NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

**swac07** · 09-10-2015, 05:54 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Originally posted by swac07

Sent from my Illudium Q-36 Space Modulator using Tapatalk

23 could you add Meeks to the master list

**Real2KInsider** · 09-10-2015, 06:51 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshot Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner & Cameron Payne

Originally posted by vannwolfhawk

Im going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. I think bigs were more skilled around the hoop and better defenders back in 80's and 90's although not as athletic obviously. There more PF today than centers. There was a lot of depth with centers back in the day. Even guys like let's say a Ric Smits, Kevin Willis, Bill Laimbeer would translate just fine in today's NBA.

I have discussed an analyzed this this pretty extensively (including on the Sim Hangouts where Scott and Gonzo love their nostalgia goggles).

What people often forget is that beyond the top players, centers in the 80s/90s were BBQ Chicken (which made things easier for the guys who could play). Hakeem used to joke with Kenny Smith that he only had to play 5 times a year while Kenny had to play every single night.

Let's re-wind 20 years. Jordan was out of the league, Robinson won MVP, and Hakeem/Shaq matched in the Finals right after Hakeem/Ewing the previous year. The league even shortened the 3pt line, making centers nigh impossible to double (manufacturing a cinderella run for the Rockets that has never been replicated in any era of NBA history). This was the pinnacle of the dominant center.

EAST
Magic (57): Shaquille O'Neal (28.6 PER), Tree Rollins (7.0 PER)
Knicks (55): Patrick Ewing (21.9 PER), Herb Williams (7.7 PER)
Pacers (52): Rik Smits (19.5 PER), LaSalle Thompson (6.8 PER)
Hornets (50): Alonzo Mourning (20.1 PER), Robert Parish (10.1 PER)
Bulls (47): Will Perdue (16.3 PER), Luc Longley (12.3 PER), Bill Wennington (11.6 PER)
Cavaliers (43): Tyrone Hill (16.8 PER), Michael Cage (13.5 PER)
Hawks (42): Andrew Lang (13.1 PER), Jon Koncak (9.5 PER)
Celtics (35): Eric Montross (12.1 PER), Pervis Ellison (13.3 PER)
Bucks (34): Alton Lister (10.2 PER), Eric Mobley (14.2 PER)
Heat (32): John Salley (11.4 PER), Matt Geiger (12.9 PER)
Nets (30): Benoit Benjamin (13.9 PER), Dwayne Schintzius (6.2 PER)
Pistons (28): Mark West (12.8 PER), Oliver Miller (16.9 PER)
Sixers (24): Shawn Bradley (14.8 PER), Derrick Alston (11.6 PER)
Bullets (21): Gheorghe Muresan (17.4 PER), Kevin Duckworth (9.9 PER)

Out east we can see pretty see that the quality of your big-man was almost directly relative to your team's success - and that most teams simply didn't have one.

WEST
Spurs (62): David Robinson (29.1 PER)
Jazz (60): Felton Spencer (12.3 PER), James Donaldson (7.9 PER)
Suns (59): Joe Kleine (9.8 PER), Danny Schayes (13.2 PER)
Sonics (57): Sam Perkins (16.2 PER), Ervin Johnson (9.6 PER)
Lakers (48): Vlade Divac (20.5 PER), Sam Bowie (10.4 PER)
Rockets (47): Hakeem Olajuwon (26.0 PER)
Blazers (44): Chris Dudley (10.9 PER)
Nuggets (41): Dikembe Mutombo (17.0 PER), Bison Dele (13.9 PER)
Kings (39): Olden Polynice (14.7 PER), Duane Causwell (11.4 PER)
Mavericks (36): Lorenzo Williams (10.3 PER), Roy Tarpley (17.8 PER)
Warriors (26): Rony Seikaly (12.7 PER), Cliff Rozier (11.5 PER), Victor Alexander (12.8 PER)
Wolves (21): Sean Rooks (12.6 PER), Greg Foster (10.3 PER)
Clippers (17): Tony Massenburg (11.7 PER), Eric Riley (14.7 PER)

The west ran more to compensate for it's lack of Cs. It is worth noting that Malone and Barkley were the first great PFs and the beginning of a league-wide transition.

ANECDOTES
Perhaps I remember just how many bad centers there were because I collected basketball cards in the mid-90s. This exercise was a trip down memory lane in that regard.

The reason to use PER is it's measuring production relative to the rest of the league, where 15.0 is the standardized league average. Only two backup centers in the entire league had a PER > 15 (and we know what happened to Tarpley after this season).

