NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

This is what I remember from NBA 2k11

https://youtu.be/K-A4pd8yNiA

https://youtu.be/rERVuA95o8E

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I can't speak for MyCrew/MyPlayer, but the spin dunk glitch wasn't that rampant. I made a video where someone killed me with it; however, out of my 500+ games, I played maybe 3 players tops who used in NBA online mode.

My biggest takeaway about NBA 2K11 was that it's still the best H2H game to date. When I played it, everything just made sense, and I wasn't always complaining about this and that while playing against people online. The game was so balanced on offense and defense, and stick skills meant something. 7 years later, and we got players complaining about the damn green release and why they can't hit shots from half-court.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Some more plays recorded:

1)Another double screen. This time one of big rolls to the basket, but i fail to create anything from it. Artest hedges of the screen quite well and I got almost nothing to work with.


2) About to beat D.Fisher off the dribble, extra player collapse into paint and Artest hovers between Ariza and West, last moment he goes to cover west and Ariza misses open 3 off an extra pass.


3)Just an impact of good defender like Artest. Denies Ariza off the spot then uses the active hands to strip the ball.


4)After running that play dozen of times, first time defense do terrible with weak double team leaving Bellineli wide open on 3pt, bad rotation from Kobe too. Still had to use icon pass to hit him there and i probably wouldn't have seen it if played on 2k cam.


5)That double on Ariza caught me off guard, I could just take jumpshot there with West, but panicked and made bad pass. I really like how it can be unpredictable sometime and I have to react really quick or I'll fail like here.


6) And favorite offensive highlight so far. S.Blake stood no chance to keep up with cp3 and nice crafty finish near the rim:

I wish that this game was backwards compatible on the XB1. I would love to play this game one more time. I already know that the game will be badly outdated, but I just want experience this for myself.

Hmmmmm...I noticed you use icon passing. Call me crazy, but I swear that the AI defenders in the current NBA 2K games respond to the BUTTON press instead of the action on the court. Responding to the button press gives an advantage to the AI where they're able to intercept passess they have no business getting. In your NBA 2K11 videos, the passes seem to be right on the money.

[Jrocc23]

NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

This is what I remember from NBA 2k11

https://youtu.be/K-A4pd8yNiA

https://youtu.be/rERVuA95o8E

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

2K had issues but the hop-step was really only a issue in Crew Mode/MyPlayer modes because of how tall players could be and easily standing dunk. The other modes with regular players, it was easy to guard.

The spin dunk was bad. Especially people that knew how to do it without the post spin. Fortunately, the community wasn't as bad as it is now where it was a big deal. I've rarely seen people do it. If it was in 2K17, everyone you play would damn near be doing it.

Also the CPU on ball defense was bad as well in 2K11. They use to know exactly where you was going similar to this year. But 2K11s was even more unnatural how they used to jump to a side and bump you. But the OP is mostly showing rotations and things like that. I had no issues with things like that in 2K11 for the AI.


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[mvpd34]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

to me,

it looks like pierce attempted to halve the 2 offensive players. which is what you are supposed to do if you dont have orders to stay put or a clear threat over another.

he paused at the elbow and turned to see the ball. even though the animation is flawed in terms of how you angle your body in that situation, it was the right thing to do.

again, depends on players involved and defensive philosophy.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Now compare that to this pick and roll "defense" in 2K17.



The settings are set to double Curry off of the pick and roll. No awareness. No urgency. The hedge man isn't even aware of what's going on. The defensive logic is also awful as well, since after I switch off to Matt Barnes and Curry uses the screen, they tell me that I'm supposed to be guarding Curry.

My strategy was to let the CPU double Curry off the pick and roll, control Draymond's man and use him to defend the roll man and let Draymond shoot threes. Now apparently I'm supposed to use Draymond's man to guard Curry which will leave Draymond wide open under the paint? LOL.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Now compare that to this pick and roll "defense" in 2K17.



The settings are set to double Curry off of the pick and roll. No awareness. No urgency. The hedge man isn't even aware of what's going on. The defensive logic is also awful as well, since after I switch off to Matt Barnes and Curry uses the screen, they tell me that I'm supposed to be guarding Curry.

My strategy was to let the CPU double Curry off the pick and roll, control Draymond's man and use him to defend the roll man and let Draymond shoot threes. Now apparently I'm supposed to use Draymond's man to guard Curry which will leave Draymond wide open under the paint? LOL.

That video alone tells the defense is flawed. The hedge man was clearly clueless, and the indicator is telling you to guard Curry while you're in the paint. I'm willing to beat you had to briefly "fight" the controller when the game started to move your player to Curry. Hence, another reason why I get mad about the defense. The constant adjusting and fighting the controller which causes you to run in a circle.

