Making 'playing tight' realistic

[2_headedmonster]

The problem with the play tight setting is that its overpowered and always has been. There is really no reason for a person to pick their poison and strategize when they can simply choose to play tight on everyone or "deny perimeter" ( or whatever that poe is called) and still be able to bump and wrestle people off of driving lanes and away from screens.

When you watch NBA games, on-ball defense is a game of taking away angles. Defenders are usually an arms length or more away, allowing time to react to the offensive player in an effort to make the path to the basket as wide as possible. Typically anything close to resembling what happens on nba2k and the defender is in the dust or the ref is blowing the whistle on a blocking foul.

But there are those few moments through out a game where a team will "lockdown". In an effort to disrupt an offense or spark a run they play much closer than usual, deny harder and generally exert more effort than they normally would for a spurt. Now of course elite defensive teams do it better, and can sustain this effort longer, but "playing tight" as a team does happen, and can be realistic.

The key to making anything realistic is conveying benefits and the consequences. That said, the consequences for playing tight individually or as a team should be a higher likelihood of blocking, hand-checking and off-ball fouls as well as a quicker loss of stamina. These, as they do in the NBA would keep the option from being abused.

Defensive Chemistry

Defensive chemistry is an idea I came up with to govern how well a team executes whatever scheme it employs. It drains throughout the game (a percentage is recovered through timeouts) and varies dynamically based on the line up on court and their stamina.

Example:

A line up of Rose, Butler, Deng, Boozer and Noah would have a defensive chemistry rating of 87.

Meanwhile a line up of Rose, Butler, Deng, Gibson and Noah would have a defensive chemistry of 93

In my perfect world where this rating exists, 'defensive anchors' and coaches also play a part in the rating as well as how fast it drains.

Now that the concept has been explained, a teams defensive chemistry would determine how big of a stamina drain playing tight would be. Good defenders would be able to slightly offset the stamina hit while weaker defenders would get gassed, and commit more fouls attempting to play out of character.

Welp that's my drawn out explanation of how id reform the "play tight" mechanic. Was it good? bad? got an alternative? What's your take?

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

You lost me on your premise. Ive played every NBA 2k basketball game and I never considered Play tight to be overpowered onball or off.


My typical defensive settings were auto for anything but great shooters who cant dribble onball.

Tight was for average medium range shooters who didnt shoot the three well- offball

Deny for decent to good and great three point shooters offball

Auto for poor shooters

I didnt adjust pick and roll settings until CG 2k14 when I turned off all hedging to use the 'Freeze' defense in pick and rolls. I rarely doubled players on the drive but I did on occasions.

So my take is that it was never overpowered thus it never needed to be removed or changed. I used Auto onball and deny offball more than I did used tight so I cant go along with this theory that it was overpowered in any way.

I will say that Sag Off defense was underpowered which is why I didnt use it on guys like Deandre Jordan. That is whole other story.

[keshunleon]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

Play tight was good and I don't think over powered.

If On Ball Defense is up so high you can't drive around anybody.

When a defender is playing tight you can beat him off the dribble at times plus back door cuts are there.

I play tight for players like Novak, Korver, Casspi, etc... Great shooter with little to no ball handling skills.
These players I want to get open shots. Players like Tony Allen, Brewer, Wallace, etc... I sag off to let them shoot.

[jaateloauto]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

Playing tight worked as intended. If you play tight you can get easily beat on cuts and on pick & roll / plays that require help defense. A non-issue if I've ever seen one.

[2_headedmonster]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

There are many others who share the opinion that the play tight setting is a overpowered, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. The on-ball defense allows too much contact in general compared to the real nba, but the feed back is good. Gives me an good idea on how many people share my point of view.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

I had a idea about this before.

• Play tight needs to have stamina debits if played for long durations. Without a fatigue impact it gets unrealistic
• Playing tight on the perimeter should be a risk reward that should make you susceptible to off ball cuts not just cutter plays but the awareness of the players to cut off ball when played tight on the perimeter. This is the real reason you very rarely see a team go to play tight everywhere except during brief stretches
• It should be a risk reward of blocking fouls, and blow bys, right now when you play tight I see too many animations are "won" by the offense for playing good d. They need to re-do physics so it matters to the dribbler as the offensive player just gets away with so much unrealistic things.
• Lastly please add or re-do the animations for dribbling when tight defense is played. The problem is there is not enough animations for tight defense, or they just decided to make the offense "win" the animation so the defense must be pushed back or warped to allow the offense to perform the dribble move. They improved what they could I guess in the latest patch but they need to start over IMO.
• The court ratio to size of the players is just not right. Players are just too big and it effects playing tight.

[2_headedmonster]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

We clearly were thinking along the same lines. But I don't believe the player to court ratio is off. I believe the strides, foot planting, spacing and close shot animations and animation selection are to blame.