Robinson, Hakeem, and Shaq played so many minutes due to their dominance that they effectively didn't even have backups. Chris Dudley on the other hand didn't have a true backup because the Blazers would slide Buck Williams from PF to C and Cliff Robinson from SF to PF.

BBRef lists P.J. Brown as a C for the Nets but in actuality he was their starting SF next to Derrick Coleman and Benoit Benjamin. That sums up 90s-era ball in a nutshell. Teams often employed double-PF lineups in what is surely the antithesis to modern NBA ball (big ball, killing your own spacing for a marginal advantage on the boards). Teams NEVER do that now, and often now employ double-SF lineups (made popular by SVG w/ Turkoglu/Lewis in Orlando).

Yinka Dare was drafted 14th overall and played in only 1 game due to how big a project he was. Dare had a 6.2 PER in his four year career and is regarded by some as the worst NBA player of all-time (certainly among those drafted 14th overall). Teams drafted bust centers in the first round with high frequency searching for "the next big thing" which was really akin to just throwing **** at the wall. Drafting stiffs is a practice long-since abandoned as teams properly evaluate big men and what sort of role they should be playing.

How would you suggest 2k should rate and evaluate todays big man? To make sure ratings are comparable to all positions?

Well, to start off, there's a reason the NBA fell away from this big-centric era. A player who changed the NBA landscape forever. Michael Jordan. People often talk about his 6 championships but rarely mention that he won them without a quality center in an otherwise center dominated era.

How could we be more like Mike? Well, for starters, start running your post ups through players who were great passers and ball handlers (limiting turnovers), who could also hit their FTs. Jordan was effectively a center without any of the weaknesses. Teams began to optimize and value their possessions using a dirty word called "analytics".

Patrick Ewing was a great center, but due to his offensive weaknesses he was never able to crack that elite tier. Building an offense around a player that can't dominate is and was folly... and this is Ewing we're talking about, a HoFer, not a scrub. Teams routinely gave post touches to bigs who weren't any good (even though they were often guarded by foul-prone players who likewise weren't very good).

All of the above is why teams began to favor PFs for their post play. Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, even Chris Webber and Elton Brand came along and the post center went the way of the dinosaur.

-------

Now, as far as today's NBA, it is crucial for centers to operate on both ends of the pick and roll, which means footwork, hands, and quickness. Stiffs need not apply. Joakim Noah is a prime example of this.

Bill Russell wasn't an offensive focal point, yet he still lead his team to 11 championships doing all of this. Despite that, Wilt had sexy numbers and influenced the next 30 years of play. Yet there is no arguing which player was more successful in a team scheme (and if anything, I think I've shown modern centers are significantly more effective than what they did on average 20 years ago). NBA centers may not be "super stars" posting gaudy numbers as featured offensive players, but it was only a decade ago we were reading blurbs like "former all-star Jamaal Magloire, now playing for his 5th team".

**Real2KInsider** · 09-10-2015, 07:27 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Originally posted by stillfeelme

A large amount of centers with their lack of post scoring have mainly become space creators with pick and rolls and lob catchers. I would actually expect centers to be lower rated compared to greats for this reason alone.

Those players also played in a different rules era. What people often ignore when getting all wistful about the 80s/90s is that zone defenses were illegal, which made one-on-one play much more appealing. The zone's return as well as other rules changes (no more Shaq clearouts) put a major damper on post play.

OVR formula for the center position should subsequently be based on the current NBA, the one that actually exists. The primary function of the rating is to guide the AI with making personnel decisions and approximating player value. If the value is not replicating the value of the modern PF/C, then it is a hindrance to the game's modes, rather than an asset. There is a significant disconnect in player value if effective big men like Tyler Zeller or David Lee have an OVR only slightly better than NBA rookie guards.

Here's a fun example of why the OVR is so jacked

SF/PF/C value "Post Control" at a 30:1 OVR ratio.
PG/SG value it > 74:1 (meaning you can go 25-99 w/o seeing an OVR increase).

Ever wonder why your favorite 3 & D wing has a poor rating?
Conversely, take away Kobe/Wade/Jordan's post game and it wouldn't limit them as players?

The OVR formulas are archaic and re-adjusting a couple attribute scales is only making the problem worse, not better.

**Jrocc23** · 09-10-2015, 07:54 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Jodie Meeks screen is one of the best screens I've seen.

