Do players develop based on production?

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Pekovic is a guy who I want to fall off in my franchise as I feel that's where he's headed in real life. He has the big long term contract and has never played more than 65 games in a season in his first 4 years. He's also 29 years old as of this season. There is no way Pekovic is still anywhere near a starting lineup in 3-4 years. I have always been OK with his sharp decline.

It's better to try it on sub 28 year old non injury prone guys. Constant injuries will cause a decline in a player as well as they won't be able to train consistently to keep their skills sharp.

Evans, McGee, Horford, Shump, D Will, Pekovic are examples from your slide of very injury prone players who are most likely not improving. Deron Williams for one is in danger of entering Baron Davis territory in a few years.

The other thing is guys may not be injury prone now but 5 years into the franchise have accumulated enough injuries to a single body part to make them so. The rest of those guys in your images have potential ratings equal with their current overalls and are well past their primes by the point in your myleague.

Agree on Pekovic, though it's worth mentioning he really didn't suffer from any injuries in the game. His decline was completely independent of injury (though that likely won't be the case in real life). I've raised potential for many, many guys before (with no success) but Pekovic was the only one in the above images so I mentioned him.

To be clear, there are plenty more where the above images came from, the guys above were just the first ones I came across when doing a quick scan of the league, and were all the appropriate age. They have regressed exactly like every other player has; 3-4 overall decreases every single year they start to regress.

Vasquez, Wolters, Green, Shumpert, Mack, are absolutely not "past their prime." It's not reasonable to expect all of them (or any, really) to further improve but for all of them to be completely out of the NBA at or before age 30 is a bit silly, no? Especially if you consider all of the other guys (and everyone else of the same age that I didn't bother to include), it's nowhere near realistic. Even Pekovic, I agree he won't be a starter in a few years but guaranteed out of the NBA?

I forgot to mention, the reason I even did this scan in the first place was because I had noticed that, except for a few teams with stacked decks, every team in my league was horrible (~70 overall). I looked around to see if the computer generated players were all that bad (I've lowered draft quality to be closer to real life), but no, there's just a complete lack of veterans.

I'll probably go through and try what you've done--apply potential changes to everyone. It's going to stink because I've loved getting to use Beds' updated official rosters but if there's any chance it brings things closer to normalcy, it'll be worth it.

[dmankey1]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Vasquez, Wolters, Green, Shumpert, Mack, are absolutely not "past their prime." It's not reasonable to expect all of them (or any, really) to further improve but for all of them to be completely out of the NBA at or before age 30 is a bit silly, no? Especially if you consider all of the other guys (and everyone else of the same age that I didn't bother to include), it's nowhere near realistic. Even Pekovic, I agree he won't be a starter in a few years but guaranteed out of the NBA?

I'm keeping an eye on Wolters in MyLeague. I'm in year 3 with the Bucks and he's been a solid bench PG with several starts due to injuries and such. currently he is still a 75 ovr base and normally gets 1 or 2 more boost during the season. I thought about adjusting is potential because I really like playing with him. I managed to keep him on board this year with 3.6m/year for 1 year but I don't know if I'll fork over a multi-year 4-6m/year if he's going to decline quickly...

On a positive note, I've got Kemba Walker in his first year of a 12m/4 year deal which will put him right at 30 at the end of his contract

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Some one already had a few players on hear and I talked about how there stats didn't really get worse in till they where in there 30's. The talk on TV all the time about how a players prim is form around 25-31 or so.


Most the guys do drop off fast in this game that is the problem. Some one similatied like 10 years and there was only 2 guys at 32 or above in the league because players decine so much that players or worthless to have on a team at like 31, 32. How is having just 2 guys in the whole league at 32 or older realistic?


Intreams of a solution that is a hard one because I don't know how the whole player progress works in this game. I think has players get older that you may have to have better stats to not go down. What I mean is that I think the younger a player is the less a player gets penerlized if they don't have stats close to there carrier stats. Where I think has players get older that they get penerlized more and more if they don't have stats close to there carrier average. So I think has players get older I think stats matter more and more on if a player is going to decline or not. Players decline about 3 years to early in the game.


