NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Users with existing MyLeagues won't see these playbooks update.

But you will see all the new plays have been added to the catalogue in your existing save file.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

I think that manual DHOs still need an actual screen set, and the reciever needs more and quicker animations out of them.

Sometimes I will trigger an animation where the reciever forcefully uses the hand off 'screener' out of one.

It seems to trigger on bottom to top DHOs rather than wing to top ones.

Well, people think I’m too negative so I try to add some positive in with the areas that still are needing improvement.

But I agree with you 100%! I have touched on this in a few threads and posts throughout OS but will post it in here as well. Nba Live nailed their DHO’s. They are so smooth! Don’t get me wrong it’s all I like about Live. The point of a DHO is create confusion, cause a switch, allow offense a step, and act almost like a pnr.

There are a few things wrong with DHO’s that can improve.

1- smoother seem less animations like live has. It Needs to be smoother.

2- I think a pick-pop-roll tendency is needed for specifically DHO’s. Yes you see it act as a screen like I’ve been saying the last few years but now we are seeing immediate rolls out of them with lifts and backside fills to really wreak havoc on the defense.

Here is a perfect example... https://youtu.be/_wA4Fpzx08s

3- The handoff points are bad. They stop and wait for the guy to come to them and it’s usually at the nail or ft line extended. They need to continue the stop point to extend past ft line which will allow for better spacing after the DHO to attack as well as give more immersion. It’s wonky as of now.

4- After performing a DHO the handoff guy 50% of the time will defy all odds and run in opposite direction and run in front of me to cut me (ball handler off). This go’s back to number 2 though in needing these players to set a pick, roll, or pop immediately after a DHO is performed but not stand there or run and cut player off he just handed off too and he was going on the opposite direction. Lol!

Like I said though it’s night and day better from last 5 years! The cpu usually executes it flawlessly but it couldn’t be in years past by a user. It still leaves a lot to be desired to represent real basketball and how teams play today though. It’s probably a tech thing though? Idk, maybe it isn’t on their radar though so it’s good to talk about. To me this is huge area that can be improved and would drastically improve the overall game and experience though no doubt! If we are talking about sim basketball and putting in things that the real nba is doing we need to be better and focus on DHO’s.

[alabamarob]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Should I comment on this or not??? This is a loaded one...

I have a few different takes on this.

For those that know me I have done real teams playbooks for years. I have scouted teams and put in their real plays, actions, and would get players ball in spots they liked to operate from to mimic real life execution of X's & O's. I would test the plays 1st in CPU vs CPU to make sure they were not broken, had good spacing, and the CPU executed them well. If you are not familiar with what I do then you can see the blogs and thread below of details of my work...

Playbook Thread
https://forums.operationsports.com/f...-complete.html

Current Teams
https://forums.operationsports.com/v...ull-playbooks/

Classic Teams
https://forums.operationsports.com/v...eam-playbooks/

I have no idea if people realized this or not but playbooks out of the box have always been generic. 30 teams and 15 teams shared a playbook with another team. Nothing was real about the playbooks in the past. The plays were real just not individual teams playbooks.

When I first heard about this and saw czar's video on it, I got intrigued and had to take a peak. 1st thing that stood out was the low number of plays. I think the Rockets had 21, Lakers 28, and Spurs 31 out of a possible 50 total plays you can add per playbook.

I don't like that for a few reasons. I like the idea of real play styles obviously, but you can not do playbooks like this for guys who want to play in my league. What happens if you were the Rockets and drafted Hakeem Olajuwon in a fantasy draft? What if 10 years down the road in your my league if D'Antoni was fired and or your squad is completely different. Well with these playbooks you have 0 post plays, mid plays, high post plays, cutter, DHO's, etc. You can add 50 plays but through play types still get the CPU to only call the 21 you have in their playbook. So, for example Capella or all bigs would have Roll Man Play type and no Low post play type. Same result but for my league longevity if you got Hakeem you would have Low post plays to use at least. You need to account for moves down the road.

Secondly, NBA teams have monster playbooks. I have a few old NBA playbooks I had the opportunity to get my hands on in the past and they are 550 pages long! LOL! I heard people talk about the Bucks & their 5 out offense and it's all they are running. I had the chance to see them play the other day and watched the 1st half keeping track of every play they ran. Granted they ran 80% 5 out during the game but I still kept track and had 24 plays that they ran in 1 half of 1 game of basketball. They were all plays 2k had in either 18 or 19. Budenholzer still running alot of same stuff he ran in Atlanta too... What you see teams run in 1st 25 games, 2nd 25, and 3rd 25 games of the season are different. Then when the playoffs hit it becomes a half court game. You start to see all the plays in their playbook. My point is every team although to the naked eye and to most people think they are just running PNR all game and the same plays over and over are wrong. They might run PNR all game yes, but the pre action or where the PNR is happening & where each shooter is in a play is different. Every team easily should have 50 plays in it.

