Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

Higher rated defenders were a bit tougher to bypass and played more controlled- people forget there were actually threads here about 2K16 defenders being too sticky even after the patches....and help defense was strong enough to at least made you think twice about attacking the rim....2K16 got a lot right with 1v1 interaction IMO...

It could be wonky sometimes though. Sometimes AI defenders would completely guess wrong and jump put of your way trying to anticipate your drive....but at least they were "thinking" and not mirroring your moves you know?


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[El_Poopador]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

but at least they were "thinking" and not mirroring your moves you know?

This. I hate when the defense reacts based on my button/stick inputs rather than how my user-controlled player is moving. It's one of the biggest turn-offs in the game for me. It's hard to even execute a realistic pick and roll because the defender hits the screen before I can even start using it because they move right when I hit the stick. The input lag coupled with that lets them go through the screen before I can.

[WarMMA]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

Fully agree. Irl this happens a lot with slashers that can shoot. The defense will tend to sag off a bit cuz of fear of the drive, thus giving them enough space to get a clean look at the basket. I play OKC too and you're right...playing against the HOF AI, you can rarely get off a clean shot without coming off a screen. What I notice is on the harder difficulties, 2k just tries to make the AI a clamp god on you and make it mirror your moves, unless you're a guy that can't shoot like Roberson or something. So it doesn't matter if you're a high lvl slasher that can hit the pull up J...they'll just clamp down on you and try to contain the drive that way. That said, i'm actually interested in seeing how this new "hard stop" thing works in 2k19. Maybe we'll be able to fool the AI with that and hit pull up's.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

This. I hate when the defense reacts based on my button/stick inputs rather than how my user-controlled player is moving. It's one of the biggest turn-offs in the game for me. It's hard to even execute a realistic pick and roll because the defender hits the screen before I can even start using it because they move right when I hit the stick. The input lag coupled with that lets them go through the screen before I can.

A couple of factors there. Pnr defense iq attribute as well as where you have the cpu defensive awareness at. Higher both are they will do that and jump early. Of course sometimes it’s ice defense though too. But irl it happens as how do they know a pick is coming? The guy guarding the picker is screaming out pick left, pick right so it is kind of realistic in them jumping the screen. What I see people don’t do enough and rarely do is say fine and take what the defense gives you. They always force to use the screen. But things Like rejecting the screen if they are not letting you use it like they would do irl if being played that way. Sometimes I’ll set it up to get the defensive player to just start to go over the screen then hit them with a cross to reject it. They get stuck on top of the roll man. It ends up in a nice pull up jumper or if the big steps out it’s a easy dish for a easy slam dunk. Make 1 play 2... like czar says don’t play video games play basketball. But I know what your saying though too.

[jfsolo]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

They're always working on improving how the AI reacts to things, a key will be how the can code more "fear" into how the AI, and Users too, play. Fear of the blow by, getting dunked on, getting into more foul trouble, getting hurt. These things play a huge part of the decisions that players make in real life and need to be a part of how people play the game too.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

A couple of factors there. Pnr defense iq attribute as well as where you have the cpu defensive awareness at. Higher both are they will do that and jump early. Of course sometimes it’s ice defense though too. But irl it happens as how do they know a pick is coming? The guy guarding the picker is screaming out pick left, pick right so it is kind of realistic in them jumping the screen. What I see people don’t do enough and rarely do is say fine and take what the defense gives you. They always force to use the screen. But things Like rejecting the screen if they are not letting you use it like they would do irl if being played that way. Sometimes I’ll set it up to get the defensive player to just start to go over the screen then hit them with a cross to reject it. They get stuck on top of the roll man. It ends up in a nice pull up jumper or if the big steps out it’s a easy dish for a easy slam dunk. Make 1 play 2... like czar says don’t play video games play basketball. But I know what your saying though too.

I agree on the different strategies. I know very well how to use screens in several different ways. But the real problem is that as soon as the defender his the screen, the screener moves on. Even if I haven't moved yet, once the animation plays out, the screener rolls or fades.

Half the time even if I try to cross back and go away from the screen, the input lag kicks in and the defender recovers before I can change direction, or even worse, one of my other teammates will bring their defender close to me and the lane disappears.


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[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

I agree on the different strategies. I know very well how to use screens in several different ways. But the real problem is that as soon as the defender his the screen, the screener moves on. Even if I haven't moved yet, once the animation plays out, the screener rolls or fades.

Half the time even if I try to cross back and go away from the screen, the input lag kicks in and the defender recovers before I can change direction, or even worse, one of my other teammates will bring their defender close to me and the lane disappears.


