Re: Do players develop based on production?

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

No I never said I don't want guys in there 20's getting worse. The problem is that most guys in the NBA start to get worse around 31-32 and in this game its more like 27-28. The problem is that ever guy 30 gets worse. Did you not see that I posted I did a sim and only 3 guys that where 30 or older did not get worse and most guys 30-31 where getting 4-6 points worse? The problem is there are far to many guys get worse and that is far form realistic. You should have some guys get worse at 28 and other guys at 30 and other guys at 32 ect. Right now that is not what happends ever one just gets worse right around 29,30.











Also some guys even if they start to get worse it should only be a little worse ever year not a big drop and you don't really see that either has ever one drops off big. With the way things are you cant be an allstar type player at 30 and that is not realistic. Most guys don't go form like 20 points a game down to like 10 in 1 year in less they have a lot of injures. Most guys have kind of a slow drop off and that doesn't happened in this game. Because everone drops off at like the same age there is no vereation there for it is broken. Some of the people are hear sound like they are trying to defend 2k on this when it is a majore issue.

I wish you all would show real life drop offs to prove your point but none of you have so who are any of you to say what is and what isn't realistic?



Some guys drop off fast and some guys drop off slow. It cant be that all the players drop off fast, but if you all say so then I guess it is.



This is your issue and the others. I say take it up with the devs if you feel so strong about it.



Also, what would be your solution instead of constantly screaming "its broke , its broke" Saying that everytime you have an issue with the game doesn't help

[TheEmperor2001]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Does slowing the rate at which a player progresses also slow the rate at which players regress? So if I lower the player progression slider closer to 0, will he reach his peak later in is career?

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I wish you all would show real life drop offs to prove your point but none of you have so who are any of you to say what is and what isn't realistic?



Some guys drop off fast and some guys drop off slow. It cant be that all the players drop off fast, but if you all say so then I guess it is.



This is your issue and the others. I say take it up with the devs if you feel so strong about it.



Also, what would be your solution instead of constantly screaming "its broke , its broke" Saying that everytime you have an issue with the game doesn't help

Some one already had a few players on hear and I talked about how there stats didn't really get worse in till they where in there 30's. The talk on TV all the time about how a players prim is form around 25-31 or so.


Most the guys do drop off fast in this game that is the problem. Some one similatied like 10 years and there was only 2 guys at 32 or above in the league because players decine so much that players or worthless to have on a team at like 31, 32. How is having just 2 guys in the whole league at 32 or older realistic?


Intreams of a solution that is a hard one because I don't know how the whole player progress works in this game. I think has players get older that you may have to have better stats to not go down. What I mean is that I think the younger a player is the less a player gets penerlized if they don't have stats close to there carrier stats. Where I think has players get older that they get penerlized more and more if they don't have stats close to there carrier average. So I think has players get older I think stats matter more and more on if a player is going to decline or not. Players decline about 3 years to early in the game.


So I think I would make it so that players don't decline for about 3 years longer then it is right now. I think I would make it so that has players get older they don't get penerlized has much has they do now if they don't meet there carrier stats. Say a guy is an 20 points 10 rebound guy on 55% shooting and say he is 30 years old and he has a year of 18 points and 8 rebounds and 53% shooting. Say if that would penerlized 20% I would lower it to say a 15% pernerlized in stead of 20.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I've been playing association for years and IF it's going to be broken I rather it be broken in this way than in the way it was broken in the past.

You guys liked how 5 years in every team has a starting 5 where every player was in the 80's?

I agree progression system is not optimal right now but it's 100 times better than it was. The second tier stars of the league shouldn't be the same 5 years in. That's not how the NBA works.

Remember in 2004 when the stars in the NBA were T-Mac, Yao, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, The Pistons starting 5, Kenyon Martin, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Peja Stokakovic, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Dirk, K.G...

Fast forward 5 years later to 2009. Who stats and performance wise heavily regressed from that list? T-Mac, Yao, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Shaq, The Pistons starting 5, Kenyon Martin, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Peja, Baron Davis, Steph, Steve Francis, and Ray Allen/K.G. were beginning his fall from superstar to clutch performer who shows up for the post season. The only ones left still at the top of the league were Kobe, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, and Dirk.