Thirdly as a user this is bad. If you had this playbook (Rockets) and are going head to head with someone and only had 2 3 point plays in your playbook how easy is that to defend. I get they get alot of their 3's from PNR and drive & kick but I also guarantee if I scouted them I'd see some more 3 point plays mostly in ATO, EOG, etc...

Another thing is we are 3 months from release of 2k. We are a month and a half into the NBA season. We have 3 teams playbooks done. No offense to anyone but all 30 should or could be done by now from thedata and game footage we already had. Will all 30 teams be done this year and by when? Or is this just a test? I am just curious? Reason I am curious is I know working on 2k20 has to be coming up shortly, no? Finishing this project for 19 would take away from that, no?

My last thing is the Rockets & Spurs have the same coaches and style. This could really have been inputted in the off season and small tweaks after the season started for new actions and plays. The Lakers are different as although their coach is the same due to the crazy off season they had and the new roster we had no clue how Luke was going to play this year. I completely get the new coaches with new teams needing time to scout though. But guys like Pop & D'Antoni could have had been done pre release.

My last concern is does this matter this year with CPU not calling or running any plays from within their playbook glitch and needing the workaround to have them run plays outside of Series & freelance? Is it worth doing more in 19 if this is not addressed?

I like the idea of where this could go though. I'm all for realism. It would save me time every year that's for sure! I think it can be tweaked and they for surely need to account for my league players and long term my leagues. Good stuff Dirk & glad they have you on board talking about Playbooks & Tendencies as OS articles! Man after my own heart! LOL

I usually agree with Vann, but not here. I love the smaller playbooks. Its more authentic and team specific. I also think there should be a penalty when a team uses a playbook that is not their playbook irl. People underestimate how difficult it is to run some offenses in the nba. Not every team and player is smart enough to run a play or freestyle. I have seen 99 out of 100 Hawks games since 2003, and i promise you most of those teams dont run over 20 to 25 plays. Our 60 win team had a much bigger playbook then Bud's team last year. This year we are lucky if we run 10 plays in a game. But thats just the Hawks.


Giving a team 50 plays vs 20 is a very realistic way of seperating organized, cerebral and sophisticated teams from the George Karl Nuggets. There is no way the Hawks could run a sophisticated offense this year, guys are constantly in the wrong place, like to see that reflected in 2k.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

I usually agree with Vann, but not here. I love the smaller playbooks. Its more authentic and team specific. I also think there should be a penalty when a team uses a playbook that is not their playbook irl. People underestimate how difficult it is to run some offenses in the nba. Not every team and player is smart enough to run a play or freestyle. I have seen 99 out of 100 Hawks games since 2003, and i promise you most of those teams dont run over 20 to 25 plays. Our 60 win team had a much bigger playbook then Bud's team last year. This year we are lucky if we run 10 plays in a game. But thats just the Hawks.


Giving a team 50 plays vs 20 is a very realistic way of seperating organized, cerebral and sophisticated teams from the George Karl Nuggets. There is no way the Hawks could run a sophisticated offense this year, guys are constantly in the wrong place, like to see that reflected in 2k.

A couple things... 1st no offense taken everyone entitled to their own opinion. I think for most people 50 plays is too much to go through for most users. I am minority in I use all 50 game to game and know all my plays. Im not a good to player guy on the sticks, but I’ll out execute you through plays. It’s how my teams irl with less talent always over and over would beat top teams with way more talent. I’m all for the teams playing like real life 100%! You can still get that result with 50 plays though just depends how you put play types and what plays you use. How the Rockets are done will no doubt get you how they play irl. That’s the goal! I’m not opposed to that at all or how he went about it. I do the same thing.

The playbooks in these cases though have to be different and account for all modes though. Just because you add 4 low post plays, 4 mid range, 4 high post, 4 cutter, and 4 DHO’s to a playbook like the rockets (which takes the total numbers of plays from 21-41 total plays now) you accounted for adding players down the road whether through trade, draft, etc. they will not be seen in the current Rockets players playbooks though because no one shares that play type. So, you still only have 21 plays that they will use and they will still play true to real life but they have 41 plays in playbook as opposed to 21. Make sense? This isn’t for you or even me as you and me use real rosters. This is for the guys who play fantasy my leagues. You have to account for that. Put yourself in their shoes in if you added Hakeem or Dale Ellis to that roster then what? You would go to call a play for them and they would have 0 plays. That just doesn’t work.

