Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15 Player Ratings Explained

[franzis]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

The new rating system sounds interesting and I'm sure it had a lot of reasonig and work behind.
At the same time I guess it's difficult to explain/understand without specific examples and comparisons between 2k14 and 2k15 rating system.
I do hope that the new system will have some effects to other aspects of the game (i.e. CPU trading logic, Free Agency or CPU rotation logic).

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

No, it's for people to evaluate players. The game can use whatever it deems necessary. Overalls are there primarily for the user.

Trade value, contract value, rotation value - the CPU uses Overall rating to determine all of these.

There's a reason OVR popped up in games as soon as the CPU was given in-season control over personnel.

Dork's overall is crap because as a PF in a traditional role, he is crap.

Exactly. The traditional PF no longer exists. The formula should have evolved as the position evolved, but it did not. Mid-range and 3pt shooitng is an extremely important part of a PF's game and has been for a long time, yet the formula has never weighted it as such.

Frankly, I don't think you can ever fix that.

You're pretty much wrong about that. Give a PF 99 3pt and his overall rating only goes up 2 points. It's obvious where the critical flaws are.

If the majority of PF rate higher at SF than their natural positions then something is obviously wrong.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I'm a bit confused. Does a player's overall rating change if they're slotted into a different position? In other words, is LeBron a 90+ at small forward, and an 80+ at center? I'm thinking madden, when players ratings would fluctuate depending on what position they're subbed into.

Not slotted, but rather if their primary position is changed.

Ex: In my personal roster if I edit LeBron's position it will be the following OVR's

PG: 90
SG: 94
SF: 95
PF: 90
C: 88

In this case LeBron's highest rating is his natural position. However in the case of many stretch bigs....

Pero Antic
SF: 68
PF: 67
C: 64 = natural position

Due to the PF/C formula improperly weighing shooting ability, a shooting center will actually have a higher rating at a position he is incapable of even playing IRL.

Based on the provided explanation, it seems that the game will be picking the highest OVR out of the existing archetypes (as well as any others that may have been added).

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Beyond stretch bigs, the other position that usually comes up short in 2K are defensive SGs who don't create their own shot, like Thabo Sefolosha, Keith Bogans, etc. Due to their low handle ratings, they rate exclusively better at SF where Handle isn't weighted as highly.

However this also means many combo guards could be going up in rating. Just about every single PG rates higher at SG simply based on how highly 2K values Handle & Pass rating at SG proportionate to it's ACTUAL value at the position. 0This was done to ensure players like Kobe & Wade would consistently have 90-95 overall ratings.

However now that those players have declined and the archetype has changed IRL, it only serves to overvalue players like Kent Bazemore who handle the ball and not much else. Whereas a non-shot creating 3pt specialist like Kyle Korver or Klay Thompson has immensely more value at the position both IRL and video game.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

No, it's for people to evaluate players. The game can use whatever it deems necessary. Overalls are there primarily for the user.

Dork's overall is crap because as a PF in a traditional role, he is crap. Beyond that, scoring prowess is conceptually only part of the overall. So that has been reflected in his overall. It shouldn't be high because he lacks in too many other areas. But he needs to be boosted artificially so that his overall doesn't suck. Frankly, I don't think you can ever fix that.

I think you and Rashidi are right to an degree.

Overalls are for the user to know and yes it does get a lot of debates started. It is an easy way for the user to determine what players are good vs. what players are bad but they are or have been in the past used in how the CPU determines value in trades rotation lineups, etc. So that makes them vital to user and the CPU. Now if injury history plays a factor to overall that is a whole different dynamic to include.

Bedswardroy was talking how the new ratings give "value" so I see it as value to a MyLeage, Myplayer and value for a user as the same thing. I actually like this new system. It basically makes role players more valuable to teams as long as the logic is connected to Myleague etc in terms of rotations and free agency I have no problem with this.

All they did was come up with new formulas that didn't give value for certain players who are very good at their roles.

Examples:

Korver SG/SF (3pt shooter, mid range shooter). They most likely have a shooter formula that doesn't penalize him as much for not being a great dunker or euro layup rating, vertical etc.

Patrick Beverly PG (Lock down defender). They probably have a perimeter defender formula so he doesn't get penalized for not being the best at passing which should be normally for weighted high for pg's

[threattonature]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I wish the ratings were tied to the type of system each team was running. I think I understood what is being done with the ratings.

IMO from what has been said is the computer is instead of just having a certain set of attributes used to calculate all PFs, now they will have something like a defensive 4 which uses rebound, post D, blocks, steals at a higher weight when calculating the overall. If it's a stretch 4 then 3 point shooting, medium range and other factors into the overall rating they give to the player. So basically each position will have different player types that can exist for the position all with his own attributes it weighs for each type and whichever kicks out the highest overall will be their ovr rating and the player type they are listed in.

