Defensive Pick and Roll Button

[ezsmilez]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

why one or the other. id like to have both the ability to take a charge on command and draw one with positioning.

And in response to EZ, with your example of "icing" d rose, the guard would already be aggressively going high on the screen, so tightening up with the big is the only thing left to do to take the jumper away.

I respect your opinion about not wanting a defensive p&r button, just think the charge button does more harm then good. If I already established position in the paint why should I have to push a button also? I'ts all about getting the most realistic simulation of the game we watch on TV. Guys barreling over well positioned defenders, and trying to draw charges in the backcourt is not simulation basketball. If the devs could get rid of that part of the game why wouldn't we as a community be in support of it

[2_headedmonster]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

I respect your opinion about not wanting a defensive p&r button, just think the charge button does more harm then good. If I already established position in the paint why should I have to push a button also? I'ts all about getting the most realistic simulation of the game we watch on TV. Guys barreling over well positioned defenders, and trying to draw charges in the backcourt is notsimulation basketball. If the devs could get rid of that part of the game why wouldn't we as a community be in support of it

its contradictory to advocate more control in the pick and roll defense, while taking defensive control by making drawing a charge automated. Thats like saying people are abusing crossovers, so removing right stick dribbling and replacing it with a crossover button that decides which moves a player can do.

i understand the problem (online, back court abuse) but why not fix the problem vs take control away. for example, making the requirements to get a charge in the back court much more strict would be a better solution.

[ManiacMatt1782]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

It doesn't have to be defensive pick and roll controls. Whay I am saying is a take a charge button is a wasted button. Why do you need a button to set your feet. Getting into position and then not moving should be all thats needed to set your feet. Something else could be put there is all I am saying. But 1st we need 2k to actually program it so charges are charges and blocks are call appropriately when feet are set.

I feel the arguement of taking away control is a weak one. You are contolling it by choosing to stop movimg and hold your ground. The L trigger can be used as the defensive face up that makes you take shorter steps too. A charge button is a waste. We can get something else there for controls that would be much more useful. Which is anything because a charge button isn't a useful control if they were called correctly.

[Coach2K]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

I'm for disabling the take charge button but I am not so sure otherwise.

It's my feeling this option is there already to some degree and that's the double team button during the pick and roll. I don't personally do it but it's seems it's done to me a lot.

I think I'm in the minority here in that I much prefer manual control of the hedger otherwise the hedger is too strong.

The problem here is that a good user in man to man and the system you propose might work fine but how is that abused if zone is employed.

Also I'm not a big fan of defensive scheme completely by settings. Makes every team a defensive powerhouse when they aren't.

[DJ_Solis]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

I really like the idea. I've been wanting a way to better defend the PnR for a while now. Defensive settings are cool too, but for online play it gets tedious to change them every game. Also, I like the ability to change up on the fly.
The only thing I worry about are charges being controlled by the computer. It's not that I don't like the idea but the AI in the game is pretty flawed. I just feel like I would end up getting stuck in animations that would result in charges even when I try to avoid contact. Maybe, just switch the charge command to a different control while tweaking it to make them less successful in the open court.

[Vni]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

I really like the idea. I've been wanting a way to better defend the PnR for a while now. Defensive settings are cool too, but for online play it gets tedious to change them every game. Also, I like the ability to change up on the fly.
The only thing I worry about are charges being controlled by the computer. It's not that I don't like the idea but the AI in the game is pretty flawed. I just feel like I would end up getting stuck in animations that would result in charges even when I try to avoid contact. Maybe, just switch the charge command to a different control while tweaking it to make them less successful in the open court.

I woudn't call 40 seconds to set your team up before a match tedious. Sure it would be better if both players could set their team at the same time in an online game (PES 5 on the PS2 had this feature) but it's not really tedious.

[2_headedmonster]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

It doesn't have to be defensive pick and roll controls. Whay I am saying is a take a charge button is a wasted button. Why do you need a button to set your feet. Getting into position and then not moving should be all thats needed to set your feet. Something else could be put there is all I am saying. But 1st we need 2k to actually program it so charges are charges and blocks are call appropriately when feet are set.