As far as teams running no more then 20 plays you are wrong. It seems like it but not the case at all. A simple search on synergy whether searching off ball screen plays, ATO plays, etc will show you otherwise. Synergy is a Ferrari man! It breaks everything down! I can watch every play all season of JJ reddick (any player) coming off a screen, cutting, etc. when you narrow your searches down you are amazed at the plays you see! Nba playbooks are deep! Shoot, there are literally 100 blob and slobs in a teams playbooks alone and jotted down on their cards in their jackets for those EOG or special situations that are in their playbook and practiced at some point during the season.

Now all that being said the bucks as an example they run 5 out 80% of the game, but watching 1 half of basketball I saw 24 plays they could add in 2k that they ran in the 1st half. Thats Budenholzer as you know well. I purposely kept track the other day because people are like nba only pnr and iso b-ball and bucks only running 5 out. Lol! Sure to naked eye you see pnr but is it at top, wing, sideline, sts action, etc. what about the pre action to disguise the pnr?

To add to your point though too what you see now as opposed to later in a nba season as far as early season being more like pick up b-ball and when games start to matter and let alone playoffs you really see the full playbook come to life especially in a series and game to game. If a team runs a play once or twice in 3-4 games it’s in their playbook. Shoot, my teams have 75-100 plays easy. I have series, small adjustments, etc. I might not run a play for 5-6 games until I come across a team that is playing me a certain way and/or there is a mismatch and the best way to attack it is using this play. Granted I think today’s playbooks are considerably smaller today as opposed to yesterday! No question about that! But the 550 page playbooks I have are probably more like 250 pages now even though you see 10 things 80% of the game. Whether it’s a simple stagger, weave into pnr, double horns pnr that flows into a high low, etc. a lot of times it’s a quick hitter that if not open immediately and gets you a shot it just flows into freelance and then you just play basketball. So we replicate the pre action...

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

To add 1 more key thing here I think is really important and will help explain why and how 50 total plays is so easy to achieve...

How I have done playbooks is very similar to what czar has done with series. This kind of ties back to your point a bit. For example though the Celtics run flex action here and there. What czar did with series this year is great! He also made each series option into plays so if your looking for 1 specific action. Irl I have series and call a play UCLA. I have UCLA 1-7. Depending how defense is playing I will call 1 of those 7 plays out. Back to the Celtics example, they run flex so instead of just having 1 flex play in their playbook you add the series of flex plays. That might mean 1 flex play in multiple play types of pnr, low post, cutter, DHO, mid range, and 3 point. That’s 6 plays added (a series basically) to 1 teams playbook. Now think if a team has 4 series they run irl. That can be 24 plays. Now factor in the basic pnr’s And iso’s. Easily another 16 plays you can add. 50 plays, series, counters or whatever you want to call it is not even enough to replicate real life but more then enough for a video game to replicate it! Plus 99% of users would never use or even go that deep I get that. But that might clear it up a bit and better understand how you can get to 50 pretty easily. Rockets are an anamoly though in their play style.

[alabamarob]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

A couple things... 1st no offense taken everyone entitled to their own opinion. I think for most people 50 plays is too much to go through for most users. I am minority in I use all 50 game to game and know all my plays. Im not a good to player guy on the sticks, but I’ll out execute you through plays. It’s how my teams irl with less talent always over and over would beat top teams with way more talent. I’m all for the teams playing like real life 100%! You can still get that result with 50 plays though just depends how you put play types and what plays you use. How the Rockets are done will no doubt get you how they play irl. That’s the goal! I’m not opposed to that at all or how he went about it. I do the same thing.

The playbooks in these cases though have to be different and account for all modes though. Just because you add 4 low post plays, 4 mid range, 4 high post, 4 cutter, and 4 DHO’s to a playbook like the rockets (which takes the total numbers of plays from 21-41 total plays now) you accounted for adding players down the road whether through trade, draft, etc. they will not be seen in the current Rockets players playbooks though because no one shares that play type. So, you still only have 21 plays that they will use and they will still play true to real life but they have 41 plays in playbook as opposed to 21. Make sense? This isn’t for you or even me as you and me use real rosters. This is for the guys who play fantasy my leagues. You have to account for that. Put yourself in their shoes in if you added Hakeem or Dale Ellis to that roster then what? You would go to call a play for them and they would have 0 plays. That just doesn’t work.