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I thought you were meaning the psychic like players jumping the screen before it got there.

[alabamarob]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AgyfFBNdfo8" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[WarMMA]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AgyfFBNdfo8" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Nice vid. Op is talking more about attacking "downhill" though, like in transition. That's off live dribbling. Clearly still a way to get space for the pullup, but he's more talking about this type of thing...

*Note how the defender's sag off him a bit in anticipation of the drive*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJVUdAdX268

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

Nice vid. Op is talking more about attacking "downhill" though, like in transition. That's off live dribbling. Clearly still a way to get space for the pullup, but he's more talking about this type of thing...

*Note how the defender's sag off him a bit in anticipation of the drive*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJVUdAdX268

On the break I see guys back up where I can pull up. When I think downhill from a 1/2 court perspective I think of plays like 15 Fist high or 15 Fist side high where guys like Westbrook or Oladipo get a running start with a high flat screen where they are running and attacking downhill. In those you don’t see what the OP is talking about for sure. But again I see the defenders back up for sure on a fast break...

[MarkWilliam]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

What I am talking about specifically is seeing AI defenders drop back on certain players - players that have a tendency to drive more than to shoot - without the aid of a screen or without the right stick play (iso dancing dribble). More a straight line attack towards the basket.

Granted I don't know anything about programming/coding etc. but I would imagine it could be something along the lines of programming the AI defender to shuffle back once the offensive player makes a move towards the basket after a certain point on the court.

Below is another example of Russ getting LA switched onto him. One dribble and you see the space created. Splash. No screens, no "iso" dribbling. Just a power dribble towards the rim and then a read/react pull up. jfsolo said it best when he mentioned coding the "fear" into the AI. I also like to think of it as "anticipation".

I couldn't embed it to start where I wanted, but if you skip to 4:10 you'll see what I mean.
(Back to back iso plays on top against Aldridge).

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/lV9LRdSLHeQ?start=4.09" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What I'm talking about could apply in transition or in the half court really. It's more a global point about AI defense.

[JoFri]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

What I'm talking about could apply in transition or in the half court really. It's more a global point about AI defense.

definitely in there during fast break situations, Cpu defenders automatically retreat to the paint

Lol I know what u mean. it'll be cool if 2k can implement it



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[emaula]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

I am with you 100% on players' offensive PnR IQ

would like to add that the new feature to seal the defense can be a true boost to PnR, so the ball handler is incentivated to not only drive to the basket but also playing some downhill slaloms as nowadays nba.

Moreover, contested shots should be determined by defender's hands rather than his positioning, so for mid ranges "hands down man down" and no more contested shots from the defender sealed

[keshunleon]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

oh yes this is quite common when attacking in transition. Whoever is running back on defense, the Cpu will retreat to the paint and thats where I pull up at the mid range. My favourite spot is mid range baseline where I do a drive-pull up animation.
That was 17 and 16.


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Bold
One of the biggest issues with defense in 2K18

I mainly play offline
I try to make the CPU drive if they can shoot (Korver), shoot if they can't (Roberson), and players do what they are weak at.
In 2K it's almost the opposite: poor defenders or slower players play tight, they leave great shooters even if they are playing tight, switch for no reason.

The CPU will attack the user because it knows the user is guarding (like it's a mis-match) if you play off ball D, the CPU looks for who the user is guarding to attack.

2K doesn't allow dribblers to attack downhill, it doesn't allow users to dribble straight when attack. It's always at an angle especially after a crossover.

Hopefully ACE will fix this.
If I am attacking and beating the CPU over and over with Westbrook. ACE should kick in and the slower defender should play off on D.

[Johnnythelegend]

Re: Attacking AI Defenders Downhill

I am with you 100% on players' offensive PnR IQ

would like to add that the new feature to seal the defense can be a true boost to PnR, so the ball handler is incentivated to not only drive to the basket but also playing some downhill slaloms as nowadays nba.

Moreover, contested shots should be determined by defender's hands rather than his positioning, so for mid ranges "hands down man down" and no more contested shots from the defender sealed

I think PnR needs to be improved on both sides of the court, and it needs to be drastically improved. It's the foundation of the modern offense, most used play and really a fundamental in today's basketball. One should just see how the Rockets play.

On one hand, when CPU runs the pick and roll it's not as dangerous as it should be and I don't feel threatened by it, even if that's Harden who's orchestrating it. There are many reasons to cause it, it would take me too long to try to explain it

On the other hand, CPU's way of defending it is just broken, for a lack of a better word, and I really really hope and expect them to fix it. It's a huge issue but it was done badly in both 2k17 and 2k18 so I am not really sure they are going to improve it.