And I see y'all got him started again

**BluFu** · 09-10-2015, 08:16 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshot Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner & Cameron Payne

Originally posted by Rashidi

SF formula is similar to SG and nothing like PF/C

But sure try to correct me on something you don't know anything about

Originally posted by Rashidi

SF/PF/C value "Post Control" at a 30:1 OVR ratio.
PG/SG value it > 74:1 (meaning you can go 25-99 w/o seeing an OVR increase).

Of course, only Rashidi can partake in ratings discussions.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-10-2015, 08:17 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshot Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner & Cameron Payne

Originally posted by Nevertheles109

Rashidi, I appreciate the valuable information you provide to OS. Nevertheless, the reason your messages aren't heard as clearly as they are written is due to your snobbish/arrogant remarks when they are unnecessary. The bolded above is a clear example man.

You attracts bees with honey, not vinegar.

Attracting bees has never been my intention, and never will be.

I do, however, have a strong aversion to "BS" which is why I'll make an off-hand comment to here and there, to an individual, when warranted.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-10-2015, 08:19 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshot Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner & Cameron Payne

^Case in point

Originally posted by BluFu

Of course, only Rashidi can partake in ratings discussions.

It's one attribute. Shall we compare the other 40?

There is a wee bit more to "partaking in discussion" than actively trolling or purporting fallacy.

**Vni** · 09-10-2015, 08:41 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

I like the dynamic Rashidi brings to a ratings discussion. Keep it up.

**vtcrb** · 09-10-2015, 08:41 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Screenshot Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner & Cameron Payne

Originally posted by Rashidi

SF formula is similar to SG and nothing like PF/C

But sure try to correct me on something you don't know anything about

PLEASE post the Formula that 2k(not You) uses in the game, as you seem to have inside Knowledge. Thank You.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-11-2015, 06:28 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

BOLD if center either
A. Lead his team in PER
B. Had 15+ PER off the bench

2015 Centers

EAST
Hawks (60): Al Horford (21.4 PER), Pero Antic (9.5 PER)
*Cavaliers (53): Timofey Mozgov (18.7 PER), Anderson Varejao (17.7 PER), Kendrick Perkins (4.7 PER)
**Bulls (50): Pau Gasol (22.7 PER)
Raptors (49): Jonas Valanciunas (20.6 PER), Tyler Hansbrough (13.3 PER)
Bucks (41): Zaza Pachulia (15.6 PER), John Henson (18.0 PER), Miles Plumlee (13.4 PER)
Celtics (40): Tyler Zeller (18.9 PER), Kelly Olynyk (15.9 PER)
Nets (38): Brook Lopez (22.7 PER), Mason Plumlee (18.0 PER)
Pacers (38): Roy Hibbert (15.4 PER), Ian Mahinmi (10.8 PER)
Heat (37): Hassan Whiteside (26.2 PER), Chris Andersen (16.1 PER)
Hornets (33): Al Jefferson (19.7 PER), Bismack Biyombo (15.2 PER)
Pistons (32): Andre Drummond (21.4 PER), Joel Anthony (14.7 PER)
Magic (25): Nikola Vucevic (21.5 PER), DeWayne Dedmon (13.3 PER)
Sixers (18): Nerlens Noel (15.0 PER), Henry Sims (14.5 PER)
Knicks (17): Jason Smith (12.0 PER), Cole Aldrich (18.1 PER)

WEST
Warriors (67): Andrew Bogut (15.8 PER), Marreese Speights (19.5 PER), Festus Ezeli (16.2 PER)
Rockets (56): Dwight Howard (19.2 PER), Joey Dorsey (11.1 PER)
Clippers (56): DeAndre Jordan (21.0 PER), Spencer Hawes (9.8 PER)
Grizzlies (55): Marc Gasol (21.7 PER), Kosta Koufos (14.2 PER)
Spurs (55): Tiago Splitter (18.9 PER), Aron Baynes (15.9 PER)
Blazers (51): Robin Lopez (16.2 PER), Chris Kaman (17.3 PER), Meyers Leonard (14.8 PER)
***Mavericks (50): Tyson Chandler (20.1 PER), Amare Stoudemire (22.3 PER)
Pelicans (45): Omer Asik (15.5 PER), Alexis Ajinca (19.9 PER)
****Thunder (45): Steven Adams (14.1 PER), Enes Kanter (24.9 PER)
*****Suns (39): Alex Len (13.5 PER), Brandan Wright (17.8 PER)
Jazz (38): Rudy Gobert (21.6 PER)
Nuggets (30): Jusuf Nurkic (14.8 PER), J.J. Hickson (14.3 PER)
Kings (29): DeMarcus Cousins (25.2 PER), Ryan Holliins (13.1 PER)
Lakers (21): Ed Davis (20.0 PER), Robert Sacre (10.9 PER)
Wolves (16): Nikola Pekovic (16.6 PER), Gorgui Dieng (17.2 PER)

*Mozgov's season PER was 16.6 PER. Perkins' season PER was 7.0. Varejao was technically never a backup, though he will be this coming season.