So I think I would make it so that players don't decline for about 3 years longer then it is right now. I think I would make it so that has players get older they don't get penerlized has much has they do now if they don't meet there carrier stats. Say a guy is an 20 points 10 rebound guy on 55% shooting and say he is 30 years old and he has a year of 18 points and 8 rebounds and 53% shooting. Say if that would penerlized 20% I would lower it to say a 15% pernerlized in stead of 20.

Well said dark

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Granted, I've never tried doing that to an entire roster, but I have done that for various guys before to try and stop the bleeding. Pekovic here was one such guy (I even increased his ratings so he's actually rated higher in the picture than he otherwise would have been); it's never done a thing for me. Could be a case of small sample size though.

I think this is the way but it so damn tedious.

[dmankey1]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Does slowing the rate at which a player progresses also slow the rate at which players regress? So if I lower the player progression slider closer to 0, will he reach his peak later in is career?

What will this do? Has anybody checked? In theory it seems like it may work. Pushing the time back on when they reach peak and therefore delaying their decline one peak is reached...

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

What will this do? Has anybody checked? In theory it seems like it may work. Pushing the time back on when they reach peak and therefore delaying their decline one peak is reached...

If this system has any hold over from years past then no this won't solve the issue. I haven't tested it but in years past 2K had a hidden formula that many of us roster editors found in RED MC for 'Peak Age Start' and 'Peak Age End.' The Peak Age was the years at which a players overall rating would rapidly ascend towards his potential. If the player was already at his potential he would star at that overall until his 'Peak Age End' year.

The majority of role players had peak ages from 27-28. Better players were 25-31 and some guys i.e. Ricky Rubio and Steve Nash had Peak Age set at 29-35.

If this hidden Peak Age modifier is still affecting development I don't know how slowing the progression slider stops a player from falling off after his peak age is over even if he hasn't reached his potential due to slower progression.

I forgot to mention, the reason I even did this scan in the first place was because I had noticed that, except for a few teams with stacked decks, every team in my league was horrible (~70 overall). I looked around to see if the computer generated players were all that bad (I've lowered draft quality to be closer to real life), but no, there's just a complete lack of veterans.

I'll probably go through and try what you've done--apply potential changes to everyone. It's going to stink because I've loved getting to use Beds' updated official rosters but if there's any chance it brings things closer to normalcy, it'll be worth it.

I will do some more tests though before I completely say that it's not broken.

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Yea the issue is with the rosters you are using. I don't have this problem with my Association modes. Try using different rosters or adjusting the potential ratings to be 2 points more than those players overall ratings..

Has any one tested this? Has any one else tried to up the potential rating to see what happens? What about rookies that get drafted in MYLEAGUE? Can you edit ever player in the league in MYLEAGUE or do you have to do 30 team control? Can you do a sim and post some screens of the players in the progression stauge?

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Well said dark

Thinks man do you have any ideas to added to this?

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

What will this do? Has anybody checked? In theory it seems like it may work. Pushing the time back on when they reach peak and therefore delaying their decline one peak is reached...

When I tried simulations with the progression slider at different numbers I kept track of the amont of guys that went down at around age 30 and it semed like the progression slider made no difference. The only difference I really noticed with the progression slider higher is that the most any player would improve with the slider at 100 was like 11 points and at 0 on the progression slider the most a player would improve was like 6. When I had the progession slider at 100 I saw more guys improving by like 5-9 points where at o more of those guys would improve by like 2-4 instead of 5-9. Guys droped the same way form what I saw but I may need to test this some more.

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

If this system has any hold over from years past then no this won't solve the issue. I haven't tested it but in years past 2K had a hidden formula that many of us roster editors found in RED MC for 'Peak Age Start' and 'Peak Age End.' The Peak Age was the years at which a players overall rating would rapidly ascend towards his potential. If the player was already at his potential he would star at that overall until his 'Peak Age End' year.

The majority of role players had peak ages from 27-28. Better players were 25-31 and some guys i.e. Ricky Rubio and Steve Nash had Peak Age set at 29-35.

If this hidden Peak Age modifier is still affecting development I don't know how slowing the progression slider stops a player from falling off after his peak age is over even if he hasn't reached his potential due to slower progression.



I will do some more tests though before I completely say that it's not broken.

That is interesting I had never heard of the hidden peak age thing before.

