Signature Skills!?!

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  • kwabalicious
    Pro
    • Aug 2009
    • 639

    #16
    Re: Signature Skills!?!

    Originally posted by 19LloydBanks82
    Rondo has never been a good on ball defender? Lol you have a Celtics logo as your image but have you ever seen Rondo play? There is a reason Doc Rivers put Rondo on LeBron multiple times (Even in game 2 in 2012 when LeBron had the ball for the last shot). He is one of the best on ball defenders in the game (when healthy).
    We can agree to disagree, as I don't want to start an off topic argument, but as someone who never misses a Celtics game, I can say that Rondo doesn't guard PGs very well. Rondo is best playing the passing lanes and being the quarterback of the defense, roaming around and staying in help. That is why the Bradley-Rondo backcourt duo is so deadly. Rondo gets beaten by his man all the time gambling for the ball; it's just his nature. He's not up there with guys like Chris Paul.

    Comment

    • 19LloydBanks82
      Banned
      • Aug 2013
      • 610

      #17
      Re: Signature Skills!?!

      Originally posted by kwabalicious
      We can agree to disagree, as I don't want to start an off topic argument, but as someone who never misses a Celtics game, I can say that Rondo doesn't guard PGs very well. Rondo is best playing the passing lanes and being the quarterback of the defense, roaming around and staying in help. That is why the Bradley-Rondo backcourt duo is so deadly. Rondo gets beaten by his man all the time gambling for the ball; it's just his nature. He's not up there with guys like Chris Paul.
      No, he just got lazy, it started last year with Bradley, Rondo can and now has to concentrate on the offensive end. He didn't do it until last year, before that he was easily a better on ball defender than CP3, when healthy he is easily still as good.

      Comment

      • Metapod
        Rookie
        • Jul 2013
        • 116

        #18
        Re: Signature Skills!?!

        Originally posted by kwabalicious
        Rondo has never really been a good on ball defender. Usually likes to play the passing lanes and go for the ball a lot.

        Beverly, Conley, Bradley are guys I might take defending the PG position over Paul, but Paul has great anticipatory skills and is surely a top five, if not, top two or three defender at his position. I guess another question you could ask is how selective the signature skill should be? Maybe CP3 is not as good a defender as Bradley, TA, or Paul George, but he is still a damn good defender.

        Before we start worrying about guys like Chris Paul, we need to get Lockdown Defender taken away from guys like Danny Green.
        Why is there never any love for westbrook?
        Thunder fan
        Titan fan

        Comment

        • ourpurpose
          Rookie
          • Jul 2010
          • 72

          #19
          Re: Signature Skills!?!

          I love nothing more than the casual fan and their own personal understanding of defense. The first sign of a casual fan, is claiming anyone is actually a "lockdown" defender. The second sign of a casual is listing steals or blocks as reasoning for great individual defense. People need to understand that basketball is a team game. Defense is much deeper than one on one that media tries to push. The point guard position is nearly impossible to defend in today's game. You have a league without hand checking and pnr heavy offenses. This is why team defense is imperative.

          Looking at a few players individually:

          -Chris Paul is a smart defender who understands defensive positioning as well as any other point in the league. Things to consider... Chris has had the luxury of playing with two of the more athletic defensive minded centers. Tyson provided rim protection, but more importantly he understands rotations extremely well. DJ is still a work in progress. He is a high energy guy whose numbers improved with his increased minutes. I am not knocking Chris for this, just suggesting that many factors need to considered. Chris is definitely one of the better defenders in the league.

          -This provides the perfect opportunity to transition to DJ. I occasionally hear from the ESPN type crowd remarks about DJ and his great D. This is partially true. DJ provides great rebounding, energy, rim protection, and is showing signs of improving his rotations. However, he is still a poor one on one post defender. Luckily for him, the league is fairly weak in back to the basket scorers.

          -LeBron is a polarizing figure and no matter what you say someone will always be offended. I think too many people overvalue LeBron's perimeter defense. This too, is a result of the ESPN crowd. Defense can be tough to prove or disprove because there isn't one specific stat that identifies a given players success. For instance, last year (most recent full season) the Synergy statistics show Wade defending four major perimeter areas better (isolation, closing on spot up, guarding ball handler, & screens). In fact, looking at this season, Durant has more win shares and has a better defensive rating. Just stats right? Sure these stats don't concede everything and do in fact leave something to be desired, especially with LeBron. LeBron is the catalyst of the Heat defense. His presence affords versatility that no other team can compete with. To top that off, LeBron can defend the 1-4 well and some of the none scoring threat 5's. With all of this being said, LeBron's rotations are top notch and unparallelled imo. The Heat as a unit, play well together an impose their will on opponents. Frankly, this wouldn't be possible without LeBron. Overall, Lebron is a great defender overall, but a lockdown defender... He is not!

