2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

[Peaceful dash 88]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

As much as I agree.... I think you guys forget. It's a video game.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I doubt if anyone of us forgot that it's a video game.
We just speaking on the games mechanics and areas we would like to see improvement in.

2k has always pride itself as the #1 basketball simulation on the market so when we speak to the simulation aspect being a bit lacking in certain areas of the game, I see nothing wrong with that type of discussion because 2k is known for its authentic approach to creating a simulation of a sports in the form of a video game.

Almost all the things that I've asked to be implemented gameplay wise (for balancing proposes) has been done before (at one time or another) in a basketball game.

[jeebs9]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

Not really, at least not in my case anyway.I'm not even exceptionally against letting people go on Park or whatever and just ball out;all I want is to also be able to just hop online and play with and against people in a more realistic NBA style without it being a chore to set up.

I doubt if anyone of us forgot that it's a video game.
We just speaking on the games mechanics and areas we would like to see improvement in.

2k has always pride itself as the #1 basketball simulation on the market so when we speak to the simulation aspect being a bit lacking in certain areas of the game, I see nothing wrong with that type of discussion because 2k is known for its authentic approach to creating a simulation of a sports in the form of a video game.

Almost all the things that I've asked to be implemented gameplay wise (for balancing proposes) has been done before (at one time or another) in a basketball game.

You guys think 2K is just sitting on their thumbs? Come on. You can't just crumble what's built. That's why 2k is the best and has been the best. They do small-little tweaks. What you guys are talking can't just throw into the game just like that lol. Especially with money being on the line now. Each improvement has to fit.

Also I get it. We're having health conversation. But this is the second "open" thread lol

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[MrWrestling3]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

You guys think 2K is just sitting on their thumbs? Come on. You can't just crumble what's built. That's why 2k is the best and has been the best. They do small-little tweaks. What you guys are talking can't just throw into the game just like that lol. Especially with money being on the line now. Each improvement has to fit.

Also I get it. We're having health conversation. But this is the second "open" thread lol

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

For sure,I get it. I'm definitely not expecting to wake up tomorrow and 2K is like "We took all your suggestions! Huge patch incoming!" lol

[Peaceful dash 88]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

You guys think 2K is just sitting on their thumbs? Come on. You can't just crumble what's built. That's why 2k is the best and has been the best. They do small-little tweaks. What you guys are talking can't just throw into the game just like that lol. Especially with money being on the line now. Each improvement has to fit.

Also I get it. We're having health conversation. But this is the second "open" thread lol

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

I agree. Nba 2k is the best sports game on the planet hands down, the quality is unmatched by any sports game making company period.

It's held to a (much) more higher standard than madden at this point IMO but, you really can't blame the passionate sim heads (who's purchasing the game year after year because of the quality of sim that 2k delivers) for critiquing gameplay mechanics that makes play less sim or suggesting what gameplay mechanics they would like to see implemented that could help or improve gameplay.

2k is not perfect and I know this but, 2k gets way more right than what they may get wrong and as a diehard bball fan I'm extremely grateful of that, that's why I've purchased every year.

[Kushmir]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

You guys think 2K is just sitting on their thumbs? Come on. You can't just crumble what's built. That's why 2k is the best and has been the best. They do small-little tweaks. What you guys are talking can't just throw into the game just like that lol. Especially with money being on the line now. Each improvement has to fit.

Also I get it. We're having health conversation. But this is the second "open" thread lol

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Come now. No one even implied that.....NOT REMOTELY. Guys are discussing mechanics (most of them legacy) that need some attention.

FYI: Guys who can read frame data combined with green releases can literally break the game. Even more reasons why green releases are horrible for gameplay.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

Come now. No one even implied that.....NOT REMOTELY. Guys are discussing mechanics (most of them legacy) that need some attention.

FYI: Guys who can read frame data combined with green releases can literally break the game. Even more reasons why green releases are horrible for gameplay.

Bolded the important part...for the most part it's been things which have been around for years.

I get that 2K only has limited resources and a tight development window so I don't expect instant change;I don't think that makes it in anyway taboo to discuss some things that have been needing attention for a while now, as long you're being reasonable about it.If you ask me, I think it's the best way to move forward.

