Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

[tru11]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

The short answer to what badges do...mess up the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

preach brother

[WarMMA]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

The short answer to what badges do...mess up the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Yup pretty much this. Not only that, but they also mess certain players up by underrating or overrating them. For example, let's take JJ Redick...2k gave him "bronze" difficult shots. Now the difficult shots badge says "known for making tough shots off the dribble". So how on earth does a guy like JJ get that badge at bronze? If you're a sixer fan or have been watching JJ for a long time, you know that dude should probably have HOF difficult shots. How on earth did 2k feel ok giving him bronze? My idea is they just get rid of the badges and make more ratings that represent what the badges do. I feel players can be more accurately represented that way, without all the arguing about who should have HOF, Gold, ect.

[BasketBalla21]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

Yup pretty much this. Not only that, but they also mess certain players up by underrating or overrating them. For example, let's take JJ Redick...2k gave him "bronze" difficult shots. Now the difficult shots badge says "known for making tough shots off the dribble". So how on earth does a guy like JJ get that badge at bronze? If you're a sixer fan or have been watching JJ for a long time, you know that dude should probably have HOF difficult shots. How on earth did 2k feel ok giving him bronze? My idea is they just get rid of the badges and make more ratings that represent what the badges do. I feel players can be more accurately represented that way, without all the arguing about who should have HOF, Gold, ect.

JJ Deserves bronze difficult shots now. He has added that to his game.
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[WarMMA]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

Eh, what i'm saying is I think JJ deserves higher than bronze. Are we watching the same guy? He hasn't just added that to his game? JJ has been hitting shots off the move/dribble for yrs now. He should have gold at the least, imo.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

My idea is they just get rid of the badges and make more ratings that represent what the badges do. I feel players can be more accurately represented that way, without all the arguing about who should have HOF, Gold, ect.

The reason the badges were added was to go beyond what the ratings system was capable of producing. The shot ratings are based on raw stats where there is no defensive context.

The game engine continuously runs rating calculations to determine results. Shot rating/open minus defense rating/quality = shot percentage. Some players aren't affected by defense in the same way that 90% of NBA players are (in other words, they need something to skew the formula).

J.J. Redick shot 50% from mid-range this year (assisted 87%).
Kobe Bryant shot 43% from mid-range 10 years ago (assisted 33%)

The game needs a way to distinguish Kobe's shot making from a Redick because it's common sense that they aren't guarded the same way - while still holding true to Redick's elite shooting ability.

For example, let's take JJ Redick...2k gave him "bronze" difficult shots. Now the difficult shots badge says "known for making tough shots off the dribble". So how on earth does a guy like JJ get that badge at bronze? If you're a sixer fan or have been watching JJ for a long time, you know that dude should probably have HOF difficult shots. How on earth did 2k feel ok giving him bronze?

James Harden is assisted on 13% of his FGs
Redick is assisted on 89% of his FGs

If one of these guys would deserve HoF it ain't Redick.

Additional maths
Redick: 44 of 452 FGs were unassisted (76 games, 0.6 per game)
Harden: 733 of 843 FGs were unassisted (78 games, 9.4 per game)

Part of the problem 2K has w/ badges is the lack of clear barometers for them. We have a fan making a reasonable assessment (they mess certain players up by underrating or overrating them) and then proceeds to do exactly that in the same breath.

[WarMMA]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

The reason the badges were added was to go beyond what the ratings system was capable of producing. The shot ratings are based on raw stats where there is no defensive context.

The game engine continuously runs rating calculations to determine results. Shot rating/open minus defense rating/quality = shot percentage. Some players aren't affected by defense in the same way that 90% of NBA players are (in other words, they need something to skew the formula).

J.J. Redick shot 50% from mid-range this year (assisted 87%).
Kobe Bryant shot 43% from mid-range 10 years ago (assisted 33%)

The game needs a way to distinguish Kobe's shot making from a Redick because it's common sense that they aren't guarded the same way - while still holding true to Redick's elite shooting ability.



