Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

[Reggie548]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

One thing we all need to agree on is then taking that ish out of the game. It hinders the whole sim aspect they go for by scripting how the game will play out with the momentum shifts.

[redsox4evur]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

One thing we all need to agree on is then taking that ish out of the game. It hinders the whole sim aspect they go for by scripting how the game will play out with the momentum shifts.

Nope...because there are momentum shifts in the NBA. Taking it out hinders the whole sim aspect of the game.

[Reggie548]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

Momentum shifts in the NBA aren't scripted and cause one team all of a sudden to forget simple basketball knowledge like not leaving a corner 3 specialist open to help down low. Or how open shots all of a sudden don't fall and I'm up by 8, only to have to call 12 timeouts in a row so I don't miss my next wide open layup.

In real basketball there is no certain time this happens, it just does but it isn't the over exaggerated onslaught this game portrays. Hence it needs to be removed. One of the countless flaws you all seem to be content with. 2K must compensate handsomely.

[The 24th Letter]

tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

..........

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

Nope...because there are momentum shifts in the NBA. Taking it out hinders the whole sim aspect of the game.

They shouldn't try to simulate human mental conditions in a video game.

Imagine if the game made good FT shooters miss Fts down the stretch (if you get anything but a perfect release) because in real life they might be shook and maybe have their nerves get the best of them. That just takes the skill of the user out of the equation, and I can guarantee that losing games because of some bad luck won't be fun for most people

[The 24th Letter]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

Nope...because there are momentum shifts in the NBA. Taking it out hinders the whole sim aspect of the game.

Just wanted to chime in and say I agree with you. Hitting shots in one half doesn't entitle you to hitting shots in another. Teams\players get hot in the NBA, and they should do so in NBA 2K. This is why I made the thread about SS\Sim variety earlier in the year. Seemed like there was something in the background arbitrarily stopping guys from getting too hot vs. the CPU...Since the patches there has been a lot more variety in games...

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

You're giving 2k way to much credit. They still handle difficulty by increasing ratings of the CPU players to make them harder to play against, there isn't some life-like AI we're playing against

The comeback cheese people are referring to are the temporary boosts in ratings your team gets when you are on a run. I believe in 2k14 (the last 2k I bought before this years) you could even pause the game and see green arrows showing the increased stats of players on the team with the momentum when you looked at their ratings. Its an attempt at simulating the mental element of basketball where teams on a ru play harder and the opposing team gets demoralized.

This artificial boost makes it easier for the team to score almost everything they take when on a run. Thats the purpose of calling timeouts (to remove this effect), meanwhile the team on the opposite end will miss easy looks and will all get artificially cold. Thats why you sometimes see the CPU call timeouts after you make 1-2 baskets (even if they are up big) because the game recognizes that the momentum is about to shift in your favour and the timeout neutralizes it.

This shot by Curry I took was during a run by the Bulls user, before it, I had been up by 9 and he had tied the game off a run midway through the quarter. Notice how I can somehow miss a wide open perfect release 3 with the best shooter in NBA history? Why? Because the other guy was on a run and I didn't call timeout.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pGYcnNJ2gMo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There is no "comeback code" in the sense that as soon as the game sees someone up 10, the losing team will always comeback. There are however, momentum shifts that cause teams to arbitrarily become hot or cold to force a run. Those are what cause the weird comebacks that people call the comeback code.

First of all, the CPU is suppose to be ramped up on higher difficulties. That's why I never play pass the All-Star level when I play against the CPU. I play on Veteran on COD, but you'll never hear me complain about the difficulty of the CPU. To me, if you play on those higher difficulties, then it should be assumed that you're going to get a challenge.

Second, there are badges that give TEAM boosts when certains conditions are met. Personally, I've never been a fan of badges, because I feel like they cheapen the game; however, I have gotten use to the idea over the years.

Third, you missed the shot, and there was no special code that dedicated the miss. Mike Wang already stated numerous times that perfect releases are not automatic this year. When you missed the shot, it was just bad timing that it happened while the other team was in a middle of run. It is what it is. I'm pretty sure that you had games where you felt like you couldn't miss regardless of the grade given.