I feel the arguement of taking away control is a weak one. You are contolling it by choosing to stop movimg and hold your ground. The L trigger can be used as the defensive face up that makes you take shorter steps too. A charge button is a waste. We can get something else there for controls that would be much more useful. Which is anything because a charge button isn't a useful control if they were called correctly.

it's not only about having a button to set your feet, but also getting squared up. being squared establishes positioning, allows for more legal leeway when defending and gives you grounds for a charge when trampled over. simply releasing the sticks in the midst of interacting does not, and should not initiate that. there are too many scenarios where the game could misread the play and cause frustration. user imput should always be an option.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

I'm for disabling the take charge button but I am not so sure otherwise.

It's my feeling this option is there already to some degree and that's the double team button during the pick and roll. I don't personally do it but it's seems it's done to me a lot.

I think I'm in the minority here in that I much prefer manual control of the hedger otherwise the hedger is too strong.

The problem here is that a good user in man to man and the system you propose might work fine but how is that abused if zone is employed.

Also I'm not a big fan of defensive scheme completely by settings. Makes every team a defensive powerhouse when they aren't.

Concerning zone, they just need to fix what was wrong with it. The movement and reactions in a zone were too fast that made it a little overpowered and likely to be exploited.

Coach there so much control of how to defend the pick and roll that is missing that teams use that could be implemented. Read that article man They are basically missing defensive schemes that should be in.

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/4/18/5601402/nba-pick-and-roll-defense-playoffs-2014

We have Hedge, Hard hedge, auto, switch, double in current gen, under and over

We should also have :

Double/Blitz: personally I would want both. Blitz is risky because it takes a difficult pass to break hit the roller or it can get stolen but if you do get the pass through the cutter would have an advantage or could swing the pass one more time for an open man. So you should have to do some tricky jump passes to get this or be able to lob it to a cutter.

Zone up: This is what your Pacers do a lot. Teams that don't have a big that is mobile zone up the pick and roll and the big is way under. This pretty much stops the penetration for the most part but can leave open jumpers and 3pt's. So you take away the paint but give up some jumpers if they can shoot. If the big that sets the screen can shoot you are in trouble. This setup basically forced Hibbert off the floor against the Hawks in that series.

Ice: Try to contain the paint by forcing the pick to the baseline you have help over the top

Show:

We should have this. The help defenders actually help out on the rolling man. This makes the pass risky to hit the man cutting

These should all be a coach options how you are defending the pick and roll and it should show you what each feature gets grayed out. Under Auto should be the default coaching option that the team like to run so teams play differently. Call it pick and roll tendency/profile or whatever. You should be penalized for picking the wrong option that doesn't go with your personnel. Basically like calling a bad defense for the play in football. If we get this we will get some chess match thing going on.

Bulls say ICE and they also switch because their bigs Noah and Gibson are good on ball defenders for their position and do it probably better than any other bigs in the league. However you would not try switching with Hibbert or trying to hedge alot with Hibbert or Perkins, and Jefferson because you are at a disadvantage on the perimeter.

[2_headedmonster]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

i agree, and we touched upon it here.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...e-defense.html

[Coach2K]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

Concerning zone, they just need to fix what was wrong with it. The movement and reactions in a zone were too fast that made it a little overpowered and likely to be exploited.

Coach there so much control of how to defend the pick and roll that is missing that teams use that could be implemented. Read that article man They are basically missing defensive schemes that should be in.

http://www.sbnation.com/2014/4/18/5601402/nba-pick-and-roll-defense-playoffs-2014

We have Hedge, Hard hedge, auto, switch, double in current gen, under and over

We should also have :

Double/Blitz: personally I would want both. Blitz is risky because it takes a difficult pass to break hit the roller or it can get stolen but if you do get the pass through the cutter would have an advantage or could swing the pass one more time for an open man. So you should have to do some tricky jump passes to get this or be able to lob it to a cutter.

Zone up: This is what your Pacers do a lot. Teams that don't have a big that is mobile zone up the pick and roll and the big is way under. This pretty much stops the penetration for the most part but can leave open jumpers and 3pt's. So you take away the paint but give up some jumpers if they can shoot. If the big that sets the screen can shoot you are in trouble. This setup basically forced Hibbert off the floor against the Hawks in that series.

Ice: Try to contain the paint by forcing the pick to the baseline you have help over the top

Show:

We should have this. The help defenders actually help out on the rolling man. This makes the pass risky to hit the man cutting

These should all be a coach options how you are defending the pick and roll and it should show you what each feature gets grayed out. Under Auto should be the default coaching option that the team like to run so teams play differently. Call it pick and roll tendency/profile or whatever. You should be penalized for picking the wrong option that doesn't go with your personnel. Basically like calling a bad defense for the play in football. If we get this we will get some chess match thing going on.

