Do players develop based on production?

[dmankey1]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

We could throw examples out all day, there's no point in it. From reading everyone's post I think we can all takeaway that a players IQ should not drop over time. Over than IQ, it's mostly opinions as to what else should remain unchanged. For certain, players become less effective for their team over time. 2K reflects this but yes, it could be done different. They could add some exceptions and have variance in regression. Every player is very different and so many factors effect their performance in real life. Impossible to incorporate those in a game but I think 2K did a good job getting close.

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[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

We could throw examples out all day, there's no point in it. From reading everyone's post I think we can all takeaway that a players IQ should not drop over time. Over than IQ, it's mostly opinions as to what else should remain unchanged. For certain, players become less effective for their team over time. 2K reflects this but yes, it could be done different. They could add some exceptions and have variance in regression. Every player is very different and so many factors effect their performance in real life. Impossible to incorporate those in a game but I think 2K did a good job getting close.

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I think the issue most of us are having is that regression is so consistent (and harsh). Once a player enters the regression phase of his career (usually age 28), he will decrease by 3-4 overall every single year until he flames out of the league. This is the case for every player, without exception, or at least I have yet to find exception in my 10-15 seasons or whatever I have simmed.

If I have a 6th man/role player who is 76 overall in his age 27/28 season, I know for a fact that he will be getting zero minutes in two years. In 3 years he is guaranteed to not be worthy of a roster spot at all. The only players who exist past the age of 30 at all are the players who were very good to begin with. Even then, you know how good they will be the next season by subtracting 3 or 4 from their current overall.

I was just playing, and Thaddeus Young turns out to be a perfect example; in his age 30 season he winds up as a 70 overall. In 2014 he is seen as a young-ish player (who has likely plateaued in his development, at 26) that would be a starter on most teams and a very strong 6th man on others. 2k rates him at a 78 or 79 overall. Can anyone say, with absolute certainty, that he will be a nightly inactive in 4 years? I'm not a betting man, but I would take a serious wager that he will in fact still be quite productive 4 years from now. I bet 2k19 or whatever will have him rated at least as a 76.

Some variance is difficult to achieve, and yes it will be impossible to ever nail it absolutely perfectly for obvious reasons. But it can be done so much better (and it has before), and if nothing else the user can be given options to tailor the experience the way they would like.

As far as getting it done better, have you ever played a good text sim? I am especially partial to OOTP Baseball. The customization options are glorious, on top of a pretty darn good progression/regression system to boot. It's obviously silly to expect everything from a text sim to make it into AAA games like 2k, but that shouldn't stop us from wanting to see progress towards that.

If nothing else, more user customization options would be wonderful. There's already a progression slider which, to my understanding, simply determines how long it takes before a player peaks. The draft class quality slider does a wonderful job of determining the overall level of talent in the league.

What could be added: a slider to determine how long players stay in their prime (when regression begins), a slider to determine how sharply players regress, and, my favorite, a slider to increase progression/regression RNG (one of my favorite parts about OOTP). Having an RNG slider wouldn't be an ideal solution and many would hate it, but it would at least be an option and could be turned off.

Ideally, many factors would be considered--production, morale, team success, coaching, playing time, work ethic, injuries, and even some good 'ol RNG to some extent, but this is a bit of a holy grail (which doesn't mean we can't expect it to be worked towards!).

An obvious place to start (which we were under the impression was supposed to be in the game this year) is making sure that shooting and IQ doesn't follow the same rules at other attributes regarding regression. Another neat idea I like would be for certain players to be able to earn a badge mid career that would determine how their twilight years go.

When many players begin to lose their athleticism, they become worthless and flame out of the league. Yet some veterans actually improve their shooting, court awareness, and tendencies and find themselves contributing in an entirely different role. Vince Carter is a perfect example. The badge I had in mind could steer a player towards this sort of regression path--players with certain work ethic badges could also be more likely to earn it.

Some players naturally have a game that ages very well. These players could have a badge that is displayed early on in their career, making them particularly valuable. You get the point. There are plenty of ways the system can be improved versus what we have now, which really hasn't gotten any better over the past decade.