Lastly, timeouts do help to "ice or cool off" players, but timeouts shouldn't be thought of as some "solution" to stop swings. It still comes down to the user to make the necessary adjustments to get back or maintain the lead. If you panic, then you deserve to lose the lead. As I stated before, I have played plenty of games where I gotten the lead, because my opponent panicked and started making stupid mistakes due to feeling that fire on their neck. I have kept the lead plenty of times when my opponent went on a run, because I just kept my head in the game and stuck to or changed my gameplan.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

I want to add one more other thing...

I feel the MOMENT I got you pressing the pause button out of frustration or scrambling to call timeouts on almost every possession, then I know I GOT you mentally. At that point, I just go for the knockout blow and try to demoralize you in the process.

It's on you to have the mental toughness to overcome.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

First of all, the CPU is suppose to be ramped up on higher difficulties. That's why I never play pass the All-Star level when I play against the CPU. I play on Veteran on COD, but you'll never hear me complain about the difficulty of the CPU. To me, if you play on those higher difficulties, then it should be assumed that you're going to get a challenge.

Second, there are badges that give TEAM boosts when certains conditions are met. Personally, I've never been a fan of badges, because I feel like they cheapen the game; however, I have gotten use to the idea over the years.

Third, you missed the shot, and there was no special code that dedicated the miss. Mike Wang already stated numerous times that perfect releases are not automatic this year. When you missed the shot, it was just bad timing that it happened while the other team was in a middle of run. It is what it is. I'm pretty sure that you had games where you felt like you couldn't miss regardless of the grade given.

Lastly, timeouts do help to "ice or cool off" players, but timeouts shouldn't be thought of as some "solution" to stop swings. It still comes down to the user to make the necessary adjustments to get back or maintain the lead. If you panic, then you deserve to lose the lead. As I stated before, I have played plenty of games where I gotten the lead, because my opponent panicked and started making stupid mistakes due to feeling that fire on their neck. I have kept the lead plenty of times when my opponent went on a run, because I just kept my head in the game and stuck to or changed my gameplan.

1. I didn't offer my opinion of 2ks strategy on upper difficulty. I refuted the notion that they are using some dynamic AI that reads the player and counters them. When playing on Allstar its very easy to blow out the CPU because they don't have the ratings boosts.

2. Shots misses and makes are based off calculations. It looks at things like player rating, shot fatigue, hotzones, user timing, the type of shot etc. From the video, pretty much everything was in my favour and I still missed. I didn't say there was a dedicated code making me miss (don't know where you read that), I said it was because my team was cold during the run. My entire post was to show that there are mechanisms in the game that influence the momentum outside of just the play of the users. People itt are arguing that leads and runs are entirely in the control of the players, and the game doesn't do anything to affect them.

3. Thanks for the tips? Lol timeouts are used to reset momentum swings and stop runs (just like in real life as y'all like to say). Calling a timeout after your opponent makes back to back 3's with a mediocre shooter after you miss open shots with a good one is probably a good idea. Once the momentum neutralizes following the timeout, the player that was playing better to begin with will pull out ahead again, and that's what usually happens for me.

[Scofield]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The game definitely needs to reflect the momentum swings we see irl and it does a fairly serviceable job. The implementation can be heavy-handed at times though. I think that may be in part because of some of the underlying issues the game has.

For example, player awareness has been a problem since launch (somewhat better since the patch). Well, if you have that already in play once a momentum swing starts the net effect can be a good deal more damaging than it should be. When it comes to many of these things it's not the "what" it's almost always the "how".

[ViolenceFight]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The game definitely needs to reflect the momentum swings we see irl and it does a fairly serviceable job. The implementation can be heavy-handed at times though. I think that may be in part because of some of the underlying issues the game has.

For example, player awareness has been a problem since launch (somewhat better since the patch). Well, if you have that already in play once a momentum swing starts the net effect can be a good deal more damaging than it should be. When it comes to many of these things it's not the "what" it's almost always the "how".