James Harden is assisted on 13% of his FGs
Redick is assisted on 89% of his FGs

If one of these guys would deserve HoF it ain't Redick.

We'll I definitely wasn't taking those things into account. Just going off of what the badge says it does, that's why I said that. If you watch Redick, most of his shots are always coming off the move/dribble and he's been shooting like that for yrs. But thanks for the explanation...now I understand a bit more of what's going on under the hood.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

There are 70 active players with some level of Difficult Shots. An average of 2.3 per team eh? Let's check the balance.

Celtics: 6 (including Marcus Morris and Terry Rozier)
Sixers: 5
Warriors: 4
Nuggets: 4 (Isaiah Thomas' ghost has Silver / Jokic/Murray have Bronze)
Jazz: 2 (Mitchell and.... Kyle Korver)
Wolves: 2 (Wiggins and Rose..... no KAT)
Clippers: 1 (Lou Williams - no Danilo Gallinari)
Grizzlies: 1 (Mike Conley)
Hawks: 1 (Trae Young)
Hornets: 1 (Kemba Walker)
Knicks: 1 (Dennis Smith)
Magic: 1 (Evan Fournier - no Nikola Vucevic)
Pelicans: 1 (Anthony Davis - no Jrue Holiday)
Pistons: 1 (Reggie Jackson - no Blake Griffin)
Free Agents: 2 (Michael Beasley, Carmelo Anthony)

Historics with the HoF badge
Elgin Baylor (1965 Lakers)
Michael Jordan (1989/91/93/96/98 Bulls, AT Bulls)
Kobe Bryant (2001/2004 Lakers, AT Lakers)
Carmelo Anthony (2008 Nuggets, 2012 Knicks, AT Knicks, AT Nuggets)
Kevin Durant (2012 Thunder, AT Thunder, AT Warriors)
Stephen Curry (2016 Warriors, AT Warriors)
Allen Iverson (AT Sixers)
LeBron James (AT Cavs, AT Heat)
Larry Bird (AT Celtics)
Dirk Nowitzki (AT Mavs)

NO BADGE Notables: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen, Patrick Ewing, James Worthy, Kevin McHale, Tony Parker, Chris Paul (2008 Hornets)

Which seems "reasonable" compared to:
Quentin Richardson: Bronze
Larry Hughes: Bronze
Al Harrington: Gold
Dirk Nowitzki (2011): None

Yes that's right! Prime Dirk simultaneously has a HoF badge and NO badge! It should be noted that All-Time teams were a recent addition to the game which explains the discrepancy (the Classics likely haven't been touched in years, and the All-Time teams didn't use them as a base).

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

We'll I definitely wasn't taking those things into account. Just going off of what the badge says it does, that's why I said that. If you watch Redick, most of his shots are always coming off the move/dribble and he's been shooting like that for yrs. But thanks for the explanation...now I understand a bit more of what's going on under the hood.

Redick playtype breakdown

ON-BALL (10% of Offense)
10% PnR: 1.06 PPP
N/A Isolation
N/A Post-Up

OFF-BALL (70% of Offense)
32% Hand-Off: 1.10 PPP (85th Percentile)
16% Spot-Up: 1.05 PPP
15% Off-Screen: 1.09 PPP (80th Percentile)
4% Basket Cut: 1.19 PPP
3% Roll Man: 1.24 PPP

NON-HC (19% of Offense)
14% Transition: 1.18 PPP
5% Misc: 1.02 PPP
N/A Putback

Redick logged fewer than 10 Isolations in 2,379 minutes.
By contrast, he logged 33 Roll Man possessions as a SG.

Give him whatever Deadeye badge you want (Knock down contested shots at a high percentage), but Difficult Shots ain't the one. The vast majority of his shots are designed for him to be as open as possible.

