2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

[Kushmir]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Not quite a fair comparison at all.

A big hit is a absolute tackle , you miss the big hit you miss the tackle.

A block isn’t the absolute form of contest.

Many would disagree. A block to many is the equivalent of a Hit Stick in Madden. It has high Reward--the Risk must be equally high.

But In that very video after missing the block the defender still gets up at a second time with his hand raised , still in your space , and is vertical so there is no foul, which is still contesting the shot .....If he didn’t extend his arm and jump a second time then you’re 100% correct.

Here you're describing a contest man...that's the less risk/reward option where you don't leave your feet. Gets up a second time? Aside from that PogoStick badge (which i'm not a fan of) IMO second chances should be rare--I'm not the authority but I think a balanced game has your momentum taking you out of the play like Giannis and Adams below when you miss a block:

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Your idea of thinking is basically , “you missed the block so my shot should go in”

Not at all. Skill level will determine if the offensive user scores. But I do believe a defender who misses a block is either out of the play or whistled...which you haven't mentioned at all. Do defenders who get fooled on pump fakes for instance, no longer make contact and foul? Thats a much more realistic outcome don't you think? Mullligans are bad.

Again--real life and gaming don't always mesh. Authenticity is the goal but BALANCE comes first. Anyone who hoops knows people don't throw the ball the length of the court every play. But they do in 2K. Balance.

Gaming is about counters at its core. You put one user in a classic No-Win-Scenario when you want defensive mechanics that have no downside. One of the 10 H2H Commandments is Demand the same level of Skill from each user--you're shattering that.

[AndreSwagassi86]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Many would disagree. A block to many is the equivalent of a Hit Stick in Madden. It has high Reward--the Risk must be equally high.



Here you're describing a contest man...that's the less risk/reward option where you don't leave your feet. Gets up a second time? Aside from that PogoStick badge (which i'm not a fan of) IMO second chances should be rare--I'm not the authority but I think a balanced game has your momentum taking you out of the play like Giannis and Adams below when you miss a block:

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Not at all. Skill level will determine if the offensive user scores. But I do believe a defender who misses a block is either out of the play or whistled...which you haven't mentioned at all. Do defenders who get fooled on pump fakes for instance, no longer make contact and foul? Thats a much more realistic outcome don't you think? Mullligans are bad.

Again--real life and gaming don't always mesh. Authenticity is the goal but BALANCE comes first. Anyone who hoops knows people don't throw the ball the length of the court every play. But they do in 2K. Balance.

Gaming is about counters at its core. You put one user in a classic No-Win-Scenario when you want defensive mechanics that have no downside. One of the 10 H2H Commandments is Demand the same level of Skill from each user--you're shattering that.

If a block is equivalent to a hit stick tackle to folks then......smh

The only way to stop an ongoing runner in football is to tackle him(or make him fumble) if you miss any type of tackle the play is still alive.

I don’t have to block your shot to make you miss in basketball ... a hand in face, body contact, simply being taller than a shooter and in his shooting area could cause a miss which is why they can’t be compared. Plus there’s 1 hitstick. I don’t necessarily have to run full speed towards you or jump my highest to block your shot.

you’re also not putting a user in a no win scenario , there are risks to taking a contested shot also. It’s basketball

You could’ve very well drew the foul going up instead of Pump faking in the previous vid we’re discussing. I do it all the time. But his second jump attempt wasn’t a foul because the defender goes straight up.

To say if you attempt a block and miss you should be totally out of the play then takes away from the different defensive mechanics.

In the vid with Giannis and Adams momentum is taking them out of the play, (running with turbo and blocking) which is obvious by the animation.

In the previous vid we were discussing with Embiid the defender leftmost is taken out of the play with the aggressive block but the defender who was in the face of Embiid recovers quicker which indicates the defender just Taps the jump button ( that’s a mechanic that allows to dictate the aggressiveness of a block because if you’re too aggressive recovery is harder. ) I don’t think it was pogo stick but pogo stick is there for those light button tap block attempts)

Drawing a foul on blockers is very possible in 2K with Timing. It wasn’t mentioned because it wasn’t done... verticality rule gives the adv to the defender if he’s jumping straight up.

Balance is necessary yes, it’s just this case isn’t an issue of balance and the system is working fine according to basketball.

People don’t throw the ball the length of the court in real life because defense is played. How successful is full court heaves against skillful players ? The success rate is very low.




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[Kushmir]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

I don’t have to block your shot to make you miss in basketball ... a hand in face, body contact, simply being taller than a shooter and in his shooting area could cause a miss.