It always comes down to the "how", and how you personally handle it.

The key to all games is mentality. As Ksutton said, if you're frustrated and demoralized, you're already set up for the knockout punch.

Calm and collected will help you come back. The frustration is worse In career, since your team sometimes just does dumb things.

A lot of people try to answer back by trying to do too much. The thought process should be: "Get points on the board". It should never be, "I'm down X, I need threes". It should be "Alright, focus on getting a stop and a quality look at the other end".

The absolute worst thing you can do, and this goes for any game, is get drawn into an opponents pace and rhythm. Don't try to poster Dwight Howard because he got an alley at the other rim. Don't force stuff. Execute your brand/playstyle. Don't change your pace because of the opponent, get them to change their pace to match yours.

For momentum it really just takes 3 solid plays. Less if there's a crazy highlight, but usually just a few possessions of solid offense will swing it the other way or balance it.

[Caelumfang]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

My argument is that there's nothing to look for which implies that there was a "switch" flipped where there's going to be a swing.

Just give credit where credit is due. The other team adjusted, and now it's time for you to adjust to get back or maintain the lead.

I have stopped plenty of runs by adjusting my approach to the game. I'll have a 12 point lead, they'll get it to 7-5 point lead, I adjust, then I get the lead back up. I have erased leads by taking away what gave them leads...except for that dang Steph Curry. He's just a handful in general.

What you call 'adjustment', I call 'the same thing I've been seeing in the game for years.' There's always been ways to tell when the momentum is about to swing. I'd say about 95% of it is through user error, the other 5% is '**** happens.' Either way, if you're paying attention and have been playing for years, you know the signs. It's up to the user to know how to deal with it. I have the solutions that work for me, and they work pretty damn well. Can't say the same for others.

[QNo]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

I feel like a lot of posters in this thread focus on only one or two of the variables that have an influence on runs. This leads to everybody thinking that they're clearly right, when they're only taking part in a subsection of the debate. The following are some of the variables that can influence runs. The first 4 are obviously part of the game, while the last 2 are debatable. Let me know if you can think of any others, as it helps focus our discussion.


1) User Performance: The user may play worse when his opponent is on a run. They may also become lazy when they're up a lot, thus giving their opponents an advantage. This is clearly part of the game and indisputably something that can have an effect on runs.

2) Random distribution of shots: One may play the same when on a bad run, but might get bad luck of the draw for a period of time. Bracketing other variables, if a corner 3 with a corner specialist has a 50% chance of going in, 25% of the time you will miss to consecutive ones. Half the time you'll either make 2 in a row or miss 2 in a row, with 6 points in 2 possessions obviously being a huge swing. This is also obviously part of the game.

3) Players getting hot/cold: This is signified by red and blue rings around players. It's not obvious exactly how and when players go cold (except some instances, like getting your shot blocked), but it's obviously part of the game. It's also clear that this can have an effect on how runs play out.

4) Badges: Some personality badges, such as Heart and Soul, Closer, Alpha/Beta Dog, Mentor, Fierce Competitor seem like they might have direct effects on runs, too. When things get out of hand, Draymond Green rallies his team together. Beta Dogs step up when the Alpha Dog doesn't, Alpha Dogs step it up when the whole team is playing poorly. Microwave makes KD go hot quickly which can be a game-changer. A team that has a lot of guys with such badges is more likely to go on a run and come back. This is thus especially true for top teams and might be part of the long-held reason for why the community thinks that top-teams have a distinct advantage when down and are scripted to come back. Clearly, badges play a role in runs and comebacks.

5) 'Comeback Code': The idea is that 2k has scripted the game in such a way that they are determined to be close. Since devs have denied this multiple times we should probably assume that there is indeed no such code.

6) 'Momentum Code': However, there might still be 'momentum code'. Something like getting a steal leading to a dunk when your team is down a lot may give you a temporary boost. This is really hard to evaluate without a dev chiming in, since a lot of other variables (such as badges) are not well-explained at all. But it seems fair to assume that there is such code, since czar recently stated that there is code that makes it so that calling a timeout will help you stop a run. Though one can also argue that calling a timeout has an effect on some of the other variables mentioned, such as cooling players down (if they dont have the Unfazed badge, of course).



