Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

[jyoung]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

My two biggest beefs with the way that screens work in 2K19 are:

1) The pick dodger badge seems largely useless for defenders, regardless of what level it's on. In MyTeam, I've watched my diamond Paul Millsap card with hall of fame pick dodger get repeatedly pulled behind screens from guards and forwards who have no brick wall or bruiser badges.

2) The collision animations between the screener and on-ball defender seem completely random and don't appear to take the screen's angle or force/impact into account when determining how harshly the defender gets screened. This is the main issue that has allowed the left/right screen cheese to thrive in 2K19 to a point where people don't even need to properly setup a screen with a running start or an explosive dribble move to generate a high-impact collision when they can instead just stand upright, barely move 0.2598 inches to one side, then gently feather their left joystick side to side and repeatedly nudge the defender's limbs into the screener until they finally get the desired screen animation that sucks the defender through the screener's body and teleports him backward or sideways, well outside of an effective shot contest range.

It should be easy for the defender to step through and shrug off a screen when both the screener and defender are barely moving at all and have not generated enough force/import with their movement speed to cause a rightfully damaging screen.

If ballhandlers had to explode into a screen with a lot of speed and velocity to get a good screen animation to occur then that should theoretically kill the left/right joystick feathering cheese that has infested 2K19's online gameplay. You'd have one chance for a good heavy screen to hit after exploding out of a dribble move and if you can't get an open shot after that initial hit then you'd have to pass the ball to someone else and relocate the screener to create another opportunity for a high-impact collision to occur.

Many modern NBA teams run handoffs or pindowns before setting a ball screen for that reason: to get the on-ball defender running and increase the velocity/force of the oncoming collision.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

The pick and roll system is garbage right now.

-As stated multiple times on here. The black hole suction that the screener does to the defender has got to go.

-The manual pick and slip option is so slow and clunky that it's borderline useless. The pick and slip plays are much better.

-They need to do something about the way the pick and roll icon is handled. It shouldn't disappear if the screener runs into it. I should be able to adjust my pick and roll based on how the defender is playing me. I play online a lot where people love to play offball defense. A lot of the time the CPU will run into the screen before I'm even done adjusting it and the icon disappears and I have to reset the damn thing.

-The pick and pop is so bad lol. I try to run a pick and pop for a 3 point shot and too many times the screener will still roll to the rim or pop for a midrange shot. I'm sick of running a pick and pop and having my teammate roll to the rim. Add a Pick and Pop Mid and Pick and Pop 3 Point option.

-The pick and roll icon is broken and has been all year.

-Put the side switch button back to RT. Wtf I use the left stick to manuever the pick, I don't need the side switch button on the left stick.

-Why are online players still allowed to inbound the ball, turbo up the court, call for a screen to throw all my players out of position and NOT get called for an illegal screen? This has been a problem for years.

[Marvlus91]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

pick and roll/pop for me is a toss up, when i call for a pick the defender almost always runs into it before i even move to use it.

even bad defenders gets thru the pick with ease

[WarMMA]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

The pick and roll system is garbage right now.

-As stated multiple times on here. The black hole suction that the screener does to the defender has got to go.

-The manual pick and slip option is so slow and clunky that it's borderline useless. The pick and slip plays are much better.

-They need to do something about the way the pick and roll icon is handled. It shouldn't disappear if the screener runs into it. I should be able to adjust my pick and roll based on how the defender is playing me. I play online a lot where people love to play offball defense. A lot of the time the CPU will run into the screen before I'm even done adjusting it and the icon disappears and I have to reset the damn thing.

-The pick and pop is so bad lol. I try to run a pick and pop for a 3 point shot and too many times the screener will still roll to the rim or pop for a midrange shot. I'm sick of running a pick and pop and having my teammate roll to the rim. Add a Pick and Pop Mid and Pick and Pop 3 Point option.

-The pick and roll icon is broken and has been all year.

-Put the side switch button back to RT. Wtf I use the left stick to manuever the pick, I don't need the side switch button on the left stick.

-Why are online players still allowed to inbound the ball, turbo up the court, call for a screen to throw all my players out of position and NOT get called for an illegal screen? This has been a problem for years.