Bingo. A la the contest in NBA 2K.

You could’ve very well drew the foul going up instead of Pump faking in the previous vid we’re discussing. I do it all the time. But his second jump attempt wasn’t a foul because the defender goes straight up.

Keep in mind I never said they fouled me there. I said that missing a block should have high foul outcomes (especially for Huerter) otherwise you allow users to spam block and base strategies around Neutral Outcomes. And you're right again--you can draw fouls much better this year. You have to forgive me, 2K has allowed guys to come down on you for awhile...it still happens now--just to a lesser degree. Force of habit. [emoji23]

To say if you attempt a block and miss you should be totally out of the play then takes away from the different defensive mechanics.

Ehhhh....I dunno about that. I just think that's proper balance in gaming. Otherwise you encourage spam.

In the vid with Giannis and Adams momentum is taking them out of the play, (running with turbo and blocking) which is obvious by the animation.

Not really. Horford stays in the area but his momentum takes him out of the play here.

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Balance is necessary yes, it’s just this case isn’t an issue of balance and the system is working fine according to basketball.

We differ here...its not a big deal--we just do. You like a block system that suits your play-style. I'm saying mechanics like that are unbalanced and hurt the game.

[infemous]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

I have adjusted to the contest changes on the perimeter, but the interior contesting is sooooooo random.

For perimeter contests, I have good success as long as I am right on the shooter. If I press block too close, my player will jump but pull the hand back before swatting the ball (probably badge related) but if I flick the right stick up, its a miss every time (gold intimidator).

I jump for blocks if I am sagging a little and I know the contest is useless so I go for a block and it can work on shorter guys, have had some nice blocks.

But contesting shots in the paint is simply random.

I can body up a Centre and be literally inside him (due to clipping) and they will make the 100% contested layup. Small guards can just run into a traffic of 3 guys and still make crazy layups.

Yet I also see instances of the same centre that finished on my head blowing a layup because a short player has jumped into him.

Pressing block in the paint is the only way to ensure that a good contest registers. At the very worst, you will give up a foul, but they won't make the shot, unlike on Right Stick, where you can have a perfect contest, and you will give up the And1.

This needs balancing desperately.

It makes Pogo stick a valuable badge but only because it allows you to spam block in the paint because playing actual good defense is penalised by the new mechanics.

Personally I think it was due to the inclusion of the finishing badges to allow small players to make plays in the paint, but the real key is simply to have way more natural looking animations that allow smaller players to get around defenders in the paint.

Currently it looks broken because they have the same contested animations as 2k19 that were certi misses going in now due to badges.

Leaves me confused about what the actual mechanic is supposed to be.

A chasedown block is better defense on a small guard than standing in the paint and holding up on the right stick. That has to change.

[AndreSwagassi86]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Bingo. A la the contest in NBA 2K.



Keep in mind I never said they fouled me there. I said that missing a block should have high foul outcomes (especially for Huerter) otherwise you allow users to spam block and base strategies around Neutral Outcomes. And you're right again--you can draw fouls much better this year. You have to forgive me, 2K has allowed guys to come down on you for awhile...it still happens now--just to a lesser degree. Force of habit. [emoji23]



Ehhhh....I dunno about that. I just think that's proper balance in gaming. Otherwise you encourage spam.



Not really. Horford stays in the area but his momentum takes him out of the play here.

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We differ here...its not a big deal--we just do. You like a block system that suits your play-style. I'm saying mechanics like that are unbalanced and hurt the game.

Trust me I dig all that you’re saying. Although we disagree I’m not at all downplaying what you’re suggesting or emphasizing. Just providing different perspective.

I get what you mean totally to eliminate spam / cheese. But I guess that’s the development dilemma. Because In sports games you have to pick and choose between realism or balance.




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[AndreSwagassi86]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

I have adjusted to the contest changes on the perimeter, but the interior contesting is sooooooo random.



For perimeter contests, I have good success as long as I am right on the shooter. If I press block too close, my player will jump but pull the hand back before swatting the ball (probably badge related) but if I flick the right stick up, its a miss every time (gold intimidator).



I jump for blocks if I am sagging a little and I know the contest is useless so I go for a block and it can work on shorter guys, have had some nice blocks.



But contesting shots in the paint is simply random.



I can body up a Centre and be literally inside him (due to clipping) and they will make the 100% contested layup. Small guards can just run into a traffic of 3 guys and still make crazy layups.



Yet I also see instances of the same centre that finished on my head blowing a layup because a short player has jumped into him.