What I mean by close shot animations and animation selection are to blame is that often times the paint is shrunken by animations that misrepresent the dimensions of the court. Some cover too much ground without a dribble, ignore the angle the ball handler is taking and collectively that adds up.

also there are many instances where an animation will seemingly convey more momentum than a player actually had.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

We clearly were thinking along the same lines. But I don't believe the player to court ratio is off. I believe the strides, foot planting, spacing and close shot animations and animation selection are to blame.

What I mean by close shot animations and animation selection are to blame is that often times the paint is shrunken by animations without a dribble, ignore the angle the ball handler is taking and collectively that adds up.

also there are many instances where an animation will seemingly convey more momentum than a player actually had.

I agree about the animations but I still think the players are too big for the court, it isn't as bad as it has been but they have the scale still too big just scale it down a little I am nick picking but it is a little big. Live has the court size to players closer than 2k.

I still think they need to redo how tig defense is impacted by dribbling which is the worst offender of how you actually try to play tight defense. I hate to say it but they have to improve live ball further

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Making 'playing tight' realistic

I had a idea about this before.

• Play tight needs to have stamina debits if played for long durations. Without a fatigue impact it gets unrealistic
• Playing tight on the perimeter should be a risk reward that should make you susceptible to off ball cuts not just cutter plays but the awareness of the players to cut off ball when played tight on the perimeter. This is the real reason you very rarely see a team go to play tight everywhere except during brief stretches
• It should be a risk reward of blocking fouls, and blow bys, right now when you play tight I see too many animations are "won" by the offense for playing good d. They need to re-do physics so it matters to the dribbler as the offensive player just gets away with so much unrealistic things.
• Lastly please add or re-do the animations for dribbling when tight defense is played. The problem is there is not enough animations for tight defense, or they just decided to make the offense "win" the animation so the defense must be pushed back or warped to allow the offense to perform the dribble move. They improved what they could I guess in the latest patch but they need to start over IMO.
• The court ratio to size of the players is just not right. Players are just too big and it effects playing tight.

I dont wholly disagree with any of that but some it deserves some context because they are connected to other flaws.

Play tight needs to have stamina debits if played for long durations. Without a fatigue impact it gets unrealistic

Standing next to someone in a tighter relation should not drain your stamina. Now if we are talking on ball defense I'm not a fan of awarding the offense by making guarding isos tiring. People run around taking advantage of the sluggish defensive stance enough. Running back on defense, chasing shooters off screens and using intense defense drains stamina. Do we really need more?

Playing tight on the perimeter should be a risk reward that should make you susceptible to off ball cuts not just cutter plays but the awareness of the players to cut off ball when played tight on the perimeter. This is the real reason you very rarely see a team go to play tight everywhere except during brief stretches

The issue here is more related to how poorly sag off defense defends cuts into the paint, deep position etc. The only thing sag off defense seems to do well is cut off drives from the weakside or keep bigs in the paint except for in pick and rolls. This isnt NBA 2k6 or 9 but lets be real the defense is not overpowered at least not in relation to the offense. The perimeter shot blocking would be overpowered if stars and PGs werent overrated and the defensive stance wasnt slow and slower with lag.

It should be a risk reward of blocking fouls, and blow bys, right now when you play tight I see too many animations are "won" by the offense for playing good d. They need to re-do physics so it matters to the dribbler as the offensive player just gets away with so much unrealistic things.

I generally agree but apply that with an improved defensive stance, and better athletic ratings. Almost all guards and stars have overrated speed and quickness while the defensive stance is a step slow but still changes directions slow like its obeying higher speed momentum.

Another thing that nobody talks about but its true as five senses is big men are terrible in perimeter defense. The stance is already slow. Mix in some poor ratings and they are really terrible until the CPU is controlling them. The CPU is programed to treat all stances the same thus nobody will agree that 4s and 5s are gimped in onball defense when the CPU handles them so much better than people. I'm not saying I cant beat mismatches. I can, however I beat them in spite of the CPU having an advantage. That leads to another problem. To make the game more of a challenge ie not allowing people to play offball defense your CPU teammates from allstar level on up are handicapped.

I'm not saying this is a bad design. Its just overdone to the point where I have to constantly shift off ball to make up for the lack of defensive settings then go back to the ball to make up for how terrible the CPU is on the ball. This is all while guarding juiced up guards using a sluggish stance. Simply put defense is less fun. The AI, pass defense animations, charge/block calls are improved but the lack of control in that AI with the removal of settings and the way the stance has regressed makes defense a less fun on the PS 4 and Xbox One.

Lastly please add or re-do the animations for dribbling when tight defense is played. The problem is there is not enough animations for tight defense, or they just decided to make the offense "win" the animation so the defense must be pushed back or warped to allow the offense to perform the dribble move. They improved what they could I guess in the latest patch but they need to start over IMO.

The arent enough neutral animations. A lot of this comes from the lack of Sag Off AI. Its improved but without defensive settings we have no control of it so its difficult to gauge how it has improved.