Do players develop based on production?

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I hear you. That's very low. Dalembert is considerably overrated by 2k. Last year in Dallas he was completely ineffective on both ends of the floor and remains equally ineffective this year as well. The only thing keeping him in the NBA is his contract.

64 at age 33 is too low though given the ratings in this game have Ryan Hollins right now at a 73. I'm conducting a test right now in MyLeague. I'll let you know what I find. Also I have created rosters for 2015-2020 so I don't know if that changes the way my seasons play out.

Oh, talking about how players should be rated is an entirely different story

Considering the current ratings system, I just want ratings and age distribution to remain consistent throughout a franchise and that's nowhere near the case currently. That's ultimately why I'm bothered by this.

Edit: I actually just finished another season (lost game 7 of the finals to LeBron's Cavs, due in part to a blown dunk I posted in another thread ) and a bunch of players retired, all in the 60s except for two. Chris Paul and Carmelo were the exceptions, making the Hall of Fame. They were both 70 overall...meaning two Hall of Fame players finished their careers as nightly inactives. They were 35 and 36 (year 2020).

I'm interested to see what you can come up with in your tests.

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I'm a broken record at this point...but whatever. As long as this affects my franchise experience it's going to be a broken record in bothering me



This screen is pretty much identical to every offseason; 3-4 overall decreases from everyone regressing. Anthony Bennett is interesting because he peaked at 78 overall at the age of 25, 2 seasons ago (realistic). In a year, at age 28, he will be a nightly inactive (unrealistic).

According to 2k ratings, 71-79 overall is the range for weak starters/role players in the NBA. Above that range are starters (80 is pretty much an average starter), below it are nightly inactives. The current regression means that in 2-3 seasons players go from average/weak starters to nightly inactives. This is why it needs to be a much more gradual curve.

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Thinks man do you have any ideas to added to this?

The only idea that made sense was to add another slider for regression

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

The only idea that made sense was to add another slider for regression

Yeah they need to do that next year

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I'm a broken record at this point...but whatever. As long as this affects my franchise experience it's going to be a broken record in bothering me



This screen is pretty much identical to every offseason; 3-4 overall decreases from everyone regressing. Anthony Bennett is interesting because he peaked at 78 overall at the age of 25, 2 seasons ago (realistic). In a year, at age 28, he will be a nightly inactive (unrealistic).

According to 2k ratings, 71-79 overall is the range for weak starters/role players in the NBA. Above that range are starters (80 is pretty much an average starter), below it are nightly inactives. The current regression means that in 2-3 seasons players go from average/weak starters to nightly inactives. This is why it needs to be a much more gradual curve.

This just shows how bad this really is. 7 guys at 30 or younger and 5 of the 7 got worse witch is already not realistic and 4 of the 5 got worse by at least 3 points

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

When it comes to whats realistic and whats not , I don't think any of us can say that without some real world evidence. So I would want 2K to do some research into this before doing anything on a whim

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

When it comes to whats realistic and whats not , I don't think any of us can say that without some real world evidence. So I would want 2K to do some research into this before doing anything on a whim

I've been playing 2k for well over a decade...I'd say that's been plenty of time for them to do some research

Anyways, real world evidence has luckily been posted in this thread already. But ultimately, we're comparing the progression system to 2k's own rating system. We have the age distribution in the current rosters to go off of, and we can even look at past games to get a general idea.

I'm not too picky with the realism, but I can definitely say when things are not realistic. I can say what we're currently looking at is unrealistic, the age distribution doesn't match what we see in real life.

Regardless, the only thing that can/should be done on a whim would be changing the shooting/iq regression, as that was supposed to be in 2k15 anyways. I actually think it would fix things, too.

[TheRealHST]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I've been playing 2k for well over a decade...I'd say that's been plenty of time for them to do some research



Anyways, real world evidence has luckily been posted in this thread already. But ultimately, we're comparing the progression system to 2k's own rating system. We have the age distribution in the current rosters to go off of, and we can even look at past games to get a general idea.



I'm not too picky with the realism, but I can definitely say when things are not realistic. I can say what we're currently looking at is unrealistic, the age distribution doesn't match what we see in real life.



Regardless, the only thing that can/should be done on a whim would be changing the shooting/iq regression, as that was supposed to be in 2k15 anyways. I actually think it would fix things, too.

well majority rules here. So therefore its broken

[joosegoose]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

well majority rules here. So therefore its broken

To an extent, yes, as ultimately the consumers need to be happy for a game to be successful. Though I always side with allowing more customization rather than giving a subset of fans what they want.

Either way, there's plenty of evidence that's been posted that shows work needs to be done. Both real world evidence and comparison to 2k's own ratings system has been shown.

[dwayne12345]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

To an extent, yes, as ultimately the consumers need to be happy for a game to be successful. Though I always side with allowing more customization rather than giving a subset of fans what they want.

Either way, there's plenty of evidence that's been posted that shows work needs to be done. Both real world evidence and comparison to 2k's own ratings system has been shown.

Figured something out after my test. My example will be Channing Frye. Going into MyLeague Year 3.

