NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

[Nevertheles109]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

Well written, Chase. I'll partake

Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?

I'm okay with it IF the user is running an set offense (aka a play from playbook, freelance offense, utilizing proper spacing within the natural flow of his offense ect.) I'm not okay with it if he just choosing to shoot that shot and I see it coming a mile away. I do agree with some of your assessment regarding hand up defense though but if Kobe was closer and had a hand in his face, that defense is effective in real life depending on the proximity. 2K needs to simulate the distance on hands up defense, especially mid-range as some people are barely effected with a slight contest in the mid-range area (Aldridge, Lebron, Melo, Kawhi, Dirk, Kobe back in the day, ect.)

Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game?

Yes. But I run a lot of plays to get my shots. I think 2K did a fine job of simulating the mid-range game upon release but the masses complained, and slowly but surely we have a slightly different game with the mid-range game being a lost art again. Even so, the contested mid-range needs to go in more. Even upon release the hand-up contest from mid was too effective (Aka pivot, face-up, jab-step and shoot is almost non-existent) when some players are very good from the elbow in those situations.

Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

Yes and no. For the rare specimens aka Steph, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie ect. It should be a LITTLE more effective but for most players it is fine where it remains. They patched stepbacks and leaning jumpers making them a little more effective and it was a welcome change... Imagine if you had Kyle Korver iso on you and pull a step-back three? That's where that rabbit hole would lead us to; Players not playing to their true strengths and users abusing attributes.

Community Question: Do you think there’s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other?


A- to C+ difference, in my opinion. The shot grade was drastically lower because of what you stated but for such an elite moving three-point shooter, arguably the best ever as it stands, it shouldn't be that drastic. For anyone else, hell yeah. But at this point Steph almost needs his own unique shot grades which would cause trillions of cheese moments with the right user playing with him.


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My tangent for you to ponder Chase. The video you posted along your first post in this thread showed a stationary three by Steph. Yes, we all know he's an assassin from three but in my opinion there's always a rhythm or flow to most of the three's he shoots in real life. If you are simply pressing a button with no rhythm, timing or concept of that little bit of space you need in real life, do you think that shot should go in?

The reason I ask is because in my opinion 2K does a pretty good job of rewarding those mechanics I mentioned above as long as you create a bit of space, run a good play and of course time the top of the release correctly. I've made crazy contested shots against my friends and they try the same without any rhyme or reason behind their shots and it's damn near an air-ball. Similar shots but vastly different methods to our madness yields very different results.

Contested shots do need work but if its more or less just tapping a button because the percentage indicates that shot goes in one out of three times, what are we really get ourselves into? If you got the shot the right way by all means let the percentages play their part. If not, in my opinion, ignorant basketball should never be rewarded, regardless of the percentages.

[A6_Foul_Out]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

None of this will work without changes to the green release mechanic.

Adding a boost to contested shots, on top of shots which should be 40-50-60% top going in at 97% needs to change.

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[hanzsomehanz]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

I clanked a wide open green corner 3 in Park last night 😔

Tough to swallow but "it happens". Whole squad was clanking but opposing team was lit making wild contact and contest shots.

I also experienced that ugly event where a defender jumps and lands on you - no foul is called and the salt in the wound: you also lose the ball due to the live ball collisions system! 😔


Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[ChaseB]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

First of all, yet another excellent article ...



1. That is too much of a penalty considering Steph is among the above average moving shooters. However this should still be considered by the game on a player to player base as there are players that are good when set and others that are good when dont, a few are good at both.

2. The same as above, depends on the player, but yes ... then again, the still prevalent left, right, left, right, shoot tactic would be even more relevant, as relevant as it was before 16.

3. Attempts wise no, at least not when playing vs other hums, vs the AI maybe, but may venture to also say no.

4. 3 out of 10 times, yes, but as the other cases, depending on a player to player base. There are players that can knock contested shots more often than others and those I would like them to do so a bit more often than those who dont.

Then again, as you have described in your article, these situations arent on an island, arent isolated and are interwinded, related to others, and if altered my also alter the landscape of the game, all should be accounted to see the full scope of any alteration (open/contested shots, set/moving shots, onball d, close outs, fouls, etc). This type of feedback/articles go a long way into providing valuable info to the devs, here is to hope for further refinements to a great game.