Your opponent had a choice of an open 3 or maybe dumping it to Green, because you wouldn't have been able to recover quickly. Both situations caused by the wonky mechanics.

[SonicMage]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

That video alone tells the defense is flawed. The hedge man was clearly clueless, and the indicator is telling you to guard Curry while you're in the paint. I'm willing to beat you had to briefly "fight" the controller when the game started to move your player to Curry. Hence, another reason why I get mad about the defense. The constant adjusting and fighting the controller which causes you to run in a circle.

Your opponent had a choice of an open 3 or maybe dumping it to Green, because you wouldn't have been able to recover quickly. Both situations caused by the wonky mechanics.

You definitely pointed out some good stuff, but there is so much more. First of all, this should be a moving screen foul on McGee. IRL, that would've been a real collision between Livingston and McGee's shoulder and not a sliding "collision" like seen here. Second of all, watch Livingston throughout the whole course of the sequence; I know Curry is fast on changing directions but that reaction time from Livingston is horrendously slow, he even stops for a split second to decide what to do next.

I disagree to a degree with what you said about the hedge man's behavior. If his instructions were to explicitly stay on McGee during a P&R, then he did the "right" thing. If everything was set to Auto, then you're right, and I'd expect West to have made the switch and followed Curry. But in this case, HW said his settings were to double Curry off the P&R, so what happened is obviously wrong, and they did the exact opposite of his instructions, lol.

The indicator pointing out to Curry while he's in the paint that you correctly observed neatly exposes the biggest bug with defensive rotations from the AI in this whole game, and is the reason for so many wide open layups/dunks from centers that causes people so much frustration.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

You definitely pointed out some good stuff, but there is so much more. First of all, this should be a moving screen foul on McGee. IRL, that would've been a real collision between Livingston and McGee's shoulder and not a sliding "collision" like seen here. Second of all, watch Livingston throughout the whole course of the sequence; I know Curry is fast on changing directions but that reaction time from Livingston is horrendously slow, he even stops for a split second to decide what to do next.

I disagree to a degree with what you said about the hedge man's behavior. If his instructions were to explicitly stay on McGee during a P&R, then he did the "right" thing. If everything was set to Auto, then you're right, and I'd expect West to have made the switch and followed Curry. But in this case, HW said his settings were to double Curry off the P&R, so what happened is obviously wrong, and they did the exact opposite of his instructions, lol.

The indicator pointing out to Curry while he's in the paint that you correctly observed neatly exposes the biggest bug with defensive rotations from the AI in this whole game, and is the reason for so many wide open layups/dunks from centers that causes people so much frustration.

You're right on the PNR defense. In my mind, Livingston was briefly out of play (caused by an exaggerated defensive movement which is another pet peeves of mine), so West maybe should have showed a closeout or switched. To me, West made no attempts to disrupt the play to prevent Curry from getting a wide open shot, and I highly doubt anyone would consider McGee a threat.

EDIT: In the 2K11 videos, the bigs are meeting the PG at the top until the defender is able to recover. However, I will give the benefit of the doubt that the defensive settings could be impacting the AI reaction.

[GisherJohn24]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Why is the AI worse now is the question

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[TheDuggler]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

Look at this example I've recorded:

Spoiler

<div style='position:relative;padding-bottom:57%'><iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/FaroffSmallCockatiel' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' width='100%' height='100%' style='position:absolute;top:0;left:0;' allowfullscreen></iframe></div>

I came in here all ready to be like "this guy is nuts" but that was actually great. I wish I saw more defence like that in 2k17.

[Impetuous65]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

The problem with this comparison to me is

2K11 CPU AI isn't asked to do much, so I'm inclined to say this isn't about amazing AI but the amount of AI instructions.

This is a case of Keep it Simple Stupid and because it simple it looks great.

2K17 just has an execution in instructions problem. It is a case of not enough animations to match it's AI instructions. With the amount of schemes and help Defense the 2K17 CPU is asked to do on the fly is like comparing a mole hill(2k11) versus a mountain(2k17) and asking them to do it in the same time frame.

Now 2K17 has way more animations than 2K11, now ask 2K11 to perform as many task as 2K17 without adding the animations but adding the AI instructions.

2K17 branching and dynamic decisions, asked to do 400,000 task 2K11 ask to do 400 task. Every offensive action there must be a defensive reaction. So if you're asking the Offense to do 1000's things you are probably asking the Defense to do 2000's reactionary things.

[Vroman]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

The problem with this comparison to me is

2K11 CPU AI isn't asked to do much, so I'm inclined to say this isn't about amazing AI but the amount of AI instructions.