On-ball possessions (particularly Iso/Post) are basically a pre-req for the badge.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

James Harden (72% of Offense)
49% Isolation: 1.11 PPP (92nd Percentile) - lead regulars in volume and efficiency
22% PnR: 0.97 PPP (84th Percentile)
1% Post-Up: 1.21 PPP (92nd Percentile)
Analysis: HOF (highest volume in history by absurd margin)

Kevin Durant (46% of Offense)
19% PnR: 0.98 PPP (85th Percentile)
16% Isolation: 1.06 PPP (85th Percentile)
11% Post-Up: 1.04 PPP (77th Percentile)
Analysis: HOF

Stephen Curry (28% of Offense)
22% PnR: 1.02 PPP (92nd Percentile)
6% Isolation: 1.08 PPP (89th Percentile) - 3rd among regulars, absurd for a PG
N/A Post-Up
Analysis: Gold (this is the volume Redick realistically needs to sniff a badge. This is actually low volume for a PG, but the efficiency is there and Curry fundamentally changes the defense which doesn't quite show up in the stats. FWIW I don't think there is a PG in history who would have HoF, depending on how we view Allen Iverson)

Danilo Gallinari (38% of Offense)
15% Isolation: 0.95 PPP (69th Percentile)
12% PnR: 1.03 PPP (92nd Percentile)
11% Post-Up: 1.15 PPP (91st Percentile) - tops among players w/ 100+ poss
Analysis: Silver

LaMarcus Aldridge (46% of Offense)
43% Post-Up: 1.04 PPP (76th Percentile)
3% Isolation: 0.87 PPP (54th Percentile)
N/A PnR
Analysis: Silver

Ben Simmons (37% of Offense)
19% Post-Up: 0.80 PPP (25th Percentile)
13% PnR: 0.96 PPP (82nd Percentile)
5% Isolation: 0.93 PPP (65th Percentile)
Analysis: Bronze

J.J. Redick (10% of Offense)
10% PnR: 1.06 PPP (94th Percentile)
N/A Isolation
N/A Post-Up
Analysis: No Badge (lacking volume)

One can make the argument that Isolation should be the lone category for "Difficult Shots". It's likely not an accident that players like Shaq/Kareem/Wilt/Malone were left w/o the badge. However I don't think that is consistent across the current NBA (Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokic, Anthony Davis, LaMarcus Aldridge, DeMarcus Cousins are bigs w/ the badge) and whomever graded the All-Time players likely had no idea what the other hand was doing.

[WarMMA]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

Redick playtype breakdown

ON-BALL (10% of Offense)
10% PnR: 1.06 PPP
N/A Isolation
N/A Post-Up

OFF-BALL (70% of Offense)
32% Hand-Off: 1.10 PPP (85th Percentile)
16% Spot-Up: 1.05 PPP
15% Off-Screen: 1.09 PPP (80th Percentile)
4% Basket Cut: 1.19 PPP
3% Roll Man: 1.24 PPP

NON-HC (19% of Offense)
14% Transition: 1.18 PPP
5% Misc: 1.02 PPP
N/A Putback

Redick logged fewer than 10 Isolations in 2,379 minutes.
By contrast, he logged 33 Roll Man possessions as a SG.

Give him whatever Deadeye badge you want (Knock down contested shots at a high percentage), but Difficult Shots ain't the one. The vast majority of his shots are designed for him to be as open as possible.

On-ball possessions (particularly Iso/Post) are basically a pre-req for the badge.

Yh thanks for the in depth explaining...I appreciate that. Like I said, only reason I said he should have the badge higher was because I was going strickly by what the badge description said. When you look at difficult shots badge, it says "known for making tough shots off the dribble". So i'm not thinking of whether a player is open or not, or does iso or whatever else it actually covers. All i'm thinking is it meant the player makes lots off off balance shots or shots coming straight off the move/dribble, which is what JJ does. I didn't know the badge covers more than that. What this actually shows me is 2k needs to do a better job explaining in detail the things these badges actually cover. This is why I would rather more ratings that represent these stuff. It's more simple...you see the category, you see the rating number, that's that.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

In honor of the Celtics, who have six guys with the badge but can't buy a bucket in tonight's game.