I think that focusing the debate on these individual variables will only help it. A lot of the current discussion is simply too murky and doesn't help to clarify the issues at stake. We should try to identify the importance of each of these variables. This is difficult to do since they may be different from user to user. If someone rages quickly, that might be more important than the game mechanics. For the Buddha that may not be a factor at all.

It is also important that we all acknowledge that there is more than one variable at play, e.g. it is not only the comeback code or the 2k rage that makes runs happen. Such comments are too narrowly focused to help sharpening our understanding of how comebacks work in 2k. It seems to me to very hard to deny that 1)-4) all play part in comebacks.


My personal intuition is that there are certain plays that cause momentum shifts and that this is often exacerbated when a team has lots of guys with good badges on them. This can lead to a chain reaction, causing one to make almost every shot and get defensive stops. I see weird runs more in MyTeam than in PlayNow, so it seems to me that badges are an important factor here. In PlayNow I often stop playing seriously early on, since I like to use tier 2/3 teams. If they quit before the 4th quarter I don't get my bonus wins so I'm happy to leave them in the game. I would never do this in MyTeam where it is much rarer for me to blow out my opponent.

(Yes, the average MyTeam starting 5 is much better and can thus score much more easily, but they also defend much better, so that in itself is not an obvious explanation.)

I really hope that there is no momentum code, let alone comeback code, since the number of variables that has an effect in comebacks is already very large. It seems to me that badges are too effective, thus making comebacks happen more often than not. User skill, randomness, players being hot/cold, and badges should be more than enough variables to emulate the kind of runs we see in the real NBA. Right now runs seem to be triggered too easily.

Testing: Another question that should be part of this debate: How can we test which of these variables are important? Since the devs seem unwilling to share how any of this works, apart from denying the existence of comeback code, testing is the only way for us to gain knowledge on which variables matter, and how much. I watched an excellent video on the importance of the shot meter earlier today. Testing comeback code mechanics won't be as easy, but some of the great minds around here might have some good ideas.

[OG_Almighty]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

in my experience, there is comeback code, but it's not what a lot of people imagine it to be - you control it more than you think, and it works in your favor if you play the game right. here's some tips i wanted to share.

- when you're up by more than five or so, don't shoot threes or call plays for threes. feed the post or utilize the pnr game in a patient way. looks for the good shot and don't throw risky passes. slow down your game, and milk the clock - the game ai rewards you for doing this. get your role players or low scorers in rhythm.

- when you're down or the ai is in the midst of a run, drive hard to basket. be sure to get that layup, dunk or foul drawn (these are the most effective ways of stopping runs in my exp). if you want threes, call plays for them - it gives you a higher chance of making them (not because you're open for the shot, but because the game rewards you for calling plays and calling the right plays at the right time). the game also records all of your inputs... use pass fakes, pump fakes after catches etc. the more you 'try' in the half-court the higher percentage your next shot on that possession becomes. utilize the fast break, but don't force it. if you end up backing out of a fast break, a lot of times there will be a mismatch or just a guy wide open in the half-court, or a late teammate cutting to the basket from the other end of the floor. the game rewards you for good decisions like that.

- use your time outs strategically

just some tips i wanted to throw out there that i've picked up on in the past week or so. it helped cut down on frustration and we all know how the game drives us nuts sometimes. like i said, you're in control of it more than you think.

I assume you're talking about My Team or Off-line modes.

Does anyone think this applies to Pro-Am? I've noticed the same "momentum" in Pro-Am arena games.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: tips for combatting the so called 'comeback code'.

I feel like a lot of posters in this thread focus on only one or two of the variables that have an influence on runs. This leads to everybody thinking that they're clearly right, when they're only taking part in a subsection of the debate. The following are some of the variables that can influence runs. The first 4 are obviously part of the game, while the last 2 are debatable. Let me know if you can think of any others, as it helps focus our discussion.