          Comment

          • ourpurpose
            Rookie
            • Jul 2010
            • 72

            #20
            Re: Signature Skills!?!

            Originally posted by 19LloydBanks82
            No, he just got lazy, it started last year with Bradley, Rondo can and now has to concentrate on the offensive end. He didn't do it until last year, before that he was easily a better on ball defender than CP3, when healthy he is easily still as good.
            Rondo, like many of the players who are burdened with carrying an offense finds himself picking and choosing when to play D. Rondo moves as well laterally as nearly anyone in the league and this shows when defending the ball. He does have a tendency to gamble, play screens lazily, or occasionally "fall" asleep on the floor (so does Paul George). However, the NBA is a game often won in the final 5 minutes and he is more than capable of showing how great he can be when it matters.

            Comment

            • 19LloydBanks82
              Banned
              • Aug 2013
              • 610

              #21
              Re: Signature Skills!?!

              Originally posted by ourpurpose
              I love nothing more than the casual fan and their own personal understanding of defense. The first sign of a casual fan, is claiming anyone is actually a "lockdown" defender. The second sign of a casual is listing steals or blocks as reasoning for great individual defense. People need to understand that basketball is a team game. Defense is much deeper than one on one that media tries to push. The point guard position is nearly impossible to defend in today's game. You have a league without hand checking and pnr heavy offenses. This is why team defense is imperative.

              Looking at a few players individually:

              -Chris Paul is a smart defender who understands defensive positioning as well as any other point in the league. Things to consider... Chris has had the luxury of playing with two of the more athletic defensive minded centers. Tyson provided rim protection, but more importantly he understands rotations extremely well. DJ is still a work in progress. He is a high energy guy whose numbers improved with his increased minutes. I am not knocking Chris for this, just suggesting that many factors need to considered. Chris is definitely one of the better defenders in the league.

              -This provides the perfect opportunity to transition to DJ. I occasionally hear from the ESPN type crowd remarks about DJ and his great D. This is partially true. DJ provides great rebounding, energy, rim protection, and is showing signs of improving his rotations. However, he is still a poor one on one post defender. Luckily for him, the league is fairly weak in back to the basket scorers.

              -LeBron is a polarizing figure and no matter what you say someone will always be offended. I think too many people overvalue LeBron's perimeter defense. This too, is a result of the ESPN crowd. Defense can be tough to prove or disprove because there isn't one specific stat that identifies a given players success. For instance, last year (most recent full season) the Synergy statistics show Wade defending four major perimeter areas better (isolation, closing on spot up, guarding ball handler, & screens). In fact, looking at this season, Durant has more win shares and has a better defensive rating. Just stats right? Sure these stats don't concede everything and do in fact leave something to be desired, especially with LeBron. LeBron is the catalyst of the Heat defense. His presence affords versatility that no other team can compete with. To top that off, LeBron can defend the 1-4 well and some of the none scoring threat 5's. With all of this being said, LeBron's rotations are top notch and unparallelled imo. The Heat as a unit, play well together an impose their will on opponents. Frankly, this wouldn't be possible without LeBron. Overall, Lebron is a great defender overall, but a lockdown defender... He is not!
              Exactly what i'm saying. People see players averaging a lot of steals and blocks and immediately think they're great defenders. Monta Ellis is an awful defender yet he was in the top 5 in steals last season and there are a lot of examples for shotblockers, too. There is a lot more to defense than steals and blocks.

              Comment

              • kwabalicious
                Pro
                • Aug 2009
                • 639

                #22
                Re: Signature Skills!?!

                Originally posted by ourpurpose
                I love nothing more than the casual fan and their own personal understanding of defense. The first sign of a casual fan, is claiming anyone is actually a "lockdown" defender. The second sign of a casual is listing steals or blocks as reasoning for great individual defense. People need to understand that basketball is a team game. Defense is much deeper than one on one that media tries to push. The point guard position is nearly impossible to defend in today's game. You have a league without hand checking and pnr heavy offenses. This is why team defense is imperative.

                Looking at a few players individually:

                -Chris Paul is a smart defender who understands defensive positioning as well as any other point in the league. Things to consider... Chris has had the luxury of playing with two of the more athletic defensive minded centers. Tyson provided rim protection, but more importantly he understands rotations extremely well. DJ is still a work in progress. He is a high energy guy whose numbers improved with his increased minutes. I am not knocking Chris for this, just suggesting that many factors need to considered. Chris is definitely one of the better defenders in the league.

