Hyperbole in ratings...

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Remove overall rating completely from the game, it's what ruins the game for majority of people. Best case scenario would be to give players some type of grades for each game segment, for example you have LeBron James driving layup at A while you got on other side Tristan Thompson driving layup at C- ; without any numerical attributes just grades, without overall, make players height and weight matter, how the hell can 6'7'' wing who weighs 250 lbs be faster than 6'7'' wing who weighs 220 lbs ?

Implement full realtime physics into game, collision system, rim, ball, audience, referees, everything in arena should be made to comply with realtime physics even dudes that sell food in stands. Animations should be removed completely also because currently game is too heavy on animations, from collision animations to ball striping animations everything seems scripted and plastic. Instead of that they should make game rely on physics so if 2 players collide with each other result of that should be player A height + weight against player B height + weight + the force and speed of collision and then you got final result of that clash, that would be most realistic scenario for any sports game, i'm always up for some random moments in the game.

2K doesn't offer many random/nonpredictable outcomes, i know there aren't games that i could possibly see DeAndre Jordan/Brandon Knight posterizations or from 2 days ago Alec Burks posterization of Jon Leuer because current engine offers xy amount of animations and counteranimations and when you put those numbers that's the number of animations you can see in this game and that is very predictable or dull after 100+ played games, instead of that they should make game engine from zero, implement physics engine for everything from ball, jerseys, refs, cheerleaders, rim, stanchion (why not make shot clock go down after some really powerful slams) all the way to the crowd.

GTA V is one of these next gen games that offer quick peek at physics engine, you never fall same way, there is difference if you fall from 10 ft or 5 ft, there is difference if you hit concrete from wood..and the list goes on, that's the definition of unpredictable gameplay, in current state game rely too much on ratings, animations and that always creates predictable outcomes for us players.

With all due respect I don't think you really have any idea what goes into designing a basketball video game as there is about 20 years you would like to flush down the toilet to start from scratch with an engine/idea that has proven not to work.

GTA looks pretty but an engine based off it would make for an awful, unbalanced basketball game. Jumping over cars and shooting people where all playable characters have the same skill level is one thing. Confining those characters to a court with a strict set of rules & capabilities is quite another. Ratings and animations are inherently necessary.

Predictable outcomes are good. This is a skill-based game and luck elements have proven to ruin the experience. In past years you were able to R.I.P. Brandon Knight on every single possession, and it made for a terrible game experience.

Take away situational animations and go simply off physics? Sure, why not just bring back the charge cheese? That's essentially what anti-animation discussions come down to. The average player has no idea just how many facets of the game they hold together.

[SpeedyClaxton]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Thanks Rashidi for that detailed review, yeah i'm not really into programming lol i played bball and therefore i just express what i would like to see in game. Speaking of engine, i had much better time enjoying game back then on old gen PS2 era than now, it was a lot harder and realistic to score a basket, nowadays it's just turbo to basket for layup/dunk/foul.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Thanks Rashidi for that detailed review, yeah i'm not really into programming lol i played bball and therefore i just express what i would like to see in game. Speaking of engine, i had much better time enjoying game back then on old gen PS2 era than now, it was a lot harder and realistic to score a basket, nowadays it's just turbo to basket for layup/dunk/foul.

I don't think today is perfect by any stretch; defense is confusing as it seems fouls are given out solely based on tendencies/ratings rather than actual stick input. I had an opponent take 12 FTA on 3 FGA with Ben Wallace and most of my fouls were Patrick Ewing just flat shoving him when I'm just standing there.

It was definitely easier to score back in the day though. Any perimeter dunker was a threat for 50 points in any given online game. Many online games were against players who would take 95% of their shots with Kobe and the handful that weren't were offensive putbacks w/ Gasol/Bynum/Odom.

[SonicMage]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Implement full realtime physics into game, collision system, rim, ball, audience, referees, everything in arena should be made to comply with realtime physics even dudes that sell food in stands. Animations should be removed completely also because currently game is too heavy on animations, from collision animations to ball striping animations everything seems scripted and plastic. Instead of that they should make game rely on physics so if 2 players collide with each other result of that should be player A height + weight against player B height + weight + the force and speed of collision and then you got final result of that clash, that would be most realistic scenario for any sports game, i'm always up for some random moments in the game.

Just to piggyback off other responses, what you're talking about here is what NBA Elite 11 tried to do. Remember that game? The one that released a demo where that infamous "Bynum lookin' like Jesus" T-pose bug occurred and then was promptly canceled shortly before it was about to release? What ultimately did that game in was poor production decisions, but also being over-ambitious. They simply had no time to polish up what they were doing because they were trying to incorporate a new physics working hand-in-hand with animation control scheme based upon what you described here in such a short amount of time from a game development standpoint and it ended up biting them you know where.