[LuckyHandsINC]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

What will this do? Has anybody checked? In theory it seems like it may work. Pushing the time back on when they reach peak and therefore delaying their decline one peak is reached...

This unfortunately doesn't work. I did a sim with progression a zero and everyone went down at least one point. I'm talking prime stars, rookies and all. Literally 100% of the league regressed.

[BluFu]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

When I tried simulations with the progression slider at different numbers I kept track of the amont of guys that went down at around age 30 and it semed like the progression slider made no difference. The only difference I really noticed with the progression slider higher is that the most any player would improve with the slider at 100 was like 11 points and at 0 on the progression slider the most a player would improve was like 6. When I had the progession slider at 100 I saw more guys improving by like 5-9 points where at o more of those guys would improve by like 2-4 instead of 5-9. Guys droped the same way form what I saw but I may need to test this some more.

you don't need to do more tests, the hidden peak age is hardcoded into the game. raising the progression slider higher/lower doesn't push back/forward the peak age, it just adjusts how quickly a player will progress within that time. that's why your seeing players improve by different points depending on the slider.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

you don't need to do more tests, the hidden peak age is hardcoded into the game. raising the progression slider higher/lower doesn't push back/forward the peak age, it just adjusts how quickly a player will progress within that time. that's why your seeing players improve by different points depending on the slider.

This.

The problem with editing guys like Boguts' potential is those guys are coded to be already over the hill/past their primes. Bogut is not going to improve at all in the game as he shouldn't. Andrew Bogut is a 29 year old Center with a history of serious injuries. There's no way a sim basketball game should have him rated anywhere near where he is now in 3 seasons. See Dalembert's progression from 2k12 to 2k15. Dalembert is a complete non factor in real life now. That's where I imagine Bogut will be by NBA 2k18. A complete non factor Center. The only way he's still getting paid more than the vets minimum in 2k18 is if someone signs him to a bad long term guaranteed contract before that.

Like I said Bogut, Pekovic and other guys with injury history who are near or at 30 years old SHOULD be rapidly regressing. And the only way that you should be able to slow the regression is with training and off season training camps. As is the case in real life.

The question should be more guys like Nate Wolters, Patrick Beverly, and Draymond Green rapidly declining to sub 70 ratings after you raise their potential rating a few points.

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Andrew Bogut is a 29 year old Center with a history of serious injuries. There's no way a sim basketball game should have him rated anywhere near where he is now in 3 seasons. See Dalembert's progression from 2k12 to 2k15. Dalembert is a complete non factor in real life now.

There's an important distinction that needs to be considered though. Yes Dalembert is an ineffective, 33 year old center. But, despite him being downgraded just this morning, he remains 74 overall in 2k. If his career had progressed like this game dictates, he would be about a 64 right now, if not a 60.

In this game, the only way a 33 year old center is 74 overall is if he had peaked at like 87 overall and wasn't super injury prone. Regression needs to happen, but unless players are constantly injured there is no reason it needs to be so consistent or sharp.

For what it's worth, in my franchise Bogut at age 33 was somewhere between 60-64 overall. Nowhere near being considered for a veteran's minimum or 15th spot, and nowhere near Dalembert now.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

There's an important distinction that needs to be considered though. Yes Dalembert is an ineffective, 33 year old center. But, despite him being downgraded just this morning, he remains 74 overall in 2k. If his career had progressed like this game dictates, he would be about a 64 right now, if not a 60.

In this game, the only way a 33 year old center is 74 overall is if he had peaked at like 87 overall and wasn't super injury prone. Regression needs to happen, but unless players are constantly injured there is no reason it needs to be so consistent or sharp.

For what it's worth, in my franchise Bogut at age 33 was somewhere between 60-64 overall. Nowhere near being considered for a veteran's minimum or 15th spot, and nowhere near Dalembert now.

I hear you. That's very low. Dalembert is considerably overrated by 2k. Last year in Dallas he was completely ineffective on both ends of the floor and remains equally ineffective this year as well. The only thing keeping him in the NBA is his contract.

64 at age 33 is too low though given the ratings in this game have Ryan Hollins right now at a 73. I'm conducting a test right now in MyLeague. I'll let you know what I find. Also I have created rosters for 2015-2020 so I don't know if that changes the way my seasons play out.