Sorry this was so long winded; I just had my morning coffee and the thoughts were flowing! This wasn't really directed at dmankey1, either, I just got really rant-y and kept using the same pronouns.

[dmankey1]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Players with the badge for higher work ethics should have an easier time playing at high level in their 30's. Those who don't or riddled by injuries can see a big drop off in their play in their 20's. It's pretty simple, if you're a good player and you have a high work ethic or want to be a great player and you're in good health you'll always find a way to be a contributor until your body completely gives out. Shouldn't be that hard to incorporate.

This is where variance would come into play. Good point on badges. Another way progression/regression could be controlled.

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[dmankey1]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I think the issue most of us are having is that regression is so consistent (and harsh). Once a player enters the regression phase of his career (usually age 28), he will decrease by 3-4 overall every single year until he flames out of the league. This is the case for every player, without exception, or at least I have yet to find exception in my 10-15 seasons or whatever I have simmed.

If I have a 6th man/role player who is 76 overall in his age 27/28 season, I know for a fact that he will be getting zero minutes in two years. In 3 years he is guaranteed to not be worthy of a roster spot at all. The only players who exist past the age of 30 at all are the players who were very good to begin with. Even then, you know how good they will be the next season by subtracting 3 or 4 from their current overall.

I was just playing, and Thaddeus Young turns out to be a perfect example; in his age 30 season he winds up as a 70 overall. In 2014 he is seen as a young-ish player (who has likely plateaued in his development, at 26) that would be a starter on most teams and a very strong 6th man on others. 2k rates him at a 78 or 79 overall. Can anyone say, with absolute certainty, that he will be a nightly inactive in 4 years? I'm not a betting man, but I would take a serious wager that he will in fact still be quite productive 4 years from now. I bet 2k19 or whatever will have him rated at least as a 76.

Some variance is difficult to achieve, and yes it will be impossible to ever nail it absolutely perfectly for obvious reasons. But it can be done so much better (and it has before), and if nothing else the user can be given options to tailor the experience the way they would like.

As far as getting it done better, have you ever played a good text sim? I am especially partial to OOTP Baseball. The customization options are glorious, on top of a pretty darn good progression/regression system to boot. It's obviously silly to expect everything from a text sim to make it into AAA games like 2k, but that shouldn't stop us from wanting to see progress towards that.

If nothing else, more user customization options would be wonderful. There's already a progression slider which, to my understanding, simply determines how long it takes before a player peaks. The draft class quality slider does a wonderful job of determining the overall level of talent in the league.

What could be added: a slider to determine how long players stay in their prime (when regression begins), a slider to determine how sharply players regress, and, my favorite, a slider to increase progression/regression RNG (one of my favorite parts about OOTP). Having an RNG slider wouldn't be an ideal solution and many would hate it, but it would at least be an option and could be turned off.

Ideally, many factors would be considered--production, morale, team success, coaching, playing time, work ethic, injuries, and even some good 'ol RNG to some extent, but this is a bit of a holy grail (which doesn't mean we can't expect it to be worked towards!).

An obvious place to start (which we were under the impression was supposed to be in the game this year) is making sure that shooting and IQ doesn't follow the same rules at other attributes regarding regression. Another neat idea I like would be for certain players to be able to earn a badge mid career that would determine how their twilight years go.

When many players begin to lose their athleticism, they become worthless and flame out of the league. Yet some veterans actually improve their shooting, court awareness, and tendencies and find themselves contributing in an entirely different role. Vince Carter is a perfect example. The badge I had in mind could steer a player towards this sort of regression path--players with certain work ethic badges could also be more likely to earn it.

Some players naturally have a game that ages very well. These players could have a badge that is displayed early on in their career, making them particularly valuable. You get the point. There are plenty of ways the system can be improved versus what we have now, which really hasn't gotten any better over the past decade.

Sorry this was so long winded; I just had my morning coffee and the thoughts were flowing! This wasn't really directed at dmankey1, either, I just got really rant-y and kept using the same pronouns.