As far as teams running no more then 20 plays you are wrong. It seems like it but not the case at all. A simple search on synergy whether searching off ball screen plays, ATO plays, etc will show you otherwise. Synergy is a Ferrari man! It breaks everything down! I can watch every play all season of JJ reddick (any player) coming off a screen, cutting, etc. when you narrow your searches down you are amazed at the plays you see! Nba playbooks are deep! Shoot, there are literally 100 blob and slobs in a teams playbooks alone and jotted down on their cards in their jackets for those EOG or special situations that are in their playbook and practiced at some point during the season.

Now all that being said the bucks as an example they run 5 out 80% of the game, but watching 1 half of basketball I saw 24 plays they could add in 2k that they ran in the 1st half. Thats Budenholzer as you know well. I purposely kept track the other day because people are like nba only pnr and iso b-ball and bucks only running 5 out. Lol! Sure to naked eye you see pnr but is it at top, wing, sideline, sts action, etc. what about the pre action to disguise the pnr?

To add to your point though too what you see now as opposed to later in a nba season as far as early season being more like pick up b-ball and when games start to matter and let alone playoffs you really see the full playbook come to life especially in a series and game to game. If a team runs a play once or twice in 3-4 games it’s in their playbook. Shoot, my teams have 75-100 plays easy. I have series, small adjustments, etc. I might not run a play for 5-6 games until I come across a team that is playing me a certain way and/or there is a mismatch and the best way to attack it is using this play. Granted I think today’s playbooks are considerably smaller today as opposed to yesterday! No question about that! But the 550 page playbooks I have are probably more like 250 pages now even though you see 10 things 80% of the game. Whether it’s a simple stagger, weave into pnr, double horns pnr that flows into a high low, etc. a lot of times it’s a quick hitter that if not open immediately and gets you a shot it just flows into freelance and then you just play basketball. So we replicate the pre action...

Not counting out of bounds plays i promise you the hawks dont run more then 10 to 15 plays. Please check that ferarri and let me know. Watch them tonight. 5 diff pnrs. 5 hand offs and 2 cutters and 3 pin downs. If you think Spellman knows 50 plays you are wrong. Ha. And i like Spellman. There are only 100 plus possessions in a game. You really think they calling 40 plays?

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Not counting out of bounds plays i promise you the hawks dont run more then 10 to 15 plays. Please check that ferarri and let me know. Watch them tonight. 5 diff pnrs. 5 hand offs and 2 cutters and 3 pin downs. If you think Spellman knows 50 plays you are wrong. Ha. And i like Spellman. There are only 100 plus possessions in a game. You really think they calling 40 plays?

Lol! Challenge accepted! Is this your way of putting the Hawks at the top of my playbooks and to do list?! Haha joke! I’m not saying they call 40 plays per game at all! What I am saying is over a 20 game period you would see 40 plays for sure. They might not call a play 1 game but might use it in the next game. But it’s in their playbook.

I think your point is you want to see what they do the majority of the time represented and who cares about the play they run here and there? I get that point and it’s a fair point. I like to add that 1 play in their playbook for variety as well as it exists in their playbook.

And for the record... I love Spellman! He’s got a pretty high iq I thought in watching his film from Villanova... To be fair, I have not caught or watched 1 Hawks game this year yet...

[alabamarob]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Lol! Challenge accepted! Is this your way of putting the Hawks at the top of my playbooks and to do list?! Haha joke! I’m not saying they call 40 plays per game at all! What I am saying is over a 20 game period you would see 40 plays for sure. They might not call a play 1 game but might use it in the next game. But it’s in their playbook.

I think your point is you want to see what they do the majority of the time represented and who cares about the play they run here and there? I get that point and it’s a fair point. I like to add that 1 play in their playbook for variety as well as it exists in their playbook.

And for the record... I love Spellman! He’s got a pretty high iq I thought in watching his film from Villanova... To be fair, I have not caught or watched 1 Hawks game this year yet...

Fyi. Running the same play for 2 different people is not 2 plays. Ha

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Fyi. Running the same play for 2 different people is not 2 plays. Ha

Lmao! Ohhhhhh, now there are stipulations and rules to this? Lol! Don’t worry I already watched some film and started on this project. I’m sitting at 24 plays! Just getting loose! Ha

I will say watching the Hawks Play style as a coach is beyond annoying! I get it though, tank and get that lottery pick! Smh!

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Well AROB you were not lying or exaggerating! Well, maybe a little… LOL! The Hawks are not fun to watch as a coach I will say that! SMH! I will also say they do not do my examples earlier any favors. BUT, teams like the Rockets & Hawks are not indicative of how the rest of the league plays for sure. I can see why you thought that they didn’t run much stuff though, because they don’t! HA! They do run quite a few PNR’s & DHO’s into PNR’s though. They definitely don’t run a lot of set plays with multiple options in it let alone any off ball actions REALLY, and they have way too much freedom to improvise imo… I can’t believe how little they run & I have never seen anything like it as far as lack of coaching or structure. Most all their 3’s come from drive & kick as does the Rockets. They must have there eyes on someone in that draft though! LOL! I’d probably not give them more than 35 real plays tops. I’d give 4 mid and 4 high post plays to the playbook just for my league purposes, but those plays wouldn’t apply for this team as no one would have those play types.