Another aspect you're not considering is frame rate. Sure, it's possible to create a totally physics-based system where every single arm, pinky, and hair on a person's head is doing real-time IK (inverse kinematics), and there's collision detection going on between every single entity, and every member of the crowd is acting like its own sentient being with its own set of needs and goals, and sweat particles are flying every which way, but it's just not being realistic to say we can get that working within the limitations set by what the hardware and our algorithms can accomplish. Movies can achieve it because they have giant render farms chugging for eight hours to produce a single frame, whereas with games it has to be computed in a few milliseconds on an itty-bitty console.

I don't mean to sound harsh here, but oftentimes designers, or fans who think they're designers, come up with lofty expectations, and then it's up to the engineers to say "Woah, wait a second there" and bring a little reality into the situation and talk about what can be accomplished. Because as much as I too want a full system like what you described above, the truth is that technology is just not ready to handle it yet. Games like GTA do a lot of LOD trickery to make it appear like there's a lot more work going on than what's actually happening under the hood but a basketball game with ten full-res player models closely visible at all times makes things much more complicated.

[SpeedyClaxton]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Thanks guys for detailed overview of those things, i was never really into these things but the things i said were just 'wishes' because obviously i love game of basketball as much as many people here do.

Things that annoy me year in and year out is that technology keeps moving and games somehow seem dumber and dumber where in reality should be opposite. Graphics are not big deal to me anyways, 2K tends to polish trivial things like armpit hair but on the other side sacrifice things that ruin basketball experience like tranistion defense or foul logic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYgJ79e1AL0

Now this game to me personally gameplay wise is at least 10 time more realistic than 2k16, nevermind the graphics, focus just solely on gameplay.

Right in begining of video there is charging foul called on Hinrich that i never saw on 2K16, prolly on 2k16 that same fould would be 2+1 situation for Bulls. 2:16 Kobe Hits jumper over defender and superstar played just like superstar nevermind that tough contact shot. In 2k16 contested shots never go in and it doesn't even matter if it's Curry shooting or Elfrid Payton, as soon as defender contests shot that shot is doomed for a miss.. take a look at whole video, that game for me personally is best 2k basketball game gameplay wise, years ahead of it's time.

[CaseIH]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Remove overall rating completely from the game, it's what ruins the game for majority of people. Best case scenario would be to give players some type of grades for each game segment, for example you have LeBron James driving layup at A while you got on other side Tristan Thompson driving layup at C- ; without any numerical attributes just grades, without overall, make players height and weight matter, how the hell can 6'7'' wing who weighs 250 lbs be faster than 6'7'' wing who weighs 220 lbs ?

Implement full realtime physics into game, collision system, rim, ball, audience, referees, everything in arena should be made to comply with realtime physics even dudes that sell food in stands. Animations should be removed completely also because currently game is too heavy on animations, from collision animations to ball striping animations everything seems scripted and plastic. Instead of that they should make game rely on physics so if 2 players collide with each other result of that should be player A height + weight against player B height + weight + the force and speed of collision and then you got final result of that clash, that would be most realistic scenario for any sports game, i'm always up for some random moments in the game.

2K doesn't offer many random/nonpredictable outcomes, i know there aren't games that i could possibly see DeAndre Jordan/Brandon Knight posterizations or from 2 days ago Alec Burks posterization of Jon Leuer because current engine offers xy amount of animations and counteranimations and when you put those numbers that's the number of animations you can see in this game and that is very predictable or dull after 100+ played games, instead of that they should make game engine from zero, implement physics engine for everything from ball, jerseys, refs, cheerleaders, rim, stanchion (why not make shot clock go down after some really powerful slams) all the way to the crowd.

GTA V is one of these next gen games that offer quick peek at physics engine, you never fall same way, there is difference if you fall from 10 ft or 5 ft, there is difference if you hit concrete from wood..and the list goes on, that's the definition of unpredictable gameplay, in current state game rely too much on ratings, animations and that always creates predictable outcomes for us players.

I don't think overalls should be removed from the game, but I do think as a whole people get too caught up in the overalls of players in the game. I wish they put back in the rank of each player by position as well as overall rank in the game. I do think that if a player that's rated correctly in attributes and well as tendency to how he plays IRL, you could get a guy rated in the 60's probably to average 15+pts a game if given enough minutes per game.
I don't know much about how 2k comes up with each rating, or exactly what they base the weight of certain attribrutes over others in the game, but now with the badges in the game, a role player or bench warmer that's good in a certain area can play well in the game with enough minutes.


They say its based on a HOF scale, so if that's the case, then there are a lot of inflation of attributes as a whole in this game for all players, not so much a needed wider gap between a typical all star vs a bench player. Just my opinion, but its hard to really say when you don't know exactly which attributes are rated heavier than others, and I personally don't know how it all work under the hood.