The league in 2009 was being run by the rookies from 03, 04, and 05 years earlier. Guys who were just arriving or weren't yet in the league in 04.: Carmelo, Lebron, Bosh, Wade, CP3, Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, Amare Stoudemire.

In '09 12 of the top 22 guys in PPG were Ben Gordon, Al Harrington, David West, Brandon Roy, Devin Harris, Antawn Jamison, Danny Granger, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Yao, Richard Jefferson, Jason Terry. So more than HALF of the guys who lead the league in scoring 5 years ago aren't even in the top 30 this year.

Half of the guys in the league right now who are older than 27 will not be in the top 30 in scoring in 5 years.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

LOL all these tweaks that you manually have to do yourself essentially show how broken the game is to begin with.

Have you ever played the MyLeague or MyGM? Tweaking your players training focus is half of the game. Leftos even talked about how important the training schedule is to keeping older players from declining too quick and for developing younger players.

How does that show that it's broken?

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I've been playing association for years and IF it's going to be broken I rather it be broken in this way than in the way it was broken in the past.

You guys liked how 5 years in every team has a starting 5 where every player was in the 80's?

I agree progression system is not optimal right now but it's 100 times better than it was. The second tier stars of the league shouldn't be the same 5 years in. That's not how the NBA works.

Remember in 2004 when the stars in the NBA were T-Mac, Yao, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, The Pistons starting 5, Kenyon Martin, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Peja Stokakovic, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Dirk, K.G...

Fast forward 5 years later to 2009. Who stats and performance wise heavily regressed from that list? T-Mac, Yao, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Shaq, The Pistons starting 5, Kenyon Martin, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Peja, Baron Davis, Steph, Steve Francis, and Ray Allen/K.G. were beginning his fall from superstar to clutch performer who shows up for the post season. The only ones left still at the top of the league were Kobe, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, and Dirk.

The league in 2009 was being run by the rookies from 03, 04, and 05 years earlier. Guys who were just arriving or weren't yet in the league in 04.: Carmelo, Lebron, Bosh, Wade, CP3, Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, Amare Stoudemire.

In '09 12 of the top 22 guys in PPG were Ben Gordon, Al Harrington, David West, Brandon Roy, Devin Harris, Antawn Jamison, Danny Granger, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Yao, Richard Jefferson, Jason Terry. So more than HALF of the guys who lead the league in scoring 5 years ago aren't even in the top 30 this year.

Half of the guys in the league right now who are older than 27 will not be in the top 30 in scoring in 5 years.

They definitely tried to improve things this year and I'm happy for that. The game experienced serious ratings inflation previously; now, the Draft Class Quality slider is fantastic for determining the overall talent level in the league (seriously fixes so much, I've wanted this for years) and the progression slider is helpful for your first few MyLeague years achieve the overall talent level you want, by making sure young guys don't progress too quickly.

There's still plenty of work to do, though. The biggest thing that's already been said plenty is that we were promised shooting and iq stats would age differently, and that has not been the case. Fixing that alone would change things for the better.

I'm glad that "Half of the guys in the league right now who are older than 27 will not be in the top 30 in scoring in 5 years" can be represented in game. The problem is that that, in 2k15, half the guys in the league who are now older than 27 will be completely out of the league at 32, another quarter will be rostered but nightly inactives, and the rest will be bit role players. Regression is great and needs to happen, but there's no reason to be so sharp or consistent. 3-4 overall decreases every year, like clockwork. Players who peak at 73 become nightly inactives at 28-29, players who peak at 76-77 are nightly inactives at 29-30, and so on.

Long story short: there is a big difference from "greatly diminished and possibly no longer starting" to "not longer playing in NBA games." I know you weren't exactly defending the current system, but I really don't think it's better than what we've seen. The overall talent level in MyLeague definitely is, which I'm very happy for, but I think that's due to other factors like the draft class slider.

However...

Have you ever played the MyLeague or MyGM? Tweaking your players training focus is half of the game. Leftos even talked about how important the training schedule is to keeping older players from declining too quick and for developing younger players.

How does that show that it's broken?

The training system is awesome, if in need of some polishing. I have a lot of fun tweaking it for players, and I especially love trying to craft rookies into the role players I want them to become. I do wish it had been explained better, though (at least I never really found any sort of guide for it). I didn't even know that you could change players to get trained as a different type until a few weeks with the game--I previously thought it was only the player's hardwired type or specific attributes that could be trained.