P.S:
Hopefully we (the users) are given even more tools to finetune (edit) the gameplay on a individual/team base level (thinking on hotspots, hotzones, moving shots, etc).

I think the big thing you say in most of these responses, and what I could have said even more in the article, is that yes all this depends on the player. As the developers more and more try to make each player unique, it then cascades and leads to talking about a lot of what I have in both these articles.

absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want “sim-oriented” games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.

Just to be clear on what I was saying (if it wasn't already), I'm not saying the turbo jump contest should be removed from the game. I just think the distance covered is too extreme and causes issues both with contesting shots and chasing down folks in odd scenarios.

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.

[ChaseB]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

Yeah that's my bad and you should find it odd I rounded up to 33 percent. I rounded up because 33 percent just felt more understandable to a person reading (because it's just about 1 in 3) than saying 29 percent -- but I could have just said 30 percent as the rounded number because 3 out of 10 is also understandable. I also probably should have used 30 percent because that's what the number was for "tight" coverage based on a full year of stats from the 2013-14 season.

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.

Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)

I think y'all all have valid points here and it's the basis for a deeper discussion (that's probably already occurred at various points). It's a bit trickier to show via numbers and stuff like I did with these articles, but it's something I'm interested in looking at more now for sure.

[dema]

I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot.
So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

I take that back, after playing today and yesterday and really paying attention to it, passing and footwork does show up in effecting the shot, it is more the defensive side of the game as some of you guys have been saying that causes this issue with contested shots, a misrepresentation of what good defence is, particularly against good shooters. Just being there by the time the shot goes up makes little difference in reality but in 2k it does, the defender being in a contesting position when the offence has caught the ball should be considered great defence on a good shooter. Then when the offence puts the ball to the floor the defence steps back and the momentum and footwork of both players comes into play.

[JoFri]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

Yes, it's perfectly reasonable -- in a vacuum -- to say you should be able to run and jump to contest or just hold your hand up. However, at certain angles if you run and jump you're going to plow into the shooter no matter what.

absolutely, as this is happening irl too.

[tril]

good article. I think part of the problem is that the ratings arent fleshed out enough.
it seems as though the same ratings grade applies for all players across the board.
shooting should go beyond mastering a green release.
seriously, how does a step back effect the overall shooter rating. are they taking the step back rating and just giving it a percentage, or are they factoring the defender rating, and also, say the handle rating and the standing shot rating.

to get more accurate shot percentages you would literally have to factor every shooting attribute and defender rating into the said shot.
if they used all the variables available and then some, you probably wouldnt need a consistency rating. but if they are adding consistency ratings then their should be a consistency rating for each individual shot type. not the overall.

the quest is to get accurate portrayal in overall game-play. there are enough ratings to make the risk.reward feature in the game more fulfilling.

the standing corner 3 for instance. some shooters can just catch and shoot and make it. While other have a better percentage getting a corner three by dribbling the ball first, then shooting. Now if you factor a closing defender to this equation, you could get more randomness.
again I dont know how complex 2ks codes are, so these could exists.

as far as the turbo defender, its simple. once the defender is out of position, or over commits on defense, the offensive ai should break out of set offense and drive to the hoop or take the open shot. An aggressive offensive player always takes what the defnse gives them. This isnt properly reflected in the game-play. There are more than enough times when the user defender gets lost and the AI controlled player does not take advantage.
the end result to this, would most likely be that users would be forced to play more controlled and sim style defense.
this should be applicable across the board. A reach in foul should always be a reach in, a blocking foul should always be a blocking foul.
On offense, a player that turbos throughout the game should be equivalent to player lowering their shoulder and driving, which then should increase the chances of it being an offensive foul.

[ChaseB]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

as far as the turbo defender, its simple. once the defender is out of position, or over commits on defense, the offensive ai should break out of set offense and drive to the hoop or take the open shot. An aggressive offensive player always takes what the defnse gives them. This isnt properly reflected in the game-play. There are more than enough times when the user defender gets lost and the AI controlled player does not take advantage.
the end result to this, would most likely be that users would be forced to play more controlled and sim style defense.
this should be applicable across the board. A reach in foul should always be a reach in, a blocking foul should always be a blocking foul.
On offense, a player that turbos throughout the game should be equivalent to player lowering their shoulder and driving, which then should increase the chances of it being an offensive foul.