Im sure some of these guys tha work on some of the best editied rosters have a understanding, and Ive always respected how Rashidi has came up with his ratings, wish he was on PS4, as us PS4 users tend to get the shaft with what it seems is allt he good roster editors have xbox. I just tend to make small changes here an there with how I edit for my personal roster, its not perfect but with the right sliders gameplay is solid.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

Im sure some of these guys tha work on some of the best editied rosters have a understanding, and Ive always respected how Rashidi has came up with his ratings, wish he was on PS4, as us PS4 users tend to get the shaft with what it seems is allt he good roster editors have xbox. I just tend to make small changes here an there with how I edit for my personal roster, its not perfect but with the right sliders gameplay is solid.

I am on PS4; I simply don't have the time.

[Mikelopedia]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I don't think overalls should be removed from the game, but I do think as a whole people get too caught up in the overalls of players in the game. I wish they put back in the rank of each player by position as well as overall rank in the game. I do think that if a player that's rated correctly in attributes and well as tendency to how he plays IRL, you could get a guy rated in the 60's probably to average 15+pts a game if given enough minutes per game.
I don't know much about how 2k comes up with each rating, or exactly what they base the weight of certain attribrutes over others in the game, but now with the badges in the game, a role player or bench warmer that's good in a certain area can play well in the game with enough minutes.


They say its based on a HOF scale, so if that's the case, then there are a lot of inflation of attributes as a whole in this game for all players, not so much a needed wider gap between a typical all star vs a bench player. Just my opinion, but its hard to really say when you don't know exactly which attributes are rated heavier than others, and I personally don't know how it all work under the hood.


Im sure some of these guys tha work on some of the best editied rosters have a understanding, and Ive always respected how Rashidi has came up with his ratings, wish he was on PS4, as us PS4 users tend to get the shaft with what it seems is allt he good roster editors have xbox. I just tend to make small changes here an there with how I edit for my personal roster, its not perfect but with the right sliders gameplay is solid.

I'm going to eventually release a roster that should essentially be the SimWorld roster for PS4 users (in the sense that everything will be overhauled). Despite the fact that I'm doing it myself it shouldn't take much longer than a few weeks once I begin, and I'm wrapping up testing my scales and formulas now. However I am gonna wait to see if Stauff gets my contract edits in before I pick a base to start editing.

[Comduklakis]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I don't think overalls should be removed from the game, but I do think as a whole people get too caught up in the overalls of players in the game. I wish they put back in the rank of each player by position as well as overall rank in the game. I do think that if a player that's rated correctly in attributes and well as tendency to how he plays IRL, you could get a guy rated in the 60's probably to average 15+pts a game if given enough minutes per game.
I don't know much about how 2k comes up with each rating, or exactly what they base the weight of certain attribrutes over others in the game, but now with the badges in the game, a role player or bench warmer that's good in a certain area can play well in the game with enough minutes.


They say its based on a HOF scale, so if that's the case, then there are a lot of inflation of attributes as a whole in this game for all players, not so much a needed wider gap between a typical all star vs a bench player. Just my opinion, but its hard to really say when you don't know exactly which attributes are rated heavier than others, and I personally don't know how it all work under the hood.


Im sure some of these guys tha work on some of the best editied rosters have a understanding, and Ive always respected how Rashidi has came up with his ratings, wish he was on PS4, as us PS4 users tend to get the shaft with what it seems is allt he good roster editors have xbox. I just tend to make small changes here an there with how I edit for my personal roster, its not perfect but with the right sliders gameplay is solid.

I don't know that people do get too hung up on overall. Yes worrying about your favorite player being an 86 instead of an 88 or being behind Paul George or whatever is silly. But that said, overall is so central to how the AI does trades, contracts, free agency, drafts, rotations, etc. that it becomes of utmost importance. That's why the artifically inflate "under the radar" ratings to keep the Korver types, the Danny Green types, the Jae Crowder types at an overall where they will get signed to a decent contract and get playing time. In reality, these guys have some huge holes in their game, but they make up for it with very specific skills and being great teammates. That is hard to translate for 2k both on the court and off the court. Just basing everything off of overall instead of trying to figure out a formula based on how skills fit a team and which skills are most important is the much easier way to go.

[Comduklakis]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I'm going to eventually release a roster that should essentially be the SimWorld roster for PS4 users (in the sense that everything will be overhauled). Despite the fact that I'm doing it myself it shouldn't take much longer than a few weeks once I begin, and I'm wrapping up testing my scales and formulas now. However I am gonna wait to see if Stauff gets my contract edits in before I pick a base to start editing.

I know roster editors hate this question but your contract thread is so amazing I have to ask. Any ETA on a roster?