The illegal screens are all out of whack tbh. Sometimes you have times when it should get called and doesn't and then sometimes you have times when it gets called and shouldn't smh. The black whole screen is is also annoying and the fact that little guys can wall off big men when they screen. I've had Westbrook straight brick wall some bigs on screen plays...its hilarious.

[TonyBake]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

That's interesting that people think the PNR needs work on the offensive end as I've always considered it to be way too effective due to the OP screen/brick wall animations and bad AI when defending screens.

Everyone just spams pick and rolls. My roommate is so dependent on it that he literally can't score any other way and thus will call upwards of 5-6 screens in ONE POSSESSION trying to get the right animation to score on me. He gets so frustrated that he's always getting called for illegal screens but what do you expect when you're calling for picks before you even get to the 3-point line and trying to speed boost before your players are even in their offensive set lol

They should fix the pick & roll DEFENSE first and foremost and I'd even say lower the effectiveness of screens some to encourage people to actually do other things than hit L1/LB as soon as they cross halfcourt.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

That's interesting that people think the PNR needs work on the offensive end as I've always considered it to be way too effective due to the OP screen/brick wall animations and bad AI when defending screens.

Everyone just spams pick and rolls. My roommate is so dependent on it that he literally can't score any other way and thus will call upwards of 5-6 screens in ONE POSSESSION trying to get the right animation to score on me. He gets so frustrated that he's always getting called for illegal screens but what do you expect when you're calling for picks before you even get to the 3-point line and trying to speed boost before your players are even in their offensive set lol

They should fix the pick & roll DEFENSE first and foremost and I'd even say lower the effectiveness of screens some to encourage people to actually do other things than hit L1/LB as soon as they cross halfcourt.

Literally everyone left playing MyTeam. Just call a 5out play then spam dribble moves. When they find out that won't work against HOF defensive stoppers, its back to the tried and true "call 17 thousand screens until the game sucks the defender into a screen animation then immediately pull up for a 3". Don't know how many people will quit playing this series if they ever fix the pick and roll animations and defense

[2kVetRespect]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

That's interesting that people think the PNR needs work on the offensive end as I've always considered it to be way too effective due to the OP screen/brick wall animations and bad AI when defending screens.

Everyone just spams pick and rolls. My roommate is so dependent on it that he literally can't score any other way and thus will call upwards of 5-6 screens in ONE POSSESSION trying to get the right animation to score on me. He gets so frustrated that he's always getting called for illegal screens but what do you expect when you're calling for picks before you even get to the 3-point line and trying to speed boost before your players are even in their offensive set lol

They should fix the pick & roll DEFENSE first and foremost and I'd even say lower the effectiveness of screens some to encourage people to actually do other things than hit L1/LB as soon as they cross halfcourt.

You say, "spam," as if there is something wrong with calling the play over and over again. It's not illegal. It's not forbidden. Sounds to me like youre crying about it.

If you have 4 other teammates, why not put them to use. Everything aint about isolation. Some people want to use a pick to get to the hoop. Let them play their style because from the sounds of it, he knows the game a lot better than you do.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

You say, "spam," as if there is something wrong with calling the play over and over again. It's not illegal. It's not forbidden. Sounds to me like youre crying about it.

If you have 4 other teammates, why not put them to use. Everything aint about isolation. Some people want to use a pick to get to the hoop. Let them play their style because from the sounds of it, he knows the game a lot better than you do.

It's spam...people only use it, because the defender will get sucked into the screener and people will shoot the 3 as soon as the animation happens. In some cases, the screener will "pull the defender" towards the paint as he rolls towards the basket. It's CLEARLY an animation glitch that works against human defenders. The AI doesn't seem like they're impacted by the cheese.

Personally, I stopped caring in PNO games. I'll just go my setting change the universal settings to "Go Over", "Smoother", "Catch Hedge", "Stay Home", "Extend Pressure", and "Play Physical". Then I'll just play off-play defense the entire possession...I don't have time for one-dimensional players.

[TonyBake]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

You say, "spam," as if there is something wrong with calling the play over and over again. It's not illegal. It's not forbidden. Sounds to me like youre crying about it.