The only thing I would say in response to the type of binary (yes/no) stuff you're talking about here would be tough to manage in terms of X always being a blocking call etc. I do think more can be done to keep "turbo spammers" in check, and charging calls is certainly an aspect to it, but charges have been really pulled back over the years in this game because people complained a lot about them (though off-ball, charges still work oddly well in certain modes). I think what was happening with charges in old games is that even when you weren't using turbo you would still be rung up on charging calls, and that could be infuriating.

But I really like the first part talking about choosing what type of on-ball defense you choose to take and being punished accordingly. That I agree with and, again, is why I point out the turbo jumping on defense etc. as a crutch at times.

Well written, Chase. I'll partake

Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?

I'm okay with it IF the user is running an set offense (aka a play from playbook, freelance offense, utilizing proper spacing within the natural flow of his offense ect.) I'm not okay with it if he just choosing to shoot that shot and I see it coming a mile away. I do agree with some of your assessment regarding hand up defense though but if Kobe was closer and had a hand in his face, that defense is effective in real life depending on the proximity. 2K needs to simulate the distance on hands up defense, especially mid-range as some people are barely effected with a slight contest in the mid-range area (Aldridge, Lebron, Melo, Kawhi, Dirk, Kobe back in the day, ect.)

I really like something you touched on here near the end. I could be wrong, but yes, it does feel like everyone has those "contested shot" animations when shooting, when really they aren't always applicable to everyone. Now, guys like Dirk have those signature fades in the post that don't get contested like this, but even his jumper Dirk is just rising up pretty much no matter the person that's there.

And I wasn't saying Kobe's defense in that GIF wasn't viable, just that contesting even at close range isn't some cure-all.

Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

Yes and no. For the rare specimens aka Steph, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie ect. It should be a LITTLE more effective but for most players it is fine where it remains. They patched stepbacks and leaning jumpers making them a little more effective and it was a welcome change... Imagine if you had Kyle Korver iso on you and pull a step-back three? That's where that rabbit hole would lead us to; Players not playing to their true strengths and users abusing attributes.

The caveats here I agree with, and like with everything, it would have to be built around making players stand out who do these things. To me though, It just feels like pretty much no guards can hit these shots at all, while guys like the Haywards and some other players you mentioned need to be able to hit this a bit more. But yeah, no Korver stepback 3s (especially because right now he's a bit of a husk of his former self).

My tangent for you to ponder Chase. The video you posted along your first post in this thread showed a stationary three by Steph. Yes, we all know he's an assassin from three but in my opinion there's always a rhythm or flow to most of the three's he shoots in real life. If you are simply pressing a button with no rhythm, timing or concept of that little bit of space you need in real life, do you think that shot should go in?

The reason I ask is because in my opinion 2K does a pretty good job of rewarding those mechanics I mentioned above as long as you create a bit of space, run a good play and of course time the top of the release correctly. I've made crazy contested shots against my friends and they try the same without any rhyme or reason behind their shots and it's damn near an air-ball. Similar shots but vastly different methods to our madness yields very different results.

Contested shots do need work but if its more or less just tapping a button because the percentage indicates that shot goes in one out of three times, what are we really get ourselves into? If you got the shot the right way by all means let the percentages play their part. If not, in my opinion, ignorant basketball should never be rewarded, regardless of the percentages.

Well, I think as you touched on earlier (and I have in old articles) is that we need to take Steph out of the equation. Because, yes, I do think he would have no issue taking and making that shot. He takes plenty of good shots, but he also takes plenty of out-of-rhythm, "random room" video game shots as well that go in as well.

As for the overall point though, I do think 2K seems to award those with crisper ball movement and have some semblance of flow to their dribble moves before rising up to shoot. That being said, I'm not sure if that's based on badges, if it's just a placebo effect, or there's more going on than we know about.