BOSTON CELTICS ON-BALL SCORING

Kyrie Irving (44% of Offense) - GOLD Difficult Shots, GOLD PnR Maestro
29% PnR: 0.99 PPP (85th Percentile)
13% Isolation: 0.98 PPP (74th Percentile)
2% Post-Up: 1.16 PPP (91st Percentile)
Analysis: Gold DS (but not far from HoF), Gold PRM

Jayson Tatum (36% of Offense) - SILVER Difficult Shots, BRONZE PnR Maestro
15% PnR: 0.91 PPP (71st Percentile)
13% Isolation: 0.63 PPP (17th Percentile)
8% Post-Up: 0.90 PPP (43rd Percentile)
Analysis: Bronze DS, Bronze PRM

Gordon Hayward (31% of Offense) - BRONZE Difficult Shots, SILVER PnR Maestro
27% PnR: 0.87 PPP (61st Percentile)
3% Isolation: 0.68 PPP (22nd Percentile)
1% Post-Up: 1.27 PPP (96th Percentile) - 11 poss
Analysis: No DS, Silver PRM (very high volume for a SF)

Terry Rozier (30% of Offense) - BRONZE Difficult Shots, BRONZE PnR Maestro
22% PnR: 0.93 PPP (74th Percentile)
8% Isolation: 0.81 PPP (40th Percentile)
Analysis: No DS, Bronze PRM

Marcus Smart (29% of Offense)
20% PnR: 0.82 PPP (56th Percentile)
5% Post-Up: 0.88 PPP (37th Percentile)
4% Isolation: 0.73 PPP (29th Percentile)
Analysis: No Badges

Marcus Morris (24% of Offense) - BRONZE Difficult Shots
10% Post-Up: 1.00 PPP (67th Percentile)
9% Isolation: 0.64 PPP (18th Percentile)
5% PnR: 0.81 PPP (48th Percentile)
Analysis: No Badges

Al Horford (20% of Offense)
17% Post-Up: 0.99 PPP (64th Percentile)
3% Isolation: 1.21 PPP (96th Percentile)
Analysis: Bronze or No DS (contingent on peers)

Jaylen Brown (17% of Offense) - BRONZE Difficult Shots
8% Post-Up: 0.86 PPP (35th Percentile)
6% PnR: 0.85 PPP (59th Percentile)
3% Isolation: 0.59 PPP (12th Percentile)
Analysis: No Badges (like are you freaking kidding me?)

Aron Baynes (7% of Offense)
7% Post-Up: 1.10 PPP (87th Percentile) - 20 poss

Daniel Theis (4% of Offense)
4% Post-Up: 1.54 PPP (99th Percentile) - 13 poss

Kyrie is literally the only guy on the team who can score in Isolation but sure lets give the badge out six times LOL

[olajuwon34]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

Badges are also pretty much used as marketing and selling points in the myteam mode, people will go after players in packs because he has certain HOF badges, and like we are all here discussing, what the heck do they even do? 2k has really gone of the deep end with this game, and they dont care, because their still making money off it, the care and effort along with some integrity they use to have making these games back around 2k11 is long gone.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

MILWAUKEE BUCKS ON-BALL SCORING

Khris Middleton (45% of Offense) - BRONZE Difficult Shots / SILVER PnR Maestro
20% PnR: 0.87 PPP (59th Percentile)
16% Isolation: 1.09 PPP (91st Percentile) - 2nd in efficiency among NBA regulars
9% Post-Up: 0.88 PPP (39th Percentile)
Analysis: Silver DS / Bronze PRM (better non-Iso efficiency needed for Gold DS)