This is a case of Keep it Simple Stupid and because it simple it looks great.

2K17 just has an execution in instructions problem. It is a case of not enough animations to match it's AI instructions. With the amount of schemes and help Defense the 2K17 CPU is asked to do on the fly is like comparing a mole hill(2k11) versus a mountain(2k17) and asking them to do it in the same time frame.

Now 2K17 has way more animations than 2K11, now ask 2K11 to perform as many task as 2K17 without adding the animations but adding the AI instructions.

2K17 branching and dynamic decisions, asked to do 400,000 task 2K11 ask to do 400 task. Every offensive action there must be a defensive reaction. So if you're asking the Offense to do 1000's things you are probably asking the Defense to do 2000's reactionary things.

I have played 2k11 and 2k17 back to back bunch times and I would of notice 2k17 had 1000 more defense AI decisions and wouldn't think of creating thread. It more looked like u just made up numbers because one game made 6 years ogo and now it must have everything 1000 time more advanced.

At the end of day it mostly matter on how functional it is. And in 2k11 defense ai isnt just less flawed, but also more varied. In 2k17 cpu defense is extremely predictable in pick'n'roll situations and only way not allowed you to fully exploit is occasional stone wall defense not allowing you to use screener. The tools are there to manually adjust defense on your end but cpu always defends the same .

[Impetuous65]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I have played 2k11 and 2k17 back to back bunch times and I would of notice 2k17 had 1000 more defense AI decisions and wouldn't think of creating thread. It more looked like u just made up numbers because one game made 6 years ogo and now it must have everything 1000 time more advanced.

At the end of day it mostly matter on how functional it is. And in 2k11 defense ai isnt just less flawed, but also more varied. In 2k17 cpu defense is extremely predictable in pick'n'roll situations and only way not allowed you to fully exploit is occasional stone wall defense not allowing you to use screener. The tools are there to manually adjust defense on your end but cpu always defends the same .

I see you took an example of mines and thought I was saying facts. I'm simply talking about the evolution. Did 2K11 have branching and Dynamic points 2K11 has a significant lot less instructions than 2K17, that is not up for debate. Again this is just about execution period. 2K11 Defense versus 2K17 offense would look stupid, because of the amount of instructions and options they give the AI.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

AI aside, I think something else to consider is that there are much fewer badges "in play" in 2K11;back then you only had a small handful of badges per player. IMO this was a better system as you had to be more strategic in what you wanted to be "special" at,instead of now where even average players get some sort of bonus at 20+ things. IMO it has gotten to where the badges have significantly skewed gameplay in unfavorable directions.

Another thing to consider, at least as it applies to 2K17, is that the defensive settings themselves are not optimized at all.Looking at the default Official 2K roster almost every team is set to pretty much neutral on everything, which I believe contributes to some of the weird defensive decisions we see sometimes. This is something we can correct, but only by either editing the roster or making sure to manage your own settings.

This is even more of a problem in My Career where the only decent fix is to literally dig through the on the fly defensive adjustments for every single player while the game is underway.

All in all, I think if 2K cut down on the overbadging (90%+ of the starting centers in the league should not have Gold Pick and Roll, too many players that are literally 3 different archetypes, all maxed out at gold), and spent a little time adjusting both the default coaching setting and player tendencies to do a better job replicating real life, you would see a game which overall plays much better.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: NBA 2k11 defense cpu AI is amazing

I see you took an example of mines and thought I was saying facts. I'm simply talking about the evolution. Did 2K11 have branching and Dynamic points 2K11 has a significant lot less instructions than 2K17, that is not up for debate. Again this is just about execution period. 2K11 Defense versus 2K17 offense would look stupid, because of the amount of instructions and options they give the AI.

I understand what you're saying (more complexity to the offense, so the AI is having a difficult time making on the fly decisions), but some stuff is Basketball 101. Common sense like don't give Curry a wide-open 3 to double team McGee at the elbow. When it comes to NBA 2K17, my AI teammates make some of the wildest rotations for no reason.

IMHO, the defensive animations made the game worse. For example - the turning around in a circle. Ignoring the 2-man bumping animations (for some people, that's a point of contention), it was easier to feather the LS. In NBA 2K11, you can make small adjustments with LS and not worry about taking yourself out of the play unless you made a bad steal attempt. In NBA 2K17, feathering LS is not option, and the problem is compounded when the stupid defensive assistance kicks in and tries to pulls you in a certain direction.

Also (as someone just mentioned), it could be as simple as the offensive badges forcing defensive players into unnecessary animations, therefore causing a constant state of chaos with the defensive AI when it comes to positioning. In NBA 2K11, the AI rotated as I would expect them to. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than the current gen.