But your final point is one I made in the conclusion of the article I think in terms of not just rewarding turbo spam just because the final shot was only semi-contested. At the same time, we do have to remember that in reality most of the "sim" people probably call more plays than actually are called in a NBA game. Teams are not running 20 elevator sets in a game etc. They'll have base sets and motion, but a coach holding up a finger and saying what to run is more minimal at times than perhaps we realize. So deciding what factors into running something with "flow" vs. just jacking it up is a tricky thing to split up. Anyway, yeah, my intent is not to say heavily contested shots and the like should go in 30 percent of the time "just cause" which is why I tried to point out various elements that could be tweaked to help push folks towards both taking better jumpers and feeling as if the rewards will come more often.

[Nevertheles109]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

The only thing I would say in response to the type of binary (yes/no) stuff you're talking about here would be tough to manage in terms of X always being a blocking call etc. I do think more can be done to keep "turbo spammers" in check, and charging calls is certainly an aspect to it, but charges have been really pulled back over the years in this game because people complained a lot about them (though off-ball, charges still work oddly well in certain modes). I think what was happening with charges in old games is that even when you weren't using turbo you would still be rung up on charging calls, and that could be infuriating.

But I really like the first part talking about choosing what type of on-ball defense you choose to take and being punished accordingly. That I agree with and, again, is why I point out the turbo jumping on defense etc. as a crutch at times.



I really like something you touched on here near the end. I could be wrong, but yes, it does feel like everyone has those "contested shot" animations when shooting, when really they aren't always applicable to everyone. Now, guys like Dirk have those signature fades in the post that don't get contested like this, but even his jumper Dirk is just rising up pretty much no matter the person that's there.

And I wasn't saying Kobe's defense in that GIF wasn't viable, just that contesting even at close range isn't some cure-all.



The caveats here I agree with, and like with everything, it would have to be built around making players stand out who do these things. To me though, It just feels like pretty much no guards can hit these shots at all, while guys like the Haywards and some other players you mentioned need to be able to hit this a bit more. But yeah, no Korver stepback 3s (especially because right now he's a bit of a husk of his former self).



Well, I think as you touched on earlier (and I have in old articles) is that we need to take Steph out of the equation. Because, yes, I do think he would have no issue taking and making that shot. He takes plenty of good shots, but he also takes plenty of out-of-rhythm, "random room" video game shots as well that go in as well.

As for the overall point though, I do think 2K seems to award those with crisper ball movement and have some semblance of flow to their dribble moves before rising up to shoot. That being said, I'm not sure if that's based on badges, if it's just a placebo effect, or there's more going on than we know about.

But your final point is one I made in the conclusion of the article I think in terms of not just rewarding turbo spam just because the final shot was only semi-contested. At the same time, we do have to remember that in reality most of the "sim" people probably call more plays than actually are called in a NBA game. Teams are not running 20 elevator sets in a game etc. They'll have base sets and motion, but a coach holding up a finger and saying what to run is more minimal at times than perhaps we realize. So deciding what factors into running something with "flow" vs. just jacking it up is a tricky thing to split up. Anyway, yeah, my intent is not to say heavily contested shots and the like should go in 30 percent of the time "just cause" which is why I tried to point out various elements that could be tweaked to help push folks towards both taking better jumpers and feeling as if the rewards will come more often.

Aye man I'd have a rebuttal but I have none. I'm in agreement that the contested shots need work but I don't want it changed too much.

It's a hard balance to achieve but threads like this are great to push the game to the next level.

Here's a thought and it may already be in the game: what do you think about contested shot attributes based on data for mid-range, close and three? That way Steph plays like Steph and Melo can rise up with his signature triple threat mid-range J.

Now that individualizes contested shot makes and misses and also a step-back attribute for make & miss would be a thought, if it already isn't in the game.

[videlsports]

I think if you catch the d off Guard with a moving dribble combo or a hesi- pull up then percentages should be a little higher depending on the player. 3 point shots are pretty good

[nova91]

Re: NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

2K cant figure out whats a good shot contest and what is not coupled with the ball being selectively live, shot contests are not good at all. You can really see this when you play MC. Opposing CPU defenders just have to be somewhat in the area and you see your teammates blow layups, dunks, and brick fairly easy jumpers. On the other hand since 2K decided to nerf user AI shot contests to encourage on ball defense in h2h the CPU drains heavily contested jumpers or AI defenders just stand there until a shot is released and then contest or don't contest at all.