[ILLSmak]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

Re: Green releases. Basketball is mathematical by nature, as it is a physics based game. Just because you've "felt" good, doesn't mean it was perfect. You don't miss "perfect" shots. Perfect by definition, cannot fail. The rim and ball don't change in real life, all misses are due to shooter mechanics. It's why they can build robots that can shoot 100%. If you actually shoot the perfect shot, mathematically, it will go in every time. It's why the best shooters ever have such perfect looking jump shots that can be consistently replicated. It's the reason why Steph Curry knows when he can turn around and look at the bench before a shot even starts it's downward trajectory. That's a real life green release. I believe people just hate the game-y idea of it, but it's absolutely based in reality. Players who take the time to nail releases of great shooters should be rewarded.

ok. I gotta stop coming to OS. haha Let's imagine.



Imagine you built a robot that could make 100% of its shots and resembled a human. Then send that robot off a curl, let someone grab its jersey, a little forearm push when they are beginning their shot motion, that shot rims out. Let that robot play 20,000 minutes of NBA basketball un-changed and see if it continues to make 100% of a shot.



Yes, you can launch a missile and hit a target. That does not reflect on basketball. The idea of perfect releases appealed to me because I used to get all kinds of excellent releases and I realized that for some shots, you would make more with a non-excellent release. That bothered me a lot.


A person has to catch the ball, fatigue is a factor, short term and long term fatigue, pressure is a factor, the defense is a factor, minor injuries are a factor. You can't compare that to some robot you calculated to make shots from a spot. Even if the robot was able to make shots from anywhere at any time, you'd think an NBA athlete defender would be blocking its shots over and over. And if not, the trajectory of its shot would be so unrealistic that it could not be compared to a real player.



That's why, for instance... you think of these 'greatest shooters ever', why 90% is a huge number from the FT Line. A shot they've probably shot 100,000 times, no one is guarding them, they get time to prepare, breathe etc. Steph hits 90 percent. Cool. Klay, the guy who can get you 30 in a quarter and has one of the wettest shots in NBA history, shoots 85ish. And they shoot like 5 FTs a game haha. And play like 33 minutes which is, historically, a very low number.



The reason why basketball is interesting is because you can't be perfect. You can't even be consistent. You'd think even if Steph Curry was not able to shoot perfectly, he'd be able to make a consistent 40% of threes. But he doesn't, some games he's bricking, some games he's wet. And yeah, when you get in the zone.



One last thing is like... with a home run or whatever, a three pointer, a long pass in football... yeah AFTER it's over you can observe it and be like wow that's in. Or that's a home run, that's gonna lead him perfectly for the TD over the defender. You might not always be right, but probably are right a lot of the time. But that's an issue of perception. It's not like Curry was like MY FORM WAS PERFECT as the ball is on his fingertips ITS GOIN IN. No, but you can tell by how it looks.



And as we all know, you can judge a shot as really off and somehow it goes in. So, not only can you not perfectly perform an action, but you can't perfectly judge the outcome immediately after. To say you can is crazy. I feel like people are going the extra mile to 'make it realistic', but it's not.



It's just not... and as I said, that's coming from an early proponent of the 'perfect release' = 100%.



-Smak

[zrohman]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

Re: Green releases. Basketball is mathematical by nature, as it is a physics based game. Just because you've "felt" good, doesn't mean it was perfect. You don't miss "perfect" shots. Perfect by definition, cannot fail. The rim and ball don't change in real life, all misses are due to shooter mechanics. It's why they can build robots that can shoot 100%. If you actually shoot the perfect shot, mathematically, it will go in every time. It's why the best shooters ever have such perfect looking jump shots that can be consistently replicated. It's the reason why Steph Curry knows when he can turn around and look at the bench before a shot even starts it's downward trajectory. That's a real life green release. I believe people just hate the game-y idea of it, but it's absolutely based in reality. Players who take the time to nail releases of great shooters should be rewarded.

I also love badges. They separate players who may be similarly skilled, but can apply those skills differently. Let's say Klay and Steph both have 99 off dribble 3 ratings. The ability to dribble down the court and pop an open fastbreak 3 with either one would be based on that rating. I trust both to consistently nail that shot. However that same 3, shot off the pick and roll, or a fading three off a behind the back dribble would also technically be based off that rating. We both know Steph>Klay in those scenarios. Which is why Steph has P&R maestro, and a higher difficult shots badge than Klay. Same with rebounding. Some guys get 10 boards a game because they're big and have decent fundamentals, but a guy like Westbrook or Montrezl Harrell is getting those rebounds in a completely different manner. Badging can account for that.