Anyways, I listed a few plays I saw in just watching some highlights of 3 games with searching only made shots in each game. As a user this might not be a playbook that is ideal to use online because of the DHO’s, but thats just the NBA now a days… It became frustrating though because a lot of the play actions I KNOW they had in 2K18 are no longer in 2K19 so I had to mimic and improvise a bit… A few plays they ran (especially some 3 Pt plays & shots from corner on swing & Runner action) I couldn’t even improvise as they are not in either game and we will just need to wait for Czar to update and add them in the game when he does the Hawks update. I will watch some more and get back and add to this list as I go. I just wanted to give you something to start with… Keep in mind I just watched 3 games worth of film here and I haven’t even searched the 3 point plays or off screen stuff yet…


Atlanta Hawks Plays

- **Fist 5 Out 6 - PNR
- **Fist 25 Give - PNR
- **Fist 5 Out - PNR (Backside Fill)
- **Fist 35 Swing Quick - PNR Option
- **Fist 15 Chin Give - PNR
- **08 Punch 15 Fist - Low Post
- **Fist 52 Side - PNR Option
- **Fist Bull Pitch - PNR Option
- Fist 51 Give 4 Out - PNR Option
- Punch 5 Horns Fist 2 - Low Post
- **Fist 15 High - PNR Option
- **Fist 15 Side - PNR Option
- Fist 5 Short 4 CNR - PNR Option
- ISO 1 Quick - ISO
- Punch 12 Spread - Guard Post
- Fist 45 Give - PNR Option
- ISO 1 Spread - ISO
- Fist 81 Out - PNR 3Pt
-

- Run Punch 15 Spread - Low Post - (Low Laker Cut Instead) They run a High Laker Cut but NO Plays to replicate it in 2k19 but had 5 plays like it in 18.

- Fist 35 Horns X - PNR - (Only play with flip action close enough in 2k19 to mimic the action - 3 Should drive and 5 sprints to weak side corner 3 pt.)

All 3 of the next plays are Elbow passes and the same idea. They ran this quite a bit. Unfortunately no play in the game for the action but these 3 get as close as possible Within the DHO & 3 Pt. Play types.

- Give Elbow 43 - DHO (Had to mimic this as well. It is close as Collins receives the elbow pass but Huerter cuts off split action and Tre comes back for DHO instead IRL)

- Same as above you could get away with Give Horns 42 Away - DHO - to mimic & get variety of action.

- 90 Quick 2 Give - 3Pt. - As close as you will get for the action listed above again as it was Huerter coming around for the 3 after the elbow and DHO. Difference here is Elbow pass to the 5 man not Collins at the 4.

- Cut 15 Alley - Cutter
- ISO 2 Spread - ISO
- ISO 5 Out 4 - ISO
- Give Elbow Series - DHO
- Give 42 Horns - DHO
- Give Warriors Fist 2 - DHO - Pinch Post (only thing wrong strong corner should be clear.
- Fist HHD Series - PNR
- Fist 15 Flat - PNR 3 Pt
- Punch 45 X - Low Post
- Quick Veer Fist - 3 Pt.
- Fist 25 Quick - PNR
- Give 51 5 Out - DHO

- Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.???
- 98 Punch 25 - Low Post??? - Mimic Triangle Post Entry without the strong side DHO 1st… This also provides the High Laker Cut thru of the other Low Post Action.
- Quick Wide PIN - 3 Pt.


Similar Actions But Not The Actual Play
- 15 Fist 2 Quick - Mid Range

Possibilities For Plays To Add For Depth / Basic 3 Pt Plays (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
- Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.
- Quick Point - 3 Pt.
- Quick 5 Out - 3 Pt.