                -This provides the perfect opportunity to transition to DJ. I occasionally hear from the ESPN type crowd remarks about DJ and his great D. This is partially true. DJ provides great rebounding, energy, rim protection, and is showing signs of improving his rotations. However, he is still a poor one on one post defender. Luckily for him, the league is fairly weak in back to the basket scorers.

                -LeBron is a polarizing figure and no matter what you say someone will always be offended. I think too many people overvalue LeBron's perimeter defense. This too, is a result of the ESPN crowd. Defense can be tough to prove or disprove because there isn't one specific stat that identifies a given players success. For instance, last year (most recent full season) the Synergy statistics show Wade defending four major perimeter areas better (isolation, closing on spot up, guarding ball handler, & screens). In fact, looking at this season, Durant has more win shares and has a better defensive rating. Just stats right? Sure these stats don't concede everything and do in fact leave something to be desired, especially with LeBron. LeBron is the catalyst of the Heat defense. His presence affords versatility that no other team can compete with. To top that off, LeBron can defend the 1-4 well and some of the none scoring threat 5's. With all of this being said, LeBron's rotations are top notch and unparallelled imo. The Heat as a unit, play well together an impose their will on opponents. Frankly, this wouldn't be possible without LeBron. Overall, Lebron is a great defender overall, but a lockdown defender... He is not!
                Has anyone used steals and blocks to classify a great defender? Has anyone even called Chris Paul a true "lockdown defender" in the NBA? No, it is an accessory trait in a video game that is used to make a player perform better. That is all. So nobody is calling these guys "lockdown defenders" We are just deeming guys like Chris Paul worthy of a video-game trait.

                Steals and Blocks are pretty independent of a player's man to man defensive capability. Sure Chris Paul gets a lot of steals, and sure, he has big men behind him, but that doesn't take away from his anticipatory skills and quick feet. The best thing you can do is watch the games and see for yourself, as I have not cited any stats to back my arguments.

                Rondo racks up a lot of steals, and played in front of KG; is he not a good defender? Beverly plays in front of Howard. Paul George in front of Hibbert. Conley in front of Gasol.

                Comment

                • JA Money14
                  Banned
                  • Mar 2012
                  • 0

                  #23
                  Re: Signature Skills!?!

                  Lol bro, I understand you're thing with rondo and dimer but CP3 is a no brainer lockdown defender to me. Gotta watch that cat go to work and you'll understand

                  Comment

                  • Find_the_Door
                    Nogueira connoisseur
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 4051

                    #24
                    Re: Signature Skills!?!

                    Paul isn't a lock down defender. Lock down defender means he's shuts down someone one on one. Paul is excellent at playing the passing lanes and stealing the ball, but heavily relies on help defense to save his tail. Should have interceptor and MAYBE pick pocket.


                    Anyone that thinks otherwise could would be well served to watch some more basketball themselves.
                    Antonio Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira - UFC Hall of Fame

                    Comment

                    • 19LloydBanks82
                      Banned
                      • Aug 2013
                      • 610

                      #25
                      Re: Signature Skills!?!

                      Originally posted by kwabalicious
                      Has anyone used steals and blocks to classify a great defender? Has anyone even called Chris Paul a true "lockdown defender" in the NBA? No, it is an accessory trait in a video game that is used to make a player perform better. That is all. So nobody is calling these guys "lockdown defenders" We are just deeming guys like Chris Paul worthy of a video-game trait.

                      Steals and Blocks are pretty independent of a player's man to man defensive capability. Sure Chris Paul gets a lot of steals, and sure, he has big men behind him, but that doesn't take away from his anticipatory skills and quick feet. The best thing you can do is watch the games and see for yourself, as I have not cited any stats to back my arguments.

                      Rondo racks up a lot of steals, and played in front of KG; is he not a good defender? Beverly plays in front of Howard. Paul George in front of Hibbert. Conley in front of Gasol.
                      4th comment: "He has led the league in steals numerous times and is always every single year in the top 3 at least." People use that argument all the time.

                      Comment

                      • okc350
                        Rookie
                        • Nov 2013
                        • 123

                        #26
                        Re: Signature Skills!?!

                        I'm baffled that people don't realize that CP3 is a top 3 defensive PG in the NBA. He's right up there with Conley and Rondo(when he puts forth the effort). There's a reason that he's so valuable to the clippers and why he's first team all defense every year.