Now onto negatives just in case I seem like a 2K apologist lol. One mechanic I hope they address is how regimented the CPU is. I understand tendencies and gameplan, but certain things make them way to easy to guard. Inbound plays that are guaranteed steals if you've played the game more than twice because they seem to be hard-coded to pass it to the same guy 98% of the time regardless of the defense. Forcing a gameplan that's not working. I remember playing domination early this year and D'Angelo Russell tried to exploit my Kyrie in the post. It worked twice, maybe, but after I adjusted to stop it, there wasn't an adjustment. Even once he got the snowflake icon, he kept trying until he was subbed out.

I'd also like them to do a better job of preventing cheesy strategies from being as effective as real basketball. If it wouldn't be consistently successful IRL, make it so in the game. If you tried to full court press an NBA team for an extended period of time, or early in the game, they'd blow you off the floor. Continuously reaching or poorly timed blocks should take the defender out of the play. I hate getting blocked after I get a guy up in the air with a fake, but he's able to jump right back up, especially bigs that aren't athletic. I've already seen signs in leaked gameplay that bigs are significantly slower, so I hope that takes care of that.

Uninterruptible dunk animations need to be significantly toned down. If I want to jump for a block, let me. I don't care if it sends him to the line. Hell, add a timing penalty that'll give me a flagrant if I try and get it wrong. Which ties into my last point.

I don't know if it's input lag, a glitch, or what, but pressing a button and not having your player perform the action that button is tied to, it's completely infuriating. If i double tap the shot button to go for a spin gather, that's what I want. Not some weird contextual floater, or some janky jumpshot animation. I'd rather fail at something I tried than succeed at something I didn't. Let me be in full control. If I go for it at the wrong time and get punished, I'm completely okay with that, but don't bail me out, or throw off my timing because my player just decided he knows what's best. If I wanted to see that, I'd let the CPU play for me.

You said exactly what I was saying in another thread! But you put it better. The rim doesn't move and stays the same size, just because a shot feels good doesn't make it perfect, but there is such a thing, hence why a robot can make 100% of its shots.

Great points

[isdatyt]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

ok. I gotta stop coming to OS. haha Let's imagine.



Imagine you built a robot that could make 100% of its shots and resembled a human. Then send that robot off a curl, let someone grab its jersey, a little forearm push when they are beginning their shot motion, that shot rims out. Let that robot play 20,000 minutes of NBA basketball un-changed and see if it continues to make 100% of a shot.



Yes, you can launch a missile and hit a target. That does not reflect on basketball. The idea of perfect releases appealed to me because I used to get all kinds of excellent releases and I realized that for some shots, you would make more with a non-excellent release. That bothered me a lot.


A person has to catch the ball, fatigue is a factor, short term and long term fatigue, pressure is a factor, the defense is a factor, minor injuries are a factor. You can't compare that to some robot you calculated to make shots from a spot. Even if the robot was able to make shots from anywhere at any time, you'd think an NBA athlete defender would be blocking its shots over and over. And if not, the trajectory of its shot would be so unrealistic that it could not be compared to a real player.



That's why, for instance... you think of these 'greatest shooters ever', why 90% is a huge number from the FT Line. A shot they've probably shot 100,000 times, no one is guarding them, they get time to prepare, breathe etc. Steph hits 90 percent. Cool. Klay, the guy who can get you 30 in a quarter and has one of the wettest shots in NBA history, shoots 85ish. And they shoot like 5 FTs a game haha. And play like 33 minutes which is, historically, a very low number.



The reason why basketball is interesting is because you can't be perfect. You can't even be consistent. You'd think even if Steph Curry was not able to shoot perfectly, he'd be able to make a consistent 40% of threes. But he doesn't, some games he's bricking, some games he's wet. And yeah, when you get in the zone.



One last thing is like... with a home run or whatever, a three pointer, a long pass in football... yeah AFTER it's over you can observe it and be like wow that's in. Or that's a home run, that's gonna lead him perfectly for the TD over the defender. You might not always be right, but probably are right a lot of the time. But that's an issue of perception. It's not like Curry was like MY FORM WAS PERFECT as the ball is on his fingertips ITS GOIN IN. No, but you can tell by how it looks.



And as we all know, you can judge a shot as really off and somehow it goes in. So, not only can you not perfectly perform an action, but you can't perfectly judge the outcome immediately after. To say you can is crazy. I feel like people are going the extra mile to 'make it realistic', but it's not.