If you have 4 other teammates, why not put them to use. Everything aint about isolation. Some people want to use a pick to get to the hoop. Let them play their style because from the sounds of it, he knows the game a lot better than you do.

I guess "spam" isn't the best word because that implies that it's a cheese tactic when it's not. P&R is definitely stoppable with defensive settings and on-ball D. That doesn't mean the P&R isn't unbalanced in favor of the offense in this game though. It's not illegal to call picks over and over. I'll go into the post over and over if I realize my opponent can't stop slamming triangle trying to block me lol.

Like you said, "everything ain't about isolation" (but thanks for assuming that's how I play) but everything ain't about P&R too. What I was trying to say is that by balancing out P&R better, it could encourage people to try out more offensive tactics (plays, postups, freelances, etc.) and perhaps increase their ability to play the game. To me, if you're only able to score one way, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and frustration when you end up playing someone that knows how to stop you. Hence why my roommate hasn't beaten me in months because he can't get around my defensive settings (but thanks for assuming he "knows the game better")

I don't want people to change their playstyle (but thanks for assuming that as well). I want to play a game with balanced offense vs. defense mechanics.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

I guess "spam" isn't the best word because that implies that it's a cheese tactic when it's not. P&R is definitely stoppable with defensive settings and on-ball D. That doesn't mean the P&R isn't unbalanced in favor of the offense in this game though. It's not illegal to call picks over and over. I'll go into the post over and over if I realize my opponent can't stop slamming triangle trying to block me lol.

Like you said, "everything ain't about isolation" (but thanks for assuming that's how I play) but everything ain't about P&R too. What I was trying to say is that by balancing out P&R better, it could encourage people to try out more offensive tactics (plays, postups, freelances, etc.) and perhaps increase their ability to play the game. To me, if you're only able to score one way, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and frustration when you end up playing someone that knows how to stop you. Hence why my roommate hasn't beaten me in months because he can't get around my defensive settings (but thanks for assuming he "knows the game better")

I don't want people to change their playstyle (but thanks for assuming that as well). I want to play a game with balanced offense vs. defense mechanics.

IMO it seems like there is bit a miscommunication here;basically we should differentiate between a Pick and the Pick&Roll Play for conversational purposes.

I think the great majority would agree that the Pick animation by the screener is busted;the suction effect is out of control and it takes way too long for the defender to counter/pass it, even with Pick Dodger.This makes it way too easy to rely on repeated picks as a money play instead of forcing the player to use other tools available to them to create opportunities.

The issue that most people seem to take issue with on the offensive side is with the AI logic when calling the Pick and Roll Play itself; pick control can sometimes be overly touchy,there are a few too many times when the AI takes way too long to set up the play, and the AI pathing both when coming to set the pick and during the roll/pop afterwards can be mind numbingly poor at times.

As you said, I believe most people want a reasonably balanced experience on both sides of the ball.

[TonyBake]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

IMO it seems like there is bit a miscommunication here;basically we should differentiate between a Pick and the Pick&Roll Play for conversational purposes.

I think the great majority would agree that the Pick animation by the screener is busted;the suction effect is out of control and it takes way too long for the defender to counter/pass it, even with Pick Dodger.This makes it way too easy to rely on repeated picks as a money play instead of forcing the player to use other tools available to them to create opportunities.

The issue that most people seem to take issue with on the offensive side is with the AI logic when calling the Pick and Roll Play itself; pick control can sometimes be overly touchy,there are a few too many times when the AI takes way too long to set up the play, and the AI pathing both when coming to set the pick and during the roll/pop afterwards can be mind numbingly poor at times.

As you said, I believe most people want a reasonably balanced experience on both sides of the ball.

Ah very true. I should be differentiating between the two. I think I just haven't been because people don't really use the pick & roll for the "roll" or the fade most of the time but more to hide behind the pick for a 3, which I acknowledge is a more-than-viable tactic IRL and in-game, BUT it shouldn't be the only way people feel comfortable using picks. The pick & roll plays that are in the game are varied and help create the proper spacing to run P&R but they're hardly used.