Pressing block in the paint is the only way to ensure that a good contest registers. At the very worst, you will give up a foul, but they won't make the shot, unlike on Right Stick, where you can have a perfect contest, and you will give up the And1.



This needs balancing desperately.



It makes Pogo stick a valuable badge but only because it allows you to spam block in the paint because playing actual good defense is penalised by the new mechanics.



Personally I think it was due to the inclusion of the finishing badges to allow small players to make plays in the paint, but the real key is simply to have way more natural looking animations that allow smaller players to get around defenders in the paint.



Currently it looks broken because they have the same contested animations as 2k19 that were certi misses going in now due to badges.



Leaves me confused about what the actual mechanic is supposed to be.



A chasedown block is better defense on a small guard than standing in the paint and holding up on the right stick. That has to change.

A right stick contest (hands up) in the paint isn’t going to do much in terms of keeping the ball out the rim and can still lead to a foul with contact if you’re in the restricted area. (This is seen in real life often)

Like you stating jumping for the block gives the best contest because attempting a block is the best form of contesting a shot. The risk though is a higher chance at a foul.

I say the randomness is due to the closeness of the shot. We’ve all probably seen an nba game on tv where the defense is smothering and it still goes in.

I would only in this case ask to check consistency on your end. Does this happen often? I haven’t seen it on my end. But maybe you have everyone’s experience is different

Because the mechanics provide realism at its closest but consistency or inconsistencies can mess it all up.


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[Kushmir]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Trust me I dig all that you’re saying. Although we disagree I’m not at all downplaying what you’re suggesting or emphasizing. Just providing different perspective.

I get what you mean totally to eliminate spam / cheese. But I guess that’s the development dilemma. Because In sports games you have to pick and choose between realism or balance.

For sure, here's a reaction animations I saw earlier for more clarity. First Russell's steal attempt misses (FYI this animation is really important--if it triggers enough it really punishes people for steal attempts while guys are moving and in general)

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Notice I dont abuse sprint--thats important here because you'll see he catches back up and goes for another steal from behind which makes me stumble. That's a reaction animation and here's why it can't happen:

Because its a Neutral Outcome - One user does an action and there's no obvious Reward/Punishment. It may look authentic/innocent but its anything but--what it does is slow me down. Unless a foul is getting called you cant allow the defense to impede movement or get tertiary rewards for failure....he missed a steal, there can't be any benefits from that, why? because Draymond is lurking and he literally just misses a block. Lets not forget in 2K20 he can do this:

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Elite users POUNCE on loopholes like that. They'll keep spamming steal anytime they get beat to slow down the other user/switch to another defender and defend the rim. Its why the tertiary benefits of guessing wrong is never a valid discussion. Thats how exploits are created.

[Siruss]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

My two players are playmaking PG and a Rebounding C. This year my first focus was the PG Playmaking/Finishing (Slasher).

He's up to 93 overall and I have some more badges to get in Giant Slayer/Acrobat/etc.. BUT what I wanted to say is that I played a ton of Career games and also got into Rec/ProAm settings. What you can do with this build is absolutely cheese the D, I noticed it in career and its worse vs players. I just do some dribbles, cut to the lane, start an animation right outside the paint vs 1+ defenders and the result is 1) made it via dunk or layup 2) blocked 3) foul if I get the right animation. The point is: Going for a block and missing is almost 100% a foul. There are much higher contests just using RS however vs a player, they just drive baseline.. The cheese part is it is considered "open lane" so if we try to stop him, we get a Flagrant. Guy fouled out 3 players in 2 games just getting Flagrants on them (one guy got 3 in a game, even the AI got one).

I don't want to talk about the cheese of it but I agree that with badges, smaller players have a much easier time of working close to the basket and gaining a positive outcome. At lower levels, contact plays a huge factor. But the mix of giant slayer/slithery finisher/acrobat/consistent finisher all totally negate everything a big can do EXCEPT literally just put a hand on the ball and block it.. Even that is made more difficult by giant slayer. (not sure if intimidator on HOF will basically cancel that or not)

This is why I went for this build initially when theorycrafting. There was too much a guard can do to counteract the larger players advantage. There are so many builds that make players better at what they do and can control, but this type of stuff just negates so much of the numbers/calculations of what ANOTHER player can do defensively. Pure Rim protectors are the only thing I feel has a chance.

So that being said now I'm working on my C and seeing it from the other side. If you are slightly off on your body position, you don't get any contest. So the only true defense is actually putting a hand on the ball.. But unfortunately I think that is why although it can punish you, it does not as much as it should. It would be impossible to guard if you were worthless after missing a block.