It will be interesting if player's types will change as ratings rise/fall.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I wish the ratings were tied to the type of system each team was running. I think I understood what is being done with the ratings.

IMO from what has been said is the computer is instead of just having a certain set of attributes used to calculate all PFs, now they will have something like a defensive 4 which uses rebound, post D, blocks, steals at a higher weight when calculating the overall. If it's a stretch 4 then 3 point shooting, medium range and other factors into the overall rating they give to the player. So basically each position will have different player types that can exist for the position all with his own attributes it weighs for each type and whichever kicks out the highest overall will be their ovr rating and the player type they are listed in.

It will be interesting if player's types will change as ratings rise/fall.

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system.

wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system?

We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ?

What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both.

To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it.

So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL.

ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I wish the ratings were tied to the type of system each team was running. I think I understood what is being done with the ratings.

I was thinking that too but when you look at it, does the player skills that they are actually good at suffer depending on what type of system you run? IMO the answer is no, the coaches are just running plays that don't use the talent they have best. It is more the coaches are not adjusting to their personnel. The same thing can happen assigning play types to players that shouldn't have them like postup plays to a majority of point guards.

Best example I have at the moment:

Pau/Lakers: D'antoni ran a system that doesn't use post ups hardly at all, or use his passing ability. Can Pau score on the post yes can he pass yes. His skills didn't drop his coach was just using him wrong or valued other things.

[NDAlum]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

This is a serious, not trolling question:

Why even have overalls? Can't you just put their ratings for each specific category and leave it at that?

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I totally agree with this its as if Boris Diaw was traded to the Clippers his overall should drop immediately depending the offense and defense ran there, run and gun and etc. in comparison to the ball movement and screening on the Spurs. That would be great as players are valued different in different roles and teams. Tim Thomas did good in Milwaukee as 6th man and run n gun offense. But he didn't do well in NY or CHI but then in 6th man run n gun in PHX he did well again but then when he left fell off in different system again. It should be like a team chemistry rating type of thing. The problem would only be problem if players do good/bad during the season and before/after trades and 2k doesn't adjust them promptly for us to play with those athletes appropriately.

Too inorganic. If you get everything around it right it will happen naturally.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

No, it's for people to evaluate players. The game can use whatever it deems necessary. Overalls are there primarily for the user.

Brother have you not seen some of the bad trade AI? According to NBA 2k14 Mo Williams is more valuable than Robin Lopez both in overall and trade AI.

I

ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

This is a serious, not trolling question:

Why even have overalls? Can't you just put their ratings for each specific category and leave it at that?

In reality it probably isn't needed except for the most casual of casual fans. I think it generate interest/debate and gets people talking about the game. That makes me believe it will never be taken out. Madden has made video games all about knowing the overall which is now part of marketing or revealing the game details. NBA players want to know how they compare to the best fans want to know.

[Hassan Darkside]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I wish the ratings were tied to the type of system each team was running. I think I understood what is being done with the ratings.

I suggested this in the wishlist thread. Madden does this based off of coaching scheme and it was at first mildly confusing not knowing the true value of my players but then it became irrelevant as my focus turned to who fit my scheme best.

[Hassan Darkside]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

Interesting but my question is what data would drive a players value per system when all players have not performed under each system.

wouldn't that be mostly up for interpretation or is there existing data that shows a players effectiveness in a particular system?

We don't necessarily know how a player will fare in a given stystem until we see him in it do we ?

What are the definitive markers you would use to clearly define each system especially when some guys either have no discernable "system" or run a mixture of both.

To me it just initially I think that would cause as many issues as it solves especially since it could be mostly user opinion that would drive it.

So not saying it couldn't work just asking how would it work and if that would really be better ? Another thread maybe ? IDK LOL.

ps apologies for typo's I am using a phone on a treadmill.

The way I was thinking was that schemes/systems and/or coaching sliders would influence that. Like the triangle would value defensive awareness, offensive awareness, and 3 point shooting higher than say D'Antoni's 7 second or mess offense which values offensive awareness, ball handling, and passing per say. Derek Fisher would rate much more favorably under the triangle than D'Antoni.

This is a serious, not trolling question:

Why even have overalls? Can't you just put their ratings for each specific category and leave it at that?

CPU AI needs to know how to properly value players and a lot of the logic is still tied to overall. I guess it could be hidden from the user but heh.

[adamisla]

Re: Revamped Overall Formula for NBA 2K15

I suggested this in the wishlist thread. Madden does this based off of coaching scheme and it was at first mildly confusing not knowing the true value of my players but then it became irrelevant as my focus turned to who fit my scheme best.

I feel that players roles are what determines their effectiveness, rather than schemes. For example, if a player is an effective spot up shooter, then he retains the ability to shoot, regardless of what scheme is being used. However the scheme might not prioritise getting open looks for spot up shooters. Therefore that player who is effective at spot up shooting is asked to score in other ways that are outside of his skill set thus reducing his effectiveness.