**Pau guarded centers and was guarded by the center. He was the center (as he often was for the Lakers the last 5 years). Noah chased around fours (and this switch also reflected in their rebound numbers) which contributed to his subpar year. It is worth noting that Hoiberg plans on using Noah as a backup center which speaks further volumes about the quality of the position today.

***Amare's season PER was 20.3.

****Kanter's season PER was 20.3.

*****Wright's season PER was 20.4.

Despite the lack of top-line stars I don't think one can doubt looking at the numbers that the center position is significantly healthier than it was 20 years ago. Here's 95 again by comparison.

1995 EAST
Magic (57): Shaquille O'Neal (28.6 PER), Tree Rollins (7.0 PER)
Knicks (55): Patrick Ewing (21.9 PER), Herb Williams (7.7 PER)
Pacers (52): Rik Smits (19.5 PER), LaSalle Thompson (6.8 PER)
Hornets (50): Alonzo Mourning (20.1 PER), Robert Parish (10.1 PER)
Bulls (47): Will Perdue (16.3 PER), Luc Longley (12.3 PER), Bill Wennington (11.6 PER)
Cavaliers (43): Tyrone Hill (16.8 PER), Michael Cage (13.5 PER)
Hawks (42): Andrew Lang (13.1 PER), Jon Koncak (9.5 PER)
Celtics (35): Eric Montross (12.1 PER), Pervis Ellison (13.3 PER)
Bucks (34): Alton Lister (10.2 PER), Eric Mobley (14.2 PER)
Heat (32): John Salley (11.4 PER), Matt Geiger (12.9 PER)
Nets (30): Benoit Benjamin (13.9 PER), Dwayne Schintzius (6.2 PER)
Pistons (28): Mark West (12.8 PER), Oliver Miller (16.9 PER)
Sixers (24): Shawn Bradley (14.8 PER), Derrick Alston (11.6 PER)
Bullets (21): Gheorghe Muresan (17.4 PER), Kevin Duckworth (9.9 PER)

1995 WEST
Spurs (62): David Robinson (29.1 PER)
Jazz (60): Felton Spencer (12.3 PER), James Donaldson (7.9 PER)
Suns (59): Joe Kleine (9.8 PER), Danny Schayes (13.2 PER)
Sonics (57): Sam Perkins (16.2 PER), Ervin Johnson (9.6 PER)
Lakers (48): Vlade Divac (20.5 PER), Sam Bowie (10.4 PER)
Rockets (47): Hakeem Olajuwon (26.0 PER)
Blazers (44): Chris Dudley (10.9 PER)
Nuggets (41): Dikembe Mutombo (17.0 PER), Bison Dele (13.9 PER)
Kings (39): Olden Polynice (14.7 PER), Duane Causwell (11.4 PER)
Mavericks (36): Lorenzo Williams (10.3 PER), Roy Tarpley (17.8 PER)
Warriors (26): Rony Seikaly (12.7 PER), Cliff Rozier (11.5 PER), Victor Alexander (12.8 PER)
Wolves (21): Sean Rooks (12.6 PER), Greg Foster (10.3 PER)
Clippers (17): Tony Massenburg (11.7 PER), Eric Riley (14.7 PER)

2015: 13 centers lead team, 14 quality backups, 40 centers > 15
1995: 6 centers lead team, 2 quality backups, 14 centers > 15

It's not close. Remember again that PER is relative to the rest of the league. Even though the traditional back to the basket center is gone, centers have never been more effective than they are now. It is arguably the best/deepest position in the league after PG (in fact, only four starters in the league registered a PER under 15 - the 95 west alone has 8 starters under 15).

I even think that the superstar factor compared to the 90s (3 centers > 25 PER versus 1 today) is over-blown as Anthony Davis will eventually play center full-time, while Tim Duncan bounces back and forth between PF and C every season (I opted to consider him a PF this season).