Very good points brought up. Currently too consistent and harsh (the problem most people have). I like the idea of more customization for the user (sliders), badges sound like a good mouse trap to slow regression on certain players and speed up progression for others (development trait). Variance is the biggest thing. I think we can all agree that if anything else, regression varied, we would be much happier with the current system.

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

The post and comments area example that basketball gamers who think they are sim aren't actually sim at all.



There are a lot of real life players who sharply regress and not every player will progress and regress the same and yes there are guys who regress in their late 20s and early 30s but you don't want the game to express that for some reason.



Now if every player just kept going up and progressing well into their late 30s then you all would have a problem with that. This system is trying to vary things based on a lot of factors like chemistry, injury, playing time, training, etc...and instead of thinking about that some of you just yell out "its broken, its broken, its broken"



Its starting to turn into the boy who cried wolf in here.

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Now if every player just kept going up and progressing well into their late 30s then you all would have a problem with that. This system is trying to vary things based on a lot of factors like chemistry, injury, playing time, training, etc...and instead of thinking about that some of you just yell out "its broken, its broken, its broken"

I was nodding my head in agreement until I read this part.

If the system is trying to take those things into account then fantastic--color me seriously impressed, it's much more than I would've expected from this year's game.

That simply isn't what I've noticed so far, though. If you've been getting different results I would love to see them...seriously, I honestly want nothing more than to be proved wrong. But, so far, I've noticed consistent regression from every player except for maybe LeBron. By that I mean 3-4 overall decreases every year a player enters his regression phase. I have seen absolutely zero variation from that, and it's not realistic in the slightest.

[BluFu]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

There are a lot of real life players who sharply regress and not every player will progress and regress the same and yes there are guys who regress in their late 20s and early 30s but you don't want the game to express that for some reason.

show me anywhere in this thread where someone said that..

Now if every player just kept going up and progressing well into their late 30s then you all would have a problem with that. This system is trying to vary things based on a lot of factors like chemistry, injury, playing time, training, etc...and instead of thinking about that some of you just yell out "its broken, its broken, its broken"

are you joking? or have you not gone past your 5th season in myleague?

if it's the latter, go sim a couple of seasons, then tell me the amount of 30 year olds that are 75+.. THATS the issue. there is ZERO variation.

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

show me anywhere in this thread where someone said that..


are you joking? or have you not gone past your 5th season in myleague?

if it's the latter, go sim a couple of seasons, then tell me the amount of 30 year olds that are 75+.. THATS the issue. there is ZERO variation.

I have no issue with that, especially when its customizable

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

2k thought they were doing the right thing by giving full control over how MyLeague operates.
It feels like , from this thread and others, that giving full control is 2k admitting something is broken which is ridiculous.

Either you want full control or you don't. I dont get it. Some of us are ok with progression but for most of you who aren't they gave you sliders to tweak it your way and you all are still upset.

I think a dev needs to fully explain what each slider does and how everything in myleague works. Completely in depth.

[BluFu]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

2k thought they were doing the right thing by giving full control over how MyLeague operates.
It feels like , from this thread and others, that giving full control is 2k admitting something is broken which is ridiculous.

Either you want full control or you don't. I dont get it. Some of us are ok with progression but for most of you who aren't they gave you sliders to tweak it your way and you all are still upset.

I think a dev needs to fully explain what each slider does and how everything in myleague works. Completely in depth.

everyone wants control if they're playing myleague.. let me get that out of the way.

what sliders are you referring to? the progression slider? yeah, we all know that one. it controls how quickly players reach they're peak (potential) but it does not control how players regress.

a slider for this would be welcomed as other people said. but there is none, hence this thread

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

everyone wants control if they're playing myleague.. let me get that out of the way.



what sliders are you referring to? the progression slider? yeah, we all know that one. it controls how quickly players reach they're peak (potential) but it does not control how players regress.



a slider for this would be welcomed as other people said. but there is none, hence this thread

Well I think its fair to say they missed a regression slider. Maybe they could add this next time and I don't think it was something left out. Sometimes things are overlooked or missed.