                        He understands rotations very well and does a great job at staying in front of his man. His only downfall is that he sometimes gambles on the passing lanes which sometimes lets his defender get right by him. IIRC he allows below 0.8 PPP, which would rank him in the top 5 in the league.
                        MyTeam:

                        PG: Russell Westbrook/Stephen Curry/Gary Payton
                        SG: '91 Michael Jordan/Monta Ellis/Diamond Kobe
                        SF: LeBron James/Julius Erving
                        PF: Blake Griffin/'98 Tim Duncan
                        C: Bill Russell/1994-95 Shaq

                        Comment

                        • kwabalicious
                          Pro
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 639

                          #27
                          Re: Signature Skills!?!

                          Fair. I think we can all agree that Paul is a good defender on ball (top 3-8 at his position) unless you don't watch him play. The issue is how selective should the sig skill "lockdown defender be? How many guys are good enough at that end to "neutralize their opponent's signature skills," as that is what lockdown defender does?

                          Comment

                          • JA Money14
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2012
                            • 0

                            #28
                            Re: Signature Skills!?!

                            I don't agree that steals is a factor when it comes to lockdown defender.. Kawhi Leonard, Tony Allen, etc guys that are lockdown defenders done necessarily lead the nba in steals.

                            That being said, playoff Chris Paul is one of the best on ball defenders in the NBA.

                            Comment

                            • ourpurpose
                              Rookie
                              • Jul 2010
                              • 72

                              #29
                              Re: Signature Skills!?!

                              Originally posted by kwabalicious
                              Fair. I think we can all agree that Paul is a good defender on ball (top 3-8 at his position) unless you don't watch him play. The issue is how selective should the sig skill "lockdown defender be? How many guys are good enough at that end to "neutralize their opponent's signature skills," as that is what lockdown defender does?
                              The issue here... There shouldn't be a skill called "lockdown." It doesn't exist now and it hasn't in the past. Basketball is a team game and should be presented in this manor. Lockdown is a term that is irresponsibly thrown around by people who lack the understanding of defense and how it is played. It doesn't help that ESPN perpetuates this fictional attribute/skill. Nearly all of these guys have played with big guys who protect them somehow (PG=Hibbert, Paul=DJ, Leonard=Duncan, Allen=Gasol, etc.).

                              I would have no problem with this trait if it functioned more specifically to the player.

                              Battier: Hardly ever leaves his feet and always keeps a hand up or in the opponents face

                              Bradley: (lacks a big this year) He plays in your face and has exceptional lateral movement (hands on as much as he is allowed)

                              PG: Great lateral movement but gambles and shows lack of interest at times

                              This list could go on and on. You could make it as detailed as possible but that isn't the point. These players should play like they do in real life, not have some trait that doesn't apply to them. They all have their own strengths that should be reflected in their individualistic ways. This skill is a cop out on 2k and too many of you are buying into their lazy way of passing off something that doesn't exist. I expect better this generation...

                              Comment

                              • miggyme1
                                Banned
                                • Oct 2010
                                • 118

                                #30
                                Re: Signature Skills!?!

                                Originally posted by ourpurpose
                                The issue here... There shouldn't be a skill called "lockdown." It doesn't exist now and it hasn't in the past. Basketball is a team game and should be presented in this manor. Lockdown is a term that is irresponsibly thrown around by people who lack the understanding of defense and how it is played. It doesn't help that ESPN perpetuates this fictional attribute/skill. Nearly all of these guys have played with big guys who protect them somehow (PG=Hibbert, Paul=DJ, Leonard=Duncan, Allen=Gasol, etc.).

                                I would have no problem with this trait if it functioned more specifically to the player.

                                Battier: Hardly ever leaves his feet and always keeps a hand up or in the opponents face

                                Bradley: (lacks a big this year) He plays in your face and has exceptional lateral movement (hands on as much as he is allowed)

                                PG: Great lateral movement but gambles and shows lack of interest at times

                                This list could go on and on. You could make it as detailed as possible but that isn't the point. These players should play like they do in real life, not have some trait that doesn't apply to them. They all have their own strengths that should be reflected in their individualistic ways. This skill is a cop out on 2k and too many of you are buying into their lazy way of passing off something that doesn't exist. I expect better this generation...
                                Very insightful post. I agree with u. 2k should create signature playing styles instead of signature skills. I hate how when i play with the rockets dwight will get an offensive rebound and lay it up. Knowing in real life thats either a put back dunk and 1 or a standing dunk and 1 or just a hard flush from under the rim. Cmon 2k

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