Cutter Actions I Would Use To Disguise Looks (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
- Cut 5 Horns Dive - Cutter (Elbow Entry)
- Quick Elbow Cross - Cutter (Elbow Entry & Mimics CNR 3 Action/Runner)
- Cut Point - Cutter (21 DHO Action/Options)


TOTAL PLAYS ADDED BELOW = 42
PNR - 17 plays
Handoff - 6 Plays
Low Post - 4 Plays
3 Point - 6 Plays
ISO - 4 Plays
Guard Post - 1 (Vince Carter)
Cutter - 4

High Post - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)
Mid Range - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)


As you can see with these play types you are still going to capture how they play as it will be PNR heavy. The Hawks are a lot like the Rockets though and don’t really have the personnel to run specials for. It’s not like they have a J.J. Reddick or a Kyle Korver to run off screens. They have a lot of slashers with Prince, Bazemore, Bembry, Huerter, & Anderson. Lin & Tre Young obviously operating off PNR’s mainly. So, hard to say, but I’d assume why they play the way they do along with the tanking to get Zion. LOL! Play to your strengths though. Watching other teams I am seeing a lot more sets compared to Atlanta thats for sure.


This is precisely why we need these done though and why what Czar is doing is so great. He is adding realism by adding plays that teams run IRL so we can mimic our favorite teams. This in turn allows the CPU teams to have that SIM feel and we feel as we are playing each team. Teams don’t play like each other anymore. Even in years past when I have done playbooks I had to mimic a lot of things to similar plays, actions, or get players in spots as opposed to having every play their real plays. Thats not to say we didn’t have real plays that were in the game or that I could put in each team’s playbook just not all 50 could be real in what they actually step by step ran IRL. With him adding real plays per team we can get that realism each and every year… Now we just need the same detail to player tendencies to bring out each players individualized real life tendencies to have players playing and performing their real life moves as well.

[olajuwon34]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Why did you find it necessary to use a massive font? It doesn't help get your point across; if anything, it makes it worse.

If a dev were to for some reason scroll through this thread, he would definitely not miss that, and maybe thats all the poster wanted.

[alabamarob]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Well AROB you were not lying or exaggerating! Well, maybe a little… LOL! The Hawks are not fun to watch as a coach I will say that! SMH! I will also say they do not do my examples earlier any favors. BUT, teams like the Rockets & Hawks are not indicative of how the rest of the league plays for sure. I can see why you thought that they didn’t run much stuff though, because they don’t! HA! They do run quite a few PNR’s & DHO’s into PNR’s though. They definitely don’t run a lot of set plays with multiple options in it let alone any off ball actions REALLY, and they have way too much freedom to improvise imo… I can’t believe how little they run & I have never seen anything like it as far as lack of coaching or structure. Most all their 3’s come from drive & kick as does the Rockets. They must have there eyes on someone in that draft though! LOL! I’d probably not give them more than 35 real plays tops. I’d give 4 mid and 4 high post plays to the playbook just for my league purposes, but those plays wouldn’t apply for this team as no one would have those play types.

Anyways, I listed a few plays I saw in just watching some highlights of 3 games with searching only made shots in each game. As a user this might not be a playbook that is ideal to use online because of the DHO’s, but thats just the NBA now a days… It became frustrating though because a lot of the play actions I KNOW they had in 2K18 are no longer in 2K19 so I had to mimic and improvise a bit… A few plays they ran (especially some 3 Pt plays & shots from corner on swing & Runner action) I couldn’t even improvise as they are not in either game and we will just need to wait for Czar to update and add them in the game when he does the Hawks update. I will watch some more and get back and add to this list as I go. I just wanted to give you something to start with… Keep in mind I just watched 3 games worth of film here and I haven’t even searched the 3 point plays or off screen stuff yet…


Atlanta Hawks Plays

- **Fist 5 Out 6 - PNR
- **Fist 25 Give - PNR
- **Fist 5 Out - PNR (Backside Fill)
- **Fist 35 Swing Quick - PNR Option
- **Fist 15 Chin Give - PNR
- **08 Punch 15 Fist - Low Post
- **Fist 52 Side - PNR Option
- **Fist Bull Pitch - PNR Option
- Fist 51 Give 4 Out - PNR Option
- Punch 5 Horns Fist 2 - Low Post
- **Fist 15 High - PNR Option
- **Fist 15 Side - PNR Option
- Fist 5 Short 4 CNR - PNR Option
- ISO 1 Quick - ISO
- Punch 12 Spread - Guard Post
- Fist 45 Give - PNR Option
- ISO 1 Spread - ISO
- Fist 81 Out - PNR 3Pt
-

- Run Punch 15 Spread - Low Post - (Low Laker Cut Instead) They run a High Laker Cut but NO Plays to replicate it in 2k19 but had 5 plays like it in 18.

- Fist 35 Horns X - PNR - (Only play with flip action close enough in 2k19 to mimic the action - 3 Should drive and 5 sprints to weak side corner 3 pt.)

All 3 of the next plays are Elbow passes and the same idea. They ran this quite a bit. Unfortunately no play in the game for the action but these 3 get as close as possible Within the DHO & 3 Pt. Play types.