If player's need to be trained a certain way to keep from declining to quickly I wish I knew what that was. There's nothing to really indicate such, so I wouldn't really know for sure. Either way, it's kind of meaningless if the AI doesn't properly know what to do, which it doesn't seem to (30 team control obviously circumvents this issue). The same applies for training/progression--Kevin Love's 3 point shooting declines more quickly than it should because the AI will always train him as "rebounding."

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?



I was actually digging around for info on "Supermax" contract extensions so I can properly implement them in my game and found this gem. A typical player's "peak" lasts through seasons 3-8. Obviously there is plenty of variation there for each player, but this is an average.

The game does a good job there. Players in 2k15 start to decline around age 28, which is about right, though it would be nice to see a little more variation obviously.

The problem, though (which is what I think it ultimately bothering us) is that player decline should not be so sharp or consistent for everybody. Each of these lines does not have have the same slope when declining. If it were 2k they would, and the weaker role players would be completely out of the league, every time without fail, by age 29-30. Heck, even for top level players you can see decline isn't consistent every year. The predictive nature of player decline is what's taking the fun away for so many of us, not the fact that players are declining.

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I've been playing association for years and IF it's going to be broken I rather it be broken in this way than in the way it was broken in the past.

You guys liked how 5 years in every team has a starting 5 where every player was in the 80's?

I agree progression system is not optimal right now but it's 100 times better than it was. The second tier stars of the league shouldn't be the same 5 years in. That's not how the NBA works.

Remember in 2004 when the stars in the NBA were T-Mac, Yao, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, The Pistons starting 5, Kenyon Martin, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Peja Stokakovic, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Dirk, K.G...

Fast forward 5 years later to 2009. Who stats and performance wise heavily regressed from that list? T-Mac, Yao, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, Shaq, The Pistons starting 5, Kenyon Martin, Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Peja, Baron Davis, Steph, Steve Francis, and Ray Allen/K.G. were beginning his fall from superstar to clutch performer who shows up for the post season. The only ones left still at the top of the league were Kobe, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, and Dirk.

The league in 2009 was being run by the rookies from 03, 04, and 05 years earlier. Guys who were just arriving or weren't yet in the league in 04.: Carmelo, Lebron, Bosh, Wade, CP3, Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, Amare Stoudemire.

In '09 12 of the top 22 guys in PPG were Ben Gordon, Al Harrington, David West, Brandon Roy, Devin Harris, Antawn Jamison, Danny Granger, Joe Johnson, Dwyane Wade, Yao, Richard Jefferson, Jason Terry. So more than HALF of the guys who lead the league in scoring 5 years ago aren't even in the top 30 this year.

Half of the guys in the league right now who are older than 27 will not be in the top 30 in scoring in 5 years.

Guys who are older then 27 in 5 years will be 33. It is a lot different for a guy to decline at 33 compared to 29. Also In the game it is like 90% not half of the guys that decline a lot.

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

It's broken (or at least really poorly designed) Training schedules can't help the other 29 teams, where way too many players are declining too quickly. I ran two sims tonight and at the start of the second season, pretty much every player near the age of 30 and up had lost between 2-6 overall points. There were only a handful of exceptions, like LeBron who stayed the same. The Spurs practically became a joke overnight. Now I know their big three can't be expected to maintain their overalls forever, but when they're declining by like 4-5 points each, in addition to every other semi-old player on the team like Splitter, Bonner, Diaw and Green (who's what, 28?) all declining by several points as well (because there's absolutely no variation to how age based regression works in the game) then you have a problem where the system is bugged/broken.

Yeah I saw in a sim like 9 guys decline on just the bulls and a lot of them where 4-6 points that is crazy to have that many guys decline in 1 season.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I actually understand where our disconnect is. I am not using 2k's out of box rosters as I did test MyLeague's and saw the same problems you all are illustrating. The thing is I figured out early how to fix it and did so in my personal roster.

The reason guys like Danny Green, Patrick Beverly, Roy Hibbert, Boris Diaw, etc. decline so rapidly is the way the potential rating works this year. You have to give the person that you don't want to see rapidly decline a potential rating that is AT LEAST 1 or 2 points more than their overall. If you do that for the guys who you feel are unrealistically declining you'll see the problem dissipate to realistic levels.

I completely forgot that that was a thing as I haven't used 2k's rosters for a MyGM MyLeague at all so I have a different experience than what's being illustrated here.