It's just not... and as I said, that's coming from an early proponent of the 'perfect release' = 100%.



-Smak

If you shoot the ball perfectly, it will go in. That's my main point and you didn't disprove it at all, you just mentioned scenarios where it'd be harder to get that perfect release. Which, I retort, is accounted for in game. It's much harder to green a contested, off-balance three than a wide open spot up, and it's very difficult to replicate greens consistently in those scenarios. Some aren't even possible (Can't green heavily contested jumpers)

You can absolutely know if your shot is on or off as soon as you release, with pretty good consistency if you're a true shooter. Sure, I don't always call them right, but I have a good enough feel with my shot to call out the result as in or off about 80% of the time. I can imagine that's even more accurate for a guy who does that for a living.

Greens replicate the timing, for each animation, there is a green window where you should release the shot. Assuming the animation is consistent, considering we can't control our players individual limbs, it has to be openness and timing based. On the times you get that perfect, you should be rewarded.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

You said exactly what I was saying in another thread! But you put it better. The rim doesn't move and stays the same size, just because a shot feels good doesn't make it perfect, but there is such a thing, hence why a robot can make 100% of its shots.

Great points

I don't think anyone disputes that the possibility can exist; I think what people are trying to say is that under RL game conditions it is not something that could be consistently replicated by any player over time, and most certainly not to the degree which it occurs in 2K.

If you shoot the ball perfectly, it will go in. That's my main point and you didn't disprove it at all, you just mentioned scenarios where it'd be harder to get that perfect release. Which, I retort, is accounted for in game. It's much harder to green a contested, off-balance three than a wide open spot up, and it's very difficult to replicate greens consistently in those scenarios. Some aren't even possible (Can't green heavily contested jumpers)

You can absolutely know if your shot is on or off as soon as you release, with pretty good consistency if you're a true shooter. Sure, I don't always call them right, but I have a good enough feel with my shot to call out the result as in or off about 80% of the time. I can imagine that's even more accurate for a guy who does that for a living.

Greens replicate the timing, for each animation, there is a green window where you should release the shot. Assuming the animation is consistent, considering we can't control our players individual limbs, it has to be openness and timing based. On the times you get that perfect, you should be rewarded.

You admit that it is not an exact science;you can by feel predict a shot with 80% accuracy...While I agree that NBA players could be even more accurate than 80%, I think I can still be said that NO human being on earth is capable of 100% accuracy for more than a short stretch under practical conditions.

Steph Curry is the guy most would probably say is the most elite shooter; a cursory search of Youtube turned this up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnG-2ySU26I

Several examples of what most 2K players would probably think of as automatic for Steph....but.....oops.....seems like sometimes even sure things don't go the way you thought they would.

Now I'm not saying 2K players need to be needlessly bricking it on the regular for the sake of "realism".What I am saying is just as there is always a chance,however small, that an ugly off balance 2 hands in the face half court chuck up by Shaq might go in, there should also be a chance, however small, that even the smoothest shot might hit a weird spot on the rim or whatever and not fall.This is especially true in the case of 2K where the perfect release is far more replicatable than it is IRL.

[zrohman]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

I don't think anyone disputes that the possibility can exist; I think what people are trying to say is that under RL game conditions it is not something that could be consistently replicated by any player over time, and most certainly not to the degree which it occurs in 2K.



You admit that it is not an exact science;you can by feel predict a shot with 80% accuracy...While I agree that NBA players could be even more accurate than 80%, I think I can still be said that NO human being on earth is capable of 100% accuracy for more than a short stretch under practical conditions.

Steph Curry is the guy most would probably say is the most elite shooter; a cursory search of Youtube turned this up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnG-2ySU26I

Several examples of what most 2K players would probably think of as automatic for Steph....but.....oops.....seems like sometimes even sure things don't go the way you thought they would.

Now I'm not saying 2K players need to be needlessly bricking it on the regular for the sake of "realism".What I am saying is just as there is always a chance,however small, that an ugly off balance 2 hands in the face half court chuck up by Shaq might go in, there should also be a chance, however small, that even the smoothest shot might hit a weird spot on the rim or whatever and not fall.This is especially true in the case of 2K where the perfect release is far more replicatable than it is IRL.

What your saying is true in a sense.

If we admit that a perfect shot exists, and that we should be rewarded for hitting a perfect shot, the debate then goes to how often?