- Give Elbow 43 - DHO (Had to mimic this as well. It is close as Collins receives the elbow pass but Huerter cuts off split action and Tre comes back for DHO instead IRL)

- Same as above you could get away with Give Horns 42 Away - DHO - to mimic & get variety of action.

- 90 Quick 2 Give - 3Pt. - As close as you will get for the action listed above again as it was Huerter coming around for the 3 after the elbow and DHO. Difference here is Elbow pass to the 5 man not Collins at the 4.

- Cut 15 Alley - Cutter
- ISO 2 Spread - ISO
- ISO 5 Out 4 - ISO
- Give Elbow Series - DHO
- Give 42 Horns - DHO
- Give Warriors Fist 2 - DHO - Pinch Post (only thing wrong strong corner should be clear.
- Fist HHD Series - PNR
- Fist 15 Flat - PNR 3 Pt
- Punch 45 X - Low Post
- Quick Veer Fist - 3 Pt.
- Fist 25 Quick - PNR
- Give 51 5 Out - DHO

- Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.???
- 98 Punch 25 - Low Post??? - Mimic Triangle Post Entry without the strong side DHO 1st… This also provides the High Laker Cut thru of the other Low Post Action.
- Quick Wide PIN - 3 Pt.


Similar Actions But Not The Actual Play
- 15 Fist 2 Quick - Mid Range

Possibilities For Plays To Add For Depth / Basic 3 Pt Plays (I WOULD USE THEM ALL)
- Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.
- Quick Point - 3 Pt.
- Quick 5 Out - 3 Pt.

Cutter Actions I Would Use To Disguise Looks (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
- Cut 5 Horns Dive - Cutter (Elbow Entry)
- Quick Elbow Cross - Cutter (Elbow Entry & Mimics CNR 3 Action/Runner)
- Cut Point - Cutter (21 DHO Action/Options)


TOTAL PLAYS ADDED BELOW = 42
PNR - 17 plays
Handoff - 6 Plays
Low Post - 4 Plays
3 Point - 6 Plays
ISO - 4 Plays
Guard Post - 1 (Vince Carter)
Cutter - 4

High Post - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)
Mid Range - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)


As you can see with these play types you are still going to capture how they play as it will be PNR heavy. The Hawks are a lot like the Rockets though and don’t really have the personnel to run specials for. It’s not like they have a J.J. Reddick or a Kyle Korver to run off screens. They have a lot of slashers with Prince, Bazemore, Bembry, Huerter, & Anderson. Lin & Tre Young obviously operating off PNR’s mainly. So, hard to say, but I’d assume why they play the way they do along with the tanking to get Zion. LOL! Play to your strengths though. Watching other teams I am seeing a lot more sets compared to Atlanta thats for sure.


This is precisely why we need these done though and why what Czar is doing is so great. He is adding realism by adding plays that teams run IRL so we can mimic our favorite teams. This in turn allows the CPU teams to have that SIM feel and we feel as we are playing each team. Teams don’t play like each other anymore. Even in years past when I have done playbooks I had to mimic a lot of things to similar plays, actions, or get players in spots as opposed to having every play their real plays. Thats not to say we didn’t have real plays that were in the game or that I could put in each team’s playbook just not all 50 could be real in what they actually step by step ran IRL. With him adding real plays per team we can get that realism each and every year… Now we just need the same detail to player tendencies to bring out each players individualized real life tendencies to have players playing and performing their real life moves as well.

I will say 10 of these plays they dont run, and another 10 are the same play with different players. However, i will look at the specific plays and let you know. I know for a fack they dont run that hhd series or that cutter play. I also have not seen 1 post play all season. All of the post action i have seen is freelance. Finally, adding mid range plays is laughable. Look at their shot chart. 3s and paint. They arent running mid range plays.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

I will say 10 of these plays they dont run, and another 10 are the same play with different players. However, i will look at the specific plays and let you know. I know for a fack they dont run that hhd series or that cutter play. I also have not seen 1 post play all season. All of the post action i have seen is freelance. Finally, adding mid range plays is laughable. Look at their shot chart. 3s and paint. They arent running mid range plays.