Bulls say ICE and they also switch because their bigs Noah and Gibson are good on ball defenders for their position and do it probably better than any other bigs in the league. However you would not try switching with Hibbert or trying to hedge alot with Hibbert or Perkins, and Jefferson because you are at a disadvantage on the perimeter.

My point isn't that we shouldn't have realistic defenses of the pick and roll but that basically with settings you can make any team play awesome defense when it shouldn't happen that way and the settings get abused when applied in zone.

I much prefer as much manual control as possible and you have the ability to control who you want on the court at any time and I think you should consider manual control of the hedger.

One problem with the settings approach is smart players read your settings and play accordingly.

But just because I support as much user control of the actual players during the game as opposed to CPU control doesn't mean I don't support better defense in the game overall.

I'd say a lot of the problem in online play is the abuse of settings and sliders by the players when they were available and that's what I'm not for and my concern here.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

My point isn't that we shouldn't have realistic defenses of the pick and roll but that basically with settings you can make any team play awesome defense when it shouldn't happen that way and the settings get abused when applied in zone.

I much prefer as much manual control as possible and you have the ability to control who you want on the court at any time and I think you should consider manual control of the hedger.

One problem with the settings approach is smart players read your settings and play accordingly.

But just because I support as much user control of the actual players during the game as opposed to CPU control doesn't mean I don't support better defense in the game overall.

I'd say a lot of the problem in online play is the abuse of settings and sliders by the players when they were available and that's what I'm not for and my concern here.

Yeah I figured that was your issue. I have a feeling that 2K is about to throw a little more realism into the effectiveness of zones this year. I don't think they will be that effective this year. Concerning the matchup settings at least in current gen it all comes down to how 2k fixes the effectiveness of the settings.

I think the settings should be like a risk reward gamble especially if you don't know what you are doing. Say presssure too tight all game then you are prone to more fatigue loss, fouls and blow bys. I think the key is getting some realistic agility sliding feet and on ball defense. I also said this last year but they should have on ball pressure, off ball pressure as a separate setting for each player, probably perimeter vs. paint as well. We should be in total control of how our teammates play on defense. However the teammates should make a bad read at times based off their offensive/defensive awareness and probably coaching skill as well as effectiveness of the other team executing against them.

The zone hasn't been done properly with respect to the passing speed and speed that the defense moves in any game yet. They have been making these small increments each year but I think this is the year where it will be noticeable to the point people would only play zone for a few possesions if that.

[ezsmilez]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

In the crew livestream the other day, it looked like they changed the player size in relation to the court. It was a quick pic of a 2k15 crew match on a last gen console. If that made it's way to current gen it would help with better spacing, and make it harder for defenders to close out on shooters. If I wasn't at work I'd look for the pic.

[ManiacMatt1782]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

it's not only about having a button to set your feet, but also getting squared up. being squared establishes positioning, allows for more legal leeway when defending and gives you grounds for a charge when trampled over. simply releasing the sticks in the midst of interacting does not, and should not initiate that. there are too many scenarios where the game could misread the play and cause frustration. user imput should always be an option.

Holding the L trigger already squares you up. If you are holding your ground already. Why do you need a seperate button to stand there and hold your crotch like a soccer player on the free kick wall to draw a charge. Establishing position should be enough. Another button that could be used for more actual control on the court is being wasted by a take charge button.

[luda06]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

Pressing the A or Cross button effectively does the same thing. Just saying.

[RedStickGamer]

Re: Defensive Pick and Roll Button

Holding the L trigger already squares you up. If you are holding your ground already. Why do you need a seperate button to stand there and hold your crotch like a soccer player on the free kick wall to draw a charge. Establishing position should be enough. Another button that could be used for more actual control on the court is being wasted by a take charge button.

I agree the animation is funky, especially when the guy is moving while holding circle and sometimes will still manage to draw charges. I've became really good at avoiding them when playing cheesers, but sometimes I feel like I'm playing an obstacle course game and not basketball. My solution would be if you hit circle anywhere outside your opponents 3pt line it doesn't go for charges. I mean how many charges do you see that aren't inside the 3pt line? Sure they're possible and like Matt said you could have charges like that occur because you played good position defense with L2 and your opponent was out of control. Another thing you shouldn't be able to slowly move around while grabbing yourself........ that ain't basketball.