I also think players like Cousins and the Gasols or even Al Jefferson would dominate an era that was conducive to one-on-one play. The notion that post play is dead and that nobody can do it anymore isn't particularly well-founded. There simply isn't a good reason for a non-elite to stagnate the offense.

**Trackball** · 09-11-2015, 06:36 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Originally posted by Rashidi

centers have never been more effective than they are now. It is arguably the best/deepest position in the league after PG

10char

**8KB24** · 09-11-2015, 06:52 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Because using only PER is the right way to go regarding player evaluation. I always respect what Rashidi has to say but this is...idk man

**Real2KInsider** · 09-11-2015, 07:56 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Originally posted by 8KB24

Because using only PER is the right way to go regarding player evaluation. I always respect what Rashidi has to say but this is...idk man

Would you care to use other means to discuss the skill/ability/effectiveness of Jon Koncak versus Kosta Koufos in an expeditious manner?

**Real2KInsider** · 09-11-2015, 08:55 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Originally posted by Trackball

10char

2000 Centers - Just 5 years after 95 (and well before the defensive rule changes of this era).

2000 EAST
Pacers (56): Rik Smits (17.3), Sam Perkins (12.1)
Heat (52): Alonzo Mourning (25.8), Otis Thorpe (11.1)
Knicks (50): Patrick Ewing (16.9), Marcus Camby (19.0)
Hornets (49): Elden Campbell (14.6), Brad Miller (18.9)
Sixers (49): Theo Ratliff (16.7), Matt Geiger (13.9)
Raptors (45): Antonio Davis (15.1), Kevin Willis (12.3)
Pistons (42): Christian Laettner (14.8), Mikki Moore (19.6)
Bucks (42): Ervin Johnson (12.7), Scott Williams (15.6)
Magic (41): John Amaechi (13.2), Michael Doleac (13.3)
Celtics (35): Vitaly Potapenko (13.8), Tony Battie (15.1)
Cavaliers (32): Mark Bryant (8.9), Andrew DeClercq (11.4)
Nets (31): Jim McIlvaine (10.0)
Wizards (29): Jahidi White (15.7), Issac Austin (10.2)
Hawks (28): Dikembe Mutombo (19.4), Lorenzen Wright (13.9)
Bulls (17): Dickey Simpkins (5.5), Will Perdue (6.6), Chris Anstey (15.1)

2000 WEST
Lakers (67): Shaquille O'Neal (30.6), Travis Knight (9.5)
Blazers (59): Arvydas Sabonis (20.3), Jermaine O'Neal (13.3)
Jazz (55): Olden Polynice (10.4), Greg Ostertag (13.5)
Spurs (53): David Robinson (24.6)
Suns (53): Luc Longley (8.8), Oliver Miller (15.6)
Wolves (50): Rasho Nesterovic (11.0), Dean Garrett (9.0)
Sonics (45): Vin Baker (14.0), Jelani McCoy (13.2)
Kings (44): Vlade Divac (18.0), Scot Pollard (15.8)
Mavericks (40): Shawn Bradley (17.0), Sean Rooks (11.8)
Nuggets (35): Raef LaFrentz (16.3)
Rockets (34): Hakeem Olajuwon (16.7), Kelvin Cato (15.9)
Grizzlies (22): Bryant Reeves (10.6), Cherokee Parks (10.9)
Warriors (19): Adonal Foyle (12.3), Erick Dampier (9.6)
Clippers (15): Michael Olowokandi (10.4), Keith Closs (14.1)

While both leagues were top-heavy, the notable difference between 95 and 00 is that quality backups started popping up. We were introduced to Marcus Camby, a running/dunking center who didn't need to post up to have an impact. Teams would go on to utilize this once unique mold of center.

There was still plenty of trash to go around. Jason Smith (12.0 PER) was the worst starting center in the league last season and there were 8 teams with a starter worse than that in 2000 (nearly 1/3 of the league!).

I do realize it takes more than factual evidence to dispel myths that have been drummed into the heads of sheeple over an extended period of time.

Keep the spit coming.

**Mauer4MVP** · 09-11-2015, 08:55 AM

Re: NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

Originally posted by 8KB24

Because using only PER is the right way to go regarding player evaluation. I always respect what Rashidi has to say but this is...idk man

I think PER is pretty useless as well, but you can just look at the names themselves. In 95, 1-6 would still be 1-6 today most likely.

After that, it's today by a pretty wide margin.

NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

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