From my experience the pathing seems to be fine on rolls, but I only pick & roll when the court is clear. I think people run into problems when they try to run a 2-man game and find their big rolling into traffic because the floor isn't spaced out well enough or because I've set up my help D/off-ball D to help out on P&R (screen help rotation, playing off on bad shooters, catch hedge, etc.). I also find that some, like my roommate, don't really try to "manipulate" the defense at all and use the ballhandler to create the angle for a pass to the roll man, something you have to do IRL to avoid turnovers/bad spacing and it works in 2K too.

I will say I wish they'd separate the "roll vs. fade" tendencies. Why is it just a sliding scale 0-100? They should have a roll tendency, fade mid tendency, and fade 3PT tendency. So people like Aldridge will stop fading to the 3-point line where they're ineffective lol.

[Deadthor132]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

Hmm, I do not even know what advice you can, I think the question of this post has already been opened

[MrWrestling3]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

Ah very true. I should be differentiating between the two. I think I just haven't been because people don't really use the pick & roll for the "roll" or the fade most of the time but more to hide behind the pick for a 3, which I acknowledge is a more-than-viable tactic IRL and in-game, BUT it shouldn't be the only way people feel comfortable using picks. The pick & roll plays that are in the game are varied and help create the proper spacing to run P&R but they're hardly used.

From my experience the pathing seems to be fine on rolls, but I only pick & roll when the court is clear. I think people run into problems when they try to run a 2-man game and find their big rolling into traffic because the floor isn't spaced out well enough or because I've set up my help D/off-ball D to help out on P&R (screen help rotation, playing off on bad shooters, catch hedge, etc.). I also find that some, like my roommate, don't really try to "manipulate" the defense at all and use the ballhandler to create the angle for a pass to the roll man, something you have to do IRL to avoid turnovers/bad spacing and it works in 2K too.

I will say I wish they'd separate the "roll vs. fade" tendencies. Why is it just a sliding scale 0-100? They should have a roll tendency, fade mid tendency, and fade 3PT tendency. So people like Aldridge will stop fading to the 3-point line where they're ineffective lol.

Good post.

I will fully agree that hiding behind the screen and shooting 3's all game is a problem, mostly due to the overdone suction effect of the screen plus Pick Dodger not being as effective as it could be making it far too reliable of a tactic.I think the game would be in a better state if players were rewarded for using all the tools in their offensive toolbox instead.

Pathing issues mostly show up on certain plays;usually the issue is that the ball handler is freed up but the roll man will insist on turning it into a parallel PnR(which turns the play into a mess) instead of letting the handler go for the easy bucket.I sometimes run into a similar issue on plays involving double screens.

I also agree with your point about fade tendencies;it is very hard to get the fade man to pop for a mid range instead of running to the arc,which is definitely a problem.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

Another issue I have is that the screener immediately rolls or pops after the defender makes contact, even if you as the ball handler haven't actually used the screen yet. The screener should keep screening until you actually want him to stop.

I still feel that Live 09 had the best P&R controls to date. It was simple but effective, and very easy to control. It just worked properly for the most part.

On the defensive end, I think a lot of the struggle could be mitigated by introducing a manual switch option. If you get caught on a screen, you should be able to tell your AI teammate to switch onto the roll man, or if your AI teammate gets caught, you should be able to take the ball handler and have them switch to the screener at will. That should be possible to do off the ball as well.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: Pick and Roll has never worked properly in 2k

Another issue I have is that the screener immediately rolls or pops after the defender makes contact, even if you as the ball handler haven't actually used the screen yet. The screener should keep screening until you actually want him to stop.

I still feel that Live 09 had the best P&R controls to date. It was simple but effective, and very easy to control. It just worked properly for the most part.

On the defensive end, I think a lot of the struggle could be mitigated by introducing a manual switch option. If you get caught on a screen, you should be able to tell your AI teammate to switch onto the roll man, or if your AI teammate gets caught, you should be able to take the ball handler and have them switch to the screener at will. That should be possible to do off the ball as well.

Basically allowing the player to become engaged in defensive communications, I like this idea.