Year 2 Channing Frye was rated a 73. His Shot IQ rating was an 80 at the start of the season. During the season I left him to train at his natural style which caused his Shot IQ to increase 2 points by the end of the season to an 82. In the off season Frye dropped 4 points to a 69 overall. However when looking at the specific ratings that dropped it was physicals like speed, quickness, lateral, shot blocking, dunk, vertical. I looked at his Shot IQ rating and it in fact only dropped a point. It was at 81.

I focused on a few other individual players like Bogut and Pekovic. This leads me to believe that IQ is in fact staying put as long as it matches the player type. Offensive players will retain Shot IQ. Defensive players will retain Low Post or On Ball Defense IQ.

The thing that's causing ratings to drop so drastically is that 2k's rating formula seems to favor athleticism greatly when it comes to overall rating.

I went to Andre Iguodola in roster creator to test this theory. I dropped all of his athleticism based stats 10 points. That would be Driving and Standing Layup, lateral quickness, blocking, Standing and driving dunk, speed, quickness, vertical and stamina. This takes his overall rating from an 82 to a 79. That's -3 without dropping ANY IQ based ratings or shooting based ratings at all. Which means if a guy is losing 10 points per season after his prime in his athleticism ratings and not losing ANY points in shooting or IQ he is still dropping 3 points.

If you wanted to add in losing the ability to finish around the basket as something you lose with time that would make his overall drop -4 points without touching any IQ based ratings.

My tests will continue in further seasons to see if IQ ratings are indeed dropping on a consistent basis. As of now it seems as though that is not the case.

[darkknightrises]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Figured something out after my test. My example will be Channing Frye. Going into MyLeague Year 3.

Year 2 Channing Frye was rated a 73. His Shot IQ rating was an 80 at the start of the season. During the season I left him to train at his natural style which caused his Shot IQ to increase 2 points by the end of the season to an 82. In the off season Frye dropped 4 points to a 69 overall. However when looking at the specific ratings that dropped it was physicals like speed, quickness, lateral, shot blocking, dunk, vertical. I looked at his Shot IQ rating and it in fact only dropped a point. It was at 81.

I focused on a few other individual players like Bogut and Pekovic. This leads me to believe that IQ is in fact staying put as long as it matches the player type. Offensive players will retain Shot IQ. Defensive players will retain Low Post or On Ball Defense IQ.

The thing that's causing ratings to drop so drastically is that 2k's rating formula seems to favor athleticism greatly when it comes to overall rating.

I went to Andre Iguodola in roster creator to test this theory. I dropped all of his athleticism based stats 10 points. That would be Driving and Standing Layup, lateral quickness, blocking, Standing and driving dunk, speed, quickness, vertical and stamina. This takes his overall rating from an 82 to a 79. That's -3 without dropping ANY IQ based ratings or shooting based ratings at all. Which means if a guy is losing 10 points per season after his prime in his athleticism ratings and not losing ANY points in shooting or IQ he is still dropping 3 points.

If you wanted to add in losing the ability to finish around the basket as something you lose with time that would make his overall drop -4 points without touching any IQ based ratings.

My tests will continue in further seasons to see if IQ ratings are indeed dropping on a consistent basis. As of now it seems as though that is not the case.

mmm that is interesting to hear. I do think that athleticism is a big thing so I don't have a problem with that being a big key for over all skill. Most guys in the NBA are really athletic and even if you have a good jump shoot if you are not athletic at all it is going to be hard to have to score all your points on jump shoots with out ever getting some easy baskets on drives to the basket. Now at the same time you can be really good even if you are not that athletic like a Zack Randof type player.


With all that said though losing 10 points in all those ratings you where talking about is 10 different ratings. Doesn't losing 10 points in 10 different ratings in 1 season kind of semed like a lot to lose in athleticism in just 1 season? Also guys who are like 26 should not be getting less athletic any way. Some thing I would like to see is for some guys to gain points in some things to kind of make up for getting less athletic has they get older. Think of a guy like Kobe for example. When he was younger he was more of a driver but didn't have has good has a jump shoot has he dose now. Has he got less athletic he improved his jump shoot and his footwork. Look at a guy like James to he has started to shoot more jump shoots then he used to yet he hasn't gotten worse has his jump shoot is way better then it used to be. Where a guy like Howard scores on basically nothing but dunks and athletic type of plays has no post moves. So I could see him droping a lot by the time he is like 30 in just a few years.

[xfjdsu]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Age, production, training and potential rating. Also as they progress one an area of expertise others decline since there was no time spent for training.

[dfjfyuj]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Pretty much this, terrible progression system, terrible injury system, gameplans that don't work if you have 15 players on your roster.

[mullhouse]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

Not sure if this works but what about doing 32 team control and manually editing ratings of guys? Would be a pain but might be a temporary fix

[pacers101]

Re: Do players develop based on production?

I have set out my experiences in detail in the MyLeague thread. Regression happens too early for far too many players (early regression for some players would be fine, but it seems to affect nearly everyone).


One further point to add would be that the CPU doesn't plan for the regressions of these players the same way I can. For example I limit contract offers to all players over the age of 26 to 1 year deals only. So even with self restraint for roster building (trades, FA etc) the only way I could possibly be on a level playing field with the CPU is if I offer out multi-year deals to veterans, who I know with near certainty will then regress by approx 4 OVR points per season. There is self restraint but that is surely a step too far!!


So please add me to the list of people that are finding that the regression system is harming their MyLeague experience, and would like this to be urgently sorted if at all possible.