The thing I hate is when people are quick to say its broken or "that's 2k for you". They have been pretty perceptive and have even added people from these boards to their team.

[cj2008nw]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Well I think its fair to say they missed a regression slider. Maybe they could add this next time and I don't think it was something left out. Sometimes things are overlooked or missed.



The thing I hate is when people are quick to say its broken or "that's 2k for you". They have been pretty perceptive and have even added people from these boards to their team.

This is definitely broken!!! I've been an association guy got the past 9 years and the player progression system is all messed up...

2k thought they were doing the right thing by giving full control over how MyLeague operates.
It feels like , from this thread and others, that giving full control is 2k admitting something is broken which is ridiculous.

Either you want full control or you don't. I dont get it. Some of us are ok with progression but for most of you who aren't they gave you sliders to tweak it your way and you all are still upset.

I think a dev needs to fully explain what each slider does and how everything in myleague works. Completely in depth.

I really don't know what point you are trying to argue here. If were a slider or something we could change than we wouldn't be talking about this... There should be some kind of patch that can fix the players progression/regression

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

This is definitely broken!!! I've been an association guy got the past 9 years and the player progression system is all messed up...







I really don't know what point you are trying to argue here. If were a slider or something we could change than we wouldn't be talking about this... There should be some kind of patch that can fix the players progression/regression

The point im trying to make is that if you are saying that if a slider would have been added to fix this, then just request for that for the next game. That doesn't mean its broken. It probably wasn't thought of or didn't get in. You guys are so quick to call everything broken as if there was some malice involved with the devs. Relax.



Next year push for it to get in.

[BluFu]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

The point im trying to make is that if you are saying that if a slider would have been added to fix this, then just request for that for the next game. That doesn't mean its broken. It probably wasn't thought of or didn't get in. You guys are so quick to call everything broken as if there was some malice involved with the devs. Relax.


Next year push for it to get in.

i don't see anyone being disrespectful towards the devs, we're just trying to point something out that's a known issue. you're not a myleague player, i get that, but don't just start discrediting what other people are observing.

the feature is not working the way the devs intended. plain & simple. i was up to date with all franchise news before release and one of the things stated specifically by the devs themselves was that players would not regress in iq & take minimal deductions in shooting. if you played one of the franchise modes extensively enough, you would see that these improvements promised for 2K15 were not integrated properly into the game.

in short, this thread is bringing light to a feature that was promised but not delivered (besides all the complications that might have been involved). a regression slider would be a welcome bandaid to the problem but it's not a "fix" that should be pushed for 2K16.

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

The post and comments area example that basketball gamers who think they are sim aren't actually sim at all.



There are a lot of real life players who sharply regress and not every player will progress and regress the same and yes there are guys who regress in their late 20s and early 30s but you don't want the game to express that for some reason.



Now if every player just kept going up and progressing well into their late 30s then you all would have a problem with that. This system is trying to vary things based on a lot of factors like chemistry, injury, playing time, training, etc...and instead of thinking about that some of you just yell out "its broken, its broken, its broken"



Its starting to turn into the boy who cried wolf in here.

No I never said I don't want guys in there 20's getting worse. The problem is that most guys in the NBA start to get worse around 31-32 and in this game its more like 27-28. The problem is that ever guy 30 gets worse. Did you not see that I posted I did a sim and only 3 guys that where 30 or older did not get worse and most guys 30-31 where getting 4-6 points worse? The problem is there are far to many guys get worse and that is far form realistic. You should have some guys get worse at 28 and other guys at 30 and other guys at 32 ect. Right now that is not what happends ever one just gets worse right around 29,30.


Also some guys even if they start to get worse it should only be a little worse ever year not a big drop and you don't really see that either has ever one drops off big. With the way things are you cant be an allstar type player at 30 and that is not realistic. Most guys don't go form like 20 points a game down to like 10 in 1 year in less they have a lot of injures. Most guys have kind of a slow drop off and that doesn't happened in this game. Because everone drops off at like the same age there is no vereation there for it is broken. Some of the people are hear sound like they are trying to defend 2k on this when it is a majore issue.