpeted all the good about it, but they didn't tell you that (in the first iteration of it) you would only be able to use a created star in the story mode for 10 scenes. That's ridiculous. 2K's shoe creator, they didn't tell us that you could only make 50 shoes when they announced that mode. Hell they didn't even tell us that they'd upped the number apparently for NG.

I'm also willing to bet that some of the bugs were not as prevalent as they are now that the game is out in the wild. To actually suggest that they knew that MyGM and MyCareer would have the game crashing bugs that they have and promoted the hell out of those two modes specifically and released them anyway just to make money is going overboard in my view. They may as well drop the NBA license now. Exactly how the hell do you think you're going to purposely not say anything about this happening beforehand, purposely market that mode which will draw even more attention to those specific broken modes and then think you're going to come back looking for money from these same people the following year, for the same product? That's completely ridiculous. I understand being frustrated with this launch, but accusations like that are insane.