Should they increase the difficulty for hitting that "perfect shot". I would say yes. I saw a guy making a video on how to make a slasher with 53 3 point shooting consistently hit greenies, and he did. A 53 rated 3 point shooter should have as much a chance of hitting a greenir as they do hitting the lottery, so this needs to be tuned for sure.

Also, if they are going to let everyone buy their way to a 90 plus rating, and everyone is over 90 plus, everyone will be making a crazy amount of shots, they may have to bring 90 plus rated players down to earth to account for their ratings being so boosted.

Also. Boosts should be eliminated from the game. They are unrealistic and stupid

[MrWrestling3]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

What your saying is true in a sense.

If we admit that a perfect shot exists, and that we should be rewarded for hitting a perfect shot, the debate then goes to how often?

Should they increase the difficulty for hitting that "perfect shot". I would say yes. I saw a guy making a video on how to make a slasher with 53 3 point shooting consistently hit greenies, and he did. A 53 rated 3 point shooter should have as much a chance of hitting a greenir as they do hitting the lottery, so this needs to be tuned for sure.

Also, if they are going to let everyone buy their way to a 90 plus rating, and everyone is over 90 plus, everyone will be making a crazy amount of shots, they may have to bring 90 plus rated players down to earth to account for their ratings being so boosted.

Also. Boosts should be eliminated from the game. They are unrealistic and stupid

I can agree with that, the issue with greens is that they are too easy to perform for them to be a guaranteed make.

You can either let them remain 100% accurate and make them fairly rare as you suggest, or keep the rate relatively the same and instead make them a modest boost to percentage and cap the max at 99.9% or something.

It would seem to me that we've just been taking two different angles to the problem,which caused some confusion.This is why open discussion is important.

[triplechin]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

My stance - Greens are far too easy to be a guaranteed make. If the NBA operated like 2k does, they would change the rules because the game would be too boring. Greens need to be significantly harder, or need to just maximize your rating rather than letting anyone go above their rating.

Badges are terribly implemented. There shouldn't be badges for anything that can be covered by ratings. They clearly can't balance all of these extra layers adding onto the gameplay. Boosts too just make things worse.

We at least need a hardcore mode with no greens, badges, and boosts. Play a more realistic game where the gameplay can be a little more varied.

[ILLSmak]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

If you shoot the ball perfectly, it will go in. That's my main point and you didn't disprove it at all, you just mentioned scenarios where it'd be harder to get that perfect release. Which, I retort, is accounted for in game. It's much harder to green a contested, off-balance three than a wide open spot up, and it's very difficult to replicate greens consistently in those scenarios. Some aren't even possible (Can't green heavily contested jumpers)

You can absolutely know if your shot is on or off as soon as you release, with pretty good consistency if you're a true shooter. Sure, I don't always call them right, but I have a good enough feel with my shot to call out the result as in or off about 80% of the time. I can imagine that's even more accurate for a guy who does that for a living.

Greens replicate the timing, for each animation, there is a green window where you should release the shot. Assuming the animation is consistent, considering we can't control our players individual limbs, it has to be openness and timing based. On the times you get that perfect, you should be rewarded.

If you swish a shot was it perfect? Tons of shots are made how do we know which is released perfectly? Some people double pump almost fading to the ground to get a shot off and make it.



You know it's in because you can look at the ball after you released it. Haha. If you are looking at the ball before you complete your shooting motion, you're not shooting properly.



If a shot is perfect it goes in is like a philosophical argument to which you can reply "then how was it perfect!??" however it you say if you release a shot perfectly it will always go in, I will say that's not true. That's what I'm getting at. Too much variance and each shot is a little different.



Shot makers make shots cuz they know how to put the ball in the hoop in suboptimal circumstances.



-Smak

[ILLSmak]

Re: 2k Mechanics Open Discussion Thread

Yknow maybe you can, but I don't think you can. Don't take that the wrong way, it's just not how I understand things. Basically the way to prove you can know is to close your eyes during the last little bit of your shot and say in/out and tally it up. You're a shooter so it should not really affect you, not like you're going to pull the string after you close your eyes for a sec. But in my unscientific opinion once you are feeling how your shot is in, you are perceiving it. Don't underestimate our brains and how much info we can glean from just a ball a few feet out of our hands out of the corner of our eye. But just on release I don't think you can know.



-Smak