I've never made a roster and have no specific tools, but I certainly would be up for doing some monotonous and laborious work off a spreadsheet or something if need be.

[CaseIH]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I am on PS4; I simply don't have the time.

Didn't realize you had made the switch, I remember back when you had the 360. Wish you had the time, but I definitely understand its a lot to take on to do rosters right like you always had. I typically just do my own anymore, but its mainly just messing with overalls more so than pin point accuracy that you had always done. I don't really know or understand how 2k comes up with ratings for everything so I just always make sure for playing time, and trades, contracts, etc, while attempting to make sure sim stats are atleast close to what they are IRL. I can get my sliders adjusted to get me the gameplay realistic.

[CaseIH]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I'm going to eventually release a roster that should essentially be the SimWorld roster for PS4 users (in the sense that everything will be overhauled). Despite the fact that I'm doing it myself it shouldn't take much longer than a few weeks once I begin, and I'm wrapping up testing my scales and formulas now. However I am gonna wait to see if Stauff gets my contract edits in before I pick a base to start editing.

I didn't know this, but good to know, thanks. I did see your contract thread which was great and a lot of help for me with my roster. Ill definitely have to check your roster out when its done then. Ill be surprised if 2k fixes any of things broke in My League/GM, but maybe Beds will fix the contracts that are wrong if he has the time, I kind of think that Beds has a lot on his plate if he is the only 1 doing rosters, although I don't know if that's the case with him being the only roster guy.

[the_riot]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I'm going to eventually release a roster that should essentially be the SimWorld roster for PS4 users (in the sense that everything will be overhauled). Despite the fact that I'm doing it myself it shouldn't take much longer than a few weeks once I begin, and I'm wrapping up testing my scales and formulas now. However I am gonna wait to see if Stauff gets my contract edits in before I pick a base to start editing.

I was hoping that things would change with a former os member in charge of rosters, but it seems like the consensus is still that ratings and tendencies need an overhaul for a more realistic offline experience. Just seems like the game is geared for the online player, while the simhead offline players are forced to edit and test, edit and test for a more rewarding experience.

[DaKoKing]

Re: Hyperbole in ratings...

I find it amazing that people will argue in favor of the ratings system for a game that says Magic Johnson was faster and quicker than Mugsy Bogues.

[wodi]

Hyperbole in ratings...

In NBA there shouldn't be drastic rating differences between players, doesn't matter if they are superstars or benchwarmers, ratings should be mid 70's to 90's, hate seeing players with 65 rating like they are high school ballers lol, every player can put up 20 ppg if they are given enough playing time and i speak that from experience of playing basketball. If you give Curry 10 minutes per game he would probably average around 10-15 ppg but since he plays 30+ mins each game ofcourse he will put up big numbers.



Giving an NBA player 65 rating is outta this world, it's like saying this dude is ******** but heck he plays in nba so he should be approx 20 times worse player than LBJ, that's ridiculous, in NBA every player is able to put up 20+ points if he is given a proper chance or space regarding his playing minutes.

I think this depends on context. If you are talking about playing a single game, then yes perhaps you do not need to go much lower in ratings.

But, if you are talking about MYLEAGUE or a career mode then the rating scales need to utilize more of the spectrum. I have played 2k for many years, mainly association/MYLEAGUE, as long as the rating scale is in effect (and the odds of a video game going away from the rating scale is extremely rare) the results of your career mode will not replicate real life as accurately as it could.

I was excited this year when it was announced the rating scale would be based upon the history of the nba. Turns out, that was really not true. Yes they made Jordan a 99 and rated the star players around that, but there was no change in the rest of the league. Do you think a player like Lou Williams who was initially rated an 80, is an 80 on an a time scale? Of course not. That's the rating they would have given him 2k15 and 2k14.

Ratings are the core of the results of the games. As long as we have this (imo) small gap in ratings between stars and everyone else, the game will not work right.

There are too many 80s and 70s, period. As you progress further and further in (unless you are using very well done custom roster and draft classes) this only gets worse. You see less teams winning 60 games and less teams losing 60 games. The teams get very very close.

Yes, tendencies and playbooks will effect the sim stats, but the cpu decisions and the results are primarily based on overall ratings of the players.

I've mentioned many times on here about how I've seen the Sixers win the championship year 3 with embiid Noel okafor and 2 lottery picks starting, all having ratings in the low 80's. One problem of course is the auto generated classes spitting out way too highly rated players. But unless those two drafted lottery picks were LeBron and Anthony Davis, the sixers are not winning the nba championship in 2017-2018.

Does anyone really think this years Miami Heat team is going to win the championship this year? That is a team right now in 2k made up of all 80s. And in 2k that's all you need. The game doesn't differentiate between star players and all-stars enough.

That's why the ratings need to be adjusted, less 80's and 70's.