1) User Performance: The user may play worse when his opponent is on a run. They may also become lazy when they're up a lot, thus giving their opponents an advantage. This is clearly part of the game and indisputably something that can have an effect on runs.

2) Random distribution of shots: One may play the same when on a bad run, but might get bad luck of the draw for a period of time. Bracketing other variables, if a corner 3 with a corner specialist has a 50% chance of going in, 25% of the time you will miss to consecutive ones. Half the time you'll either make 2 in a row or miss 2 in a row, with 6 points in 2 possessions obviously being a huge swing. This is also obviously part of the game.

3) Players getting hot/cold: This is signified by red and blue rings around players. It's not obvious exactly how and when players go cold (except some instances, like getting your shot blocked), but it's obviously part of the game. It's also clear that this can have an effect on how runs play out.

4) Badges: Some personality badges, such as Heart and Soul, Closer, Alpha/Beta Dog, Mentor, Fierce Competitor seem like they might have direct effects on runs, too. When things get out of hand, Draymond Green rallies his team together. Beta Dogs step up when the Alpha Dog doesn't, Alpha Dogs step it up when the whole team is playing poorly. Microwave makes KD go hot quickly which can be a game-changer. A team that has a lot of guys with such badges is more likely to go on a run and come back. This is thus especially true for top teams and might be part of the long-held reason for why the community thinks that top-teams have a distinct advantage when down and are scripted to come back. Clearly, badges play a role in runs and comebacks.

5) 'Comeback Code': The idea is that 2k has scripted the game in such a way that they are determined to be close. Since devs have denied this multiple times we should probably assume that there is indeed no such code.

6) 'Momentum Code': However, there might still be 'momentum code'. Something like getting a steal leading to a dunk when your team is down a lot may give you a temporary boost. This is really hard to evaluate without a dev chiming in, since a lot of other variables (such as badges) are not well-explained at all. But it seems fair to assume that there is such code, since czar recently stated that there is code that makes it so that calling a timeout will help you stop a run. Though one can also argue that calling a timeout has an effect on some of the other variables mentioned, such as cooling players down (if they dont have the Unfazed badge, of course).



I think that focusing the debate on these individual variables will only help it. A lot of the current discussion is simply too murky and doesn't help to clarify the issues at stake. We should try to identify the importance of each of these variables. This is difficult to do since they may be different from user to user. If someone rages quickly, that might be more important than the game mechanics. For the Buddha that may not be a factor at all.

It is also important that we all acknowledge that there is more than one variable at play, e.g. it is not only the comeback code or the 2k rage that makes runs happen. Such comments are too narrowly focused to help sharpening our understanding of how comebacks work in 2k. It seems to me to very hard to deny that 1)-4) all play part in comebacks.


My personal intuition is that there are certain plays that cause momentum shifts and that this is often exacerbated when a team has lots of guys with good badges on them. This can lead to a chain reaction, causing one to make almost every shot and get defensive stops. I see weird runs more in MyTeam than in PlayNow, so it seems to me that badges are an important factor here. In PlayNow I often stop playing seriously early on, since I like to use tier 2/3 teams. If they quit before the 4th quarter I don't get my bonus wins so I'm happy to leave them in the game. I would never do this in MyTeam where it is much rarer for me to blow out my opponent.

(Yes, the average MyTeam starting 5 is much better and can thus score much more easily, but they also defend much better, so that in itself is not an obvious explanation.)

I really hope that there is no momentum code, let alone comeback code, since the number of variables that has an effect in comebacks is already very large. It seems to me that badges are too effective, thus making comebacks happen more often than not. User skill, randomness, players being hot/cold, and badges should be more than enough variables to emulate the kind of runs we see in the real NBA. Right now runs seem to be triggered too easily.

Testing: Another question that should be part of this debate: How can we test which of these variables are important? Since the devs seem unwilling to share how any of this works, apart from denying the existence of comeback code, testing is the only way for us to gain knowledge on which variables matter, and how much. I watched an excellent video on the importance of the shot meter earlier today. Testing comeback code mechanics won't be as easy, but some of the great minds around here might have some good ideas.

Thank you!