Lol! I don’t think you read through my lengthy posts. I’ll say it early so you don’t miss it. Mid range and high post plays in this scenario within a playbook is for my league players who play fantasy leagues. You have to account for that when doing playbooks. This isn’t a playbook for 1 type of player it’s for the masses and all modes. You have to think outside the box and factoring in everyone who buys the game. The mid range I posted I just listed because they ran the shooter coming off the screen from the block to the corner. I wasn’t saying use that I was just referencing we needed that action in. The play they ran a lot was actually Tre passes to elbow go’s to screen away for prince, prince rejects and just runs through the paint. Then Tre curls back and gets DHO or pitchback from Elbow guy then prince comes off the screen on block to corner for corner 3. They ran it to Huerter as well. The mid play IF you go look at it shows the end result. You can only mimic certain things if they don’t exist in game. Bring that up to czar not me. Lol I didn’t have any mid range plays listed to use. Just said put in for my league longevity. Nothing else. Plus the Hawks would never run mid range play because no one has the play type. You don’t assign it to them. So it’s like those plays aren’t there. Only for my league guys. Make sense?

2nd the actions they ran the most are not even in the game. I’d say about 8-10 plays that were in 18 or were actions I knew I needed to find don’t exist in 19. A perfect example is Fist 52 side. The Hawks run that play EXCEPT it starts from Tre passing to the 2 then the pnr comes. But that doesn’t exist in 19 with the same set up or with screen happening wing to side. I could mimic it from wing to top key but they didn’t run that. Lol! The 3 plays that are the same (similar), but different people is the DHO into pnr which they ran the most of. Seeing they ran that a ton to see it more vs CPU you add it more. I think partially you are confusing a user vs user playbook and creating a playbook for the cpu and to have the AI running plays like they do irl. Obviously as a user you have that 1 play and don’t need 3. Look at a few of Czar books there is 2 of same play (same play name) too. I can’t duplicate a play though like devs can. Only put similar one in.

The cutter plays were to get those actions as far as players getting scores of cuts. You could for sure eliminate and I posted in the post that they DIDN’T run them BUT I would add them BECAUSE they can act as a counter (elbow feed, etc) to plays they do run. They ran simple pin downs. Every pnr and handoff they ran a few times (only watched 3 games of film).

As far as post ups go, I saw a few high low feeds. They ran horns looks too. The 08 15 Fist they absolutely ran. They might not look for post feed in set plays, but they do hit it and if you don’t account for it they will never do it in game which they clearly do in game. They ran a few punch plays into a high laker cut. I watched it but hey you know your team would never do it! Lol! Like I said in previous posts if it’s in their playbook add it. Do you really think the hawks have 0 post plays in their playbook? That when you play them and vs cpu you want them to never pass to post? Not to mention AGAIN That even if they don’t run any you still HAVE to account for it for my league players.

You must think I’m just making it up for fun, I’m an idiot and havnt scouted 3 years of college basketball, or you are just missing the point of my previous posts of the reasoning behind the why do something, Or maybe you just want to argue with me. Lol

The Fist HHD they do start in horns and 1 guy pops up to set pick while the other spreads. The way Hawks ran it though was Len sprinted to opposite corner. It used to be in 18 but I couldn’t find it so the closest I could get from their pre set horns look they run was the HD’s play. Again try and get as close as we can without having their real plays in the game.

Like I said In the very last paragraph was numerous actions are not represented in the game so I had to improvise until we get them and czar gets to them and adds them in. They had about 10 things that don’t exist in game. Let Czar release his plays for hawks and you can see them. So by your account the Hawks should have 10 plays total in their playbook and if it’s anymore it’s wrong? Lol!

But here is an alternative option as well, you can always just keep the fake hawks playbook too that doesn’t replicate real life at all! Lol! I choose to try and make the best of what game gives us and replicate the best we can. If we had real hawks plays in like I described above then I’d 1000% switch them out with the look a likes!

But bottom line is the Hawks flat out suck and you can see why. You were right they don’t run much. But that’s not the norm for 28/30 teams.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Disregard my last post AROB. I re-read my post again to see if I didn’t explain myself properly in my original post. Then I realized no way did you read it as I clearly stated my reasoning of everything & then I realized that you just went directly to look at the plays. Lol! That’s what I get for long lengthy drawn out posts and for biting on your trolling. I get skimmers skimming my posts... ha

[JoFri]

Re: NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Shall we stick to the plays the teams run irl this year?
Having too many good to have plays really confuses me when I try to relate them to the team.

I just want to add on that running the plays the teams run irl gives me a sense of realism and some sort of association to the team. And it also motivated me watching a complete nba game (I'm not into nba score betting so yeah, pure sports enjoyment) without dozing off halfway through. Frankly, I care less about the other game modes. I also hope we are not turning this thread into sort of 'money play thread' as I believe there are tons in youtube.

And lets add some short video clips to enhance the learning experience of the depth of the plays.

I'll start off with this, one of the Lemarcus post plays left out from the earlier 2K playbook update but still ran infrequently irl this year.

'94 PUNCH WHEEL (post up low)

https://youtu.be/-LMP4oZ2hRI

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