[infemous]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

A right stick contest (hands up) in the paint isn’t going to do much in terms of keeping the ball out the rim and can still lead to a foul with contact if you’re in the restricted area. (This is seen in real life often)

Like you stating jumping for the block gives the best contest because attempting a block is the best form of contesting a shot. The risk though is a higher chance at a foul.

I say the randomness is due to the closeness of the shot. We’ve all probably seen an nba game on tv where the defense is smothering and it still goes in.

I would only in this case ask to check consistency on your end. Does this happen often? I haven’t seen it on my end. But maybe you have everyone’s experience is different

Because the mechanics provide realism at its closest but consistency or inconsistencies can mess it all up.


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What I'm saying is that while a block is the better play, being between the basket and the ball is always better defense than trailing, but 2k has this wrong.

And I also find that I have a higher chance of a foul just standing with my hands up than if I go for a block, as typically, I'm protecting the paint with someone who can actually make the block while I'll use contest for a smaller player who is switched or helping.

And yes the randomness is fine, but the problem is that visually, the feedback doesn't illustrate accurate circumstances for these random moments.

When John Wall jumps around a defender to make an acrobatic layup, you can see that it is his extension, his athleticism and his touch that allows him to wrap his arm around the defender and flick it off the glass.

In 2k, the same situation can lead to your player literally glitching through the defender, taking a layup way off balance, over the head and and with the weak hand and it'll go in.

Not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly, but in previous 2ks, I knew that if I got a big body between the ball and the basket, the layup would only go in because the player could access animations that allowed them to do so (and this was based on the ratings the players had and things we know about the players) now, with the new badges and heavily weighted badge system, it feels random because players are getting results without the animation validating the result.

Inconsistencies in the animations and the likelihood of the results of them are what make the contests feel weird, not necessarily the logic behind the inputs.

[infemous]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

My two players are playmaking PG and a Rebounding C. This year my first focus was the PG Playmaking/Finishing (Slasher).

He's up to 93 overall and I have some more badges to get in Giant Slayer/Acrobat/etc.. BUT what I wanted to say is that I played a ton of Career games and also got into Rec/ProAm settings. What you can do with this build is absolutely cheese the D, I noticed it in career and its worse vs players. I just do some dribbles, cut to the lane, start an animation right outside the paint vs 1+ defenders and the result is 1) made it via dunk or layup 2) blocked 3) foul if I get the right animation. The point is: Going for a block and missing is almost 100% a foul. There are much higher contests just using RS however vs a player, they just drive baseline.. The cheese part is it is considered "open lane" so if we try to stop him, we get a Flagrant. Guy fouled out 3 players in 2 games just getting Flagrants on them (one guy got 3 in a game, even the AI got one).

I don't want to talk about the cheese of it but I agree that with badges, smaller players have a much easier time of working close to the basket and gaining a positive outcome. At lower levels, contact plays a huge factor. But the mix of giant slayer/slithery finisher/acrobat/consistent finisher all totally negate everything a big can do EXCEPT literally just put a hand on the ball and block it.. Even that is made more difficult by giant slayer. (not sure if intimidator on HOF will basically cancel that or not)

This is why I went for this build initially when theorycrafting. There was too much a guard can do to counteract the larger players advantage. There are so many builds that make players better at what they do and can control, but this type of stuff just negates so much of the numbers/calculations of what ANOTHER player can do defensively. Pure Rim protectors are the only thing I feel has a chance.

So that being said now I'm working on my C and seeing it from the other side. If you are slightly off on your body position, you don't get any contest. So the only true defense is actually putting a hand on the ball.. But unfortunately I think that is why although it can punish you, it does not as much as it should. It would be impossible to guard if you were worthless after missing a block.

Doesn't help that you can get a clean block and the offence will recover the ball 8 times out of 10 lol

I've upgraded my rim protector to gold just to get more snatch block animations to stop that BS coz its ridiculous lol.

[Siruss]

Re: 2K20: A Deeper Dive on Contests

Doesn't help that you can get a clean block and the offence will recover the ball 8 times out of 10 lol

I've upgraded my rim protector to gold just to get more snatch block animations to stop that BS coz its ridiculous lol.

Yup sometimes the worst play is to play great D.
Yesterday had 2 things happen with that.. One block that swatted off the backboard and in.. One inbounds pass to half court, guard stuck his hand out to deflect it, deflects straight into the basket.