The problem, though (which is what I think it ultimately bothering us) is that player decline should not be so sharp or consistent for everybody. Each of these lines does not have have the same slope when declining. If it were 2k they would, and the weaker role players would be completely out of the league, every time without fail, by age 29-30. Heck, even for top level players you can see decline isn't consistent every year. The predictive nature of player decline is what's taking the fun away for so many of us, not the fact that players are declining.

To your point here JooseGoose I have always agreed that the problem isn't the ratings it's the way the CPU applies the ratings which is also semi-fixable. If a coaches Line-Up Performance Factor slider is higher than they will rely less on playing who is better and more on playing who is having good games.

With that in mind Dwyane Wade in 3 years might have the skills of an average 77 overall rated NBA player. Having him averaging 20 points a night for you won't help you win but he will get those minutes to do so regardless thanks to his coach favoring him. This is what you are seeing with Kobe Bryant this year with the Lakers. He's not a guy who you want taking all your shots but he does so anyway and his team loses as a result.

I have learned Stats and Overall ratings are only loosely connected. For example take Nick Young who is rated in the mid 70's. If you take down the shot tendency rating and touch rating of his teammates into the 50's, 40's and you raise his shot tendency and touch rating into the 90's you'll see Nick Young averaging 20+ a night.

The game has all the tools in it to make it work the problem is as was said above that the CPU doesn't utilize things like evolving a players tendency's, making them your #1 scoring option, and giving them heavy minutes unless their overall rating is high.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I believe the actual system is about right, with very, very few exceptions (shooting and iq stats would age differently, etc).

What really needs the extra effort is the "peak age" of players and that is a whole other story and issue. It has to be addressed on a player to player base and while I havent checked this on 2K15, on prior versions it wasnt an editable variable (unless via an unofficial roster editor like RMC, "K should continue to expand the roster editor as almost nothing should be hidden nor uneditable, also looking at you: hotspots, hot zones, coaches grades, team chemestry, GMs roster build and draft stances, teams default freelance, etc), hopefully we get this to be editable for us, if not for 15 for 16.

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Went looking around my MyLeague to find the veterans I could, took a few screenshots.

Make of it what you wish.

<iframe class="imgur-album" width="100%" height="550" frameborder="0" src="//imgur.com/a/W0kN7/embed"></iframe>

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Went looking around my MyLeague to find the veterans I could, took a few screenshots.

Make of it what you wish.

<iframe class="imgur-album" src="//imgur.com/a/W0kN7/embed" frameborder="0" height="550" width="100%"></iframe>

Yea the issue is with the rosters you are using. I don't have this problem with my Association modes. Try using different rosters or adjusting the potential ratings to be 2 points more than those players overall ratings..

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Yea the issue is with the rosters you are using. I don't have this problem with my Association modes. Try using different rosters or adjusting the potential ratings to be 2 points more than those players overall ratings..

Granted, I've never tried doing that to an entire roster, but I have done that for various guys before to try and stop the bleeding. Pekovic here was one such guy (I even increased his ratings so he's actually rated higher in the picture than he otherwise would have been); it's never done a thing for me. Could be a case of small sample size though.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Granted, I've never tried doing that to an entire roster, but I have done that for various guys before to try and stop the bleeding. Pekovic here was one such guy (I even increased his ratings so he's actually rated higher in the picture than he otherwise would have been); it's never done a thing for me. Could be a case of small sample size though.

Pekovic is a guy who I want to fall off in my franchise as I feel that's where he's headed in real life. He has the big long term contract and has never played more than 65 games in a season in his first 4 years. He's also 29 years old as of this season. There is no way Pekovic is still anywhere near a starting lineup in 3-4 years. I have always been OK with his sharp decline.

It's better to try it on sub 28 year old non injury prone guys. Constant injuries will cause a decline in a player as well as they won't be able to train consistently to keep their skills sharp.

Evans, McGee, Horford, Shump, D Will, Pekovic are examples from your slide of very injury prone players who are most likely not improving. Deron Williams for one is in danger of entering Baron Davis territory in a few years.

The other thing is guys may not be injury prone now but 5 years into the franchise have accumulated enough injuries to a single body part to make them so. The rest of those guys in your images have potential ratings equal with their current overalls and are well past their primes by the point in your myleague.