Tim Frazier (43% of Offense)
33% PnR: 0.62 PPP (13th Percentile)
12% Isolation: 0.60 PPP (12th Percentile) - 10 poss
Analysis: No badges (obviously)

Giannis Antetokounmpo (36% of Offense) - SILVER Difficult Shots / SILVER PnR Maestro
16% Isolation: 0.95 PPP (68th Percentile)
12% Post-Up: 0.99 PPP (63rd Percentile)
8% PnR: 1.12 PPP (97th Percentile) - high volume for PF
Analysis: Silver DS / Silver PRM

Eric Bledsoe (35% of Offense) - SILVER PnR Maestro
26% PnR: 0.99 PPP (86th Percentile)
8% Isolation: 0.95 PPP (68th Percentile)
1% Post-Up: 1.42 PPP (98th Percentile) - 12 poss
Analysis: Silver DS / Silver PRM

George Hill (31% of Offense) - SILVER PnR Maestro
23% PnR: 1.04 PPP (93rd Percentile)
9% Isolation: 0.86 PPP (52nd Percentile)
Analysis: Bronze or No DS / Silver PRM

Malcolm Brogdon (27% of Offense) - BRONZE PnR Maestro
19% PnR: 0.83 PPP (51st Percentile)
8% Isolation: 0.95 PPP (68th Percentile)
Analysis: Bronze DS / Bronze PRM

Pau Gasol (19% of Offense)
19% Post-Up: 0.78 PPP (21st Percentile)
Analysis: No Badges (time to retire?)

Nikola Mirotic (14% of Offense)
11% Post-Up (MIL): 1.00 PPP (67th Percentile)
3% Isolation (NOP): 0.93 PPP (66th Percentile)
Analysis: No Badges

Sterling Brown (13% of Offense)
10% PnR: 0.81 PPP (48th Percentile)
3% Isolation: 0.36 PPP (1st Percentile) - 11 poss
Analysis: No Badges

Brook Lopez (11% of Offense)
8% Post-Up: 1.04 PPP (77th Percentile)
3% Isolation: 1.14 PPP (93rd Percentile) - 28 poss
Analysis: No Badges (would probably have them with higher volume on another team)

Pat Connaughton (8% of Offense)
5% PnR 1.21 PPP (98th Percentile) - 19 poss
3% Isolation: 0.55 PPP (8th Percentile) - 11 poss
Analysis: No Badges (volume)

Donte DiVincenzo (8% of Offense)
8% PnR: 1.17 PPP (97th Percentile) - 12 poss
Analysis: No Badges

Tony Snell (6% of Offense)
6% PnR: 0.55 PPP (8th Percentile) - 22 poss
Analysis: No Badges

Ersan Ilyasova (4% of Offense)
4% Post-Up: 0.65 PPP (12th Percentile) - 17 poss
Analysis: No Badges

-------------------------------

The Bucks have only 2 players w/ DS but I'd make a case for 4-5 (though nobody above Silver).

Middleton and Brogdon in particular are quite understated when you compare them to Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown
And don't get me started on George Hill vs Terry Rozier

Kyrie might be this generation's Marbury but his teammates and the fans are kidding themselves if they think their "heart" can overcome their offensive ineptitude against legitimate contenders.

[BasketBalla21]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

Eh, what i'm saying is I think JJ deserves higher than bronze. Are we watching the same guy? He hasn't just added that to his game? JJ has been hitting shots off the move/dribble for yrs now. He should have gold at the least, imo.

My bad, I misread your post. I think bronze is fine. It's really an overpowered badge so I think with his shot ratings and playstyle bronze is the sweet spot.

[WarMMA]

Re: Badges - What Exactly Do They Do?

My bad, I misread your post. I think bronze is fine. It's really an overpowered badge so I think with his shot ratings and playstyle bronze is the sweet spot.

Yh I didn't know the badge covered more than just shots off the dribble, so yh I agree bronze is fine for him too. 2k needs to explain better everything these badges actually do.