User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

[RetroDee4Three]

I wanted to start this conversation with an article from coach 2K (That I agree with), from NBA 2K14. I believe he has been part of the 2K league since it started as well.

https://www.coach2k.com/2014/07/user-timing-or-real-player-percentage.html

User Timing

The default option is user timing. Each player in the league has his own shooting release. Paul George will have a different release than CJ Watson who will have a different release than David West. Because of this, you'll have to know each player's release (and how much space they need) in order to be effective with them. Some releases are easier to learn than others.

Each release can either be very early, early, excellent, late or very late. You goal is to get an excellent release on every shot you take. But even if you do get an excellent release, it doesn't mean that it's guaranteed to go in. It also doesn't mean that a shot release that wasn't excellent won't go in either. Those can go in even if not perfectly timed.

How likely that is will depend on the difficulty level and sliders you are using and whether it was a good shot, who was guarding you, whether your player has the ability to hit shots from there, the game situation and the defensive scheme employed at the time.


Real Player %

The other option is real player percentage. What this does is remove shooting releases from the equation. Because of that you can shoot the same with each player. You just shoot, release and not worry about timing. Each player's unique release point is no longer a factor, it's up to the percentages.

The other things are still important and still effect the shot. The difficulty, sliders used, the defense, shot selection and who is guarding you all come into play.


Which Shooting Type Should I Use?

The first problem I see with these two choices is how they are named. Because they named one shooting type by putting the word "real" in it, it gives the impression that it will provide more realistic shooting percentages and therefore must be better and even more challenging. Guys that stake their claim to sim basketball often feel it's more sim to use real player percentage because of that.


The biggest factor is taking good shots. No matter what option you choose, good shots go in. What a good shot is - is debatable. Players often equate open shots as good shots and they aren't always good shots even though they can be.

But of the two options, user timing requires more skill and knowledge of your team. With user timing you have to not only take a good shot for that player, you also have to shoot right with him. So to me the difference between the two options is that one requires knowing shot releases and one does not.

Of the two options, I feel user timing is harder not easier and that's why I recommend it. Also, if you play users online, the only option is user timing. It makes sense to make your skills portable from mode to mode.

Unrealistic aspects of "real player %

1. You can release the ball WHENEVER you want. On the way down, on the way up, quick, late, etc... all of it has the same chance of going in, you don't need to properly shoot the ball with correct form. This makes it so you could go for a layup and just wait a bit longer to release a shot (Unrealistic, bad release) in order to not be blocked, and still have the same chance of it going in as if you released it perfectly.

2. You don't need to know your shooting forms - Shooting forms become aesthetic only, they are just for looks, as it doesn't matter how the ball is released or when.

Both 1 and 2 take two skills out of the equation.

1. Releasing the ball at a realistic point to have the shot have a better chance of going in: Think about you shooting at the gym, if you release it on the way down, what happens? If you shoot it too early, what happens? If you do those things, what happens? You have a much lower chance of making the shot, your percentages in real life drop dramatically. Not on Real Player % they don't...

2. It takes knowledge of the players and the league (shooting form wise) out of the equation, as you literally don't have to know anybodies shooting forms. It also takes that skill part out of the picture, as you can just shoot however you want whenever you want with anybody and it will just go by the real players %, and not how you released the shot.

I've been playing 2K since the original, and basketball video games since the early 90s, and I have been complimented a lot on my gameplay videos (I have a youtube channel). Every single one of my gameplay videos is with user timing, and the percentages come out realistic as long as you are playing on the right level or using the right sliders (Just like real player %)

I have literally seen people mention that user timing is "OP" because they claim that you can smoke three's with Whiteside, or D. Jordan, etc if you learn the shot. This is completely false, it is basically impossible to get a green with those guys, go into 2KU on the harder difficulties as the base and shoot threes with them, or go straight into a game.

All the things that real player % factors in: Like the defense mattering, how close the defender is to you on a shot, where you are shooting it on the floor, your hot spots, your tendencies and attributes, who is guarding you, badges, all of that stuff applies to user timing, while user timing adds "Knowing your releases", and "shot timing"

I just wanted to get peoples takes on this, because there is almost a "snob" like approach to real player %, which I find incredibly frustrating. I literally play every single game with the shot meter off, and user timing, people who use user timing are no less skilled or "less sim" than those who use real player %.

This isn't me bashing the real player % crowd either, play how YOU WANT. Whatever brings you the most joy. I just want to try and address the stigma around user timing that exists from part of the community, I would be shocked if you guys have not noticed it. I also looked at past threads on here related to real player % and user timing, and it seems that a lot of people agree with my takes (And the quotes I shared) about user timing.

Some gameplay between my brother and I. These are highlights, so obviously you will see all makes here. HOF base shooting sliders, with adjustments to some of the player movement. I'm the Lakers here.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c13qcuyu1qg" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Sorry for the long post!

[BezO]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

I like real player % for one main reason: I don't have to memorize the entire league's shooting form. Knowing a team or 2 is cool. If I only played my Knick season games, I'd probably consider user timing. But no way I'm taking the time to study the entire league. I like playing with a lot of teams.

I don't have this year's game, but from what I remember, timing seem to play a part in real player %. I almost never hit shots when my timing was more than a little off.

My ideal would be a combo of the 2, relying much more on shot quality than user timing. Maybe add a slider for how much each is weighed.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

I like real player % for one main reason: I don't have to memorize the entire league's shooting form. Knowing a team or 2 is cool. If I only played my Knick season games, I'd probably consider user timing. But no way I'm taking the time to study the entire league. I like playing with a lot of teams.

I don't have this year's game, but from what I remember, timing seem to play a part in real player %. I almost never hit shots when my timing was more than a little off.

My ideal would be a combo of the 2, relying much more on shot quality than user timing. Maybe add a slider for how much each is weighed.

That's fair, and again it's how YOU enjoy the game. Whatever people want to use to maximize the experience, I am for it.

It's the stigma around user timing that I am trying to get at. I will say, that "user timing" changes with every release of the game, as the game changes motion systems/mechanics and even shooting forms of much of the league (And retro teams), so that obviously takes some adjusting to with user timing. But again, it's another skill that needs to be learned (with knowledge gained).

I don't fault ANYBODY for using real player %. I've released slider sets where people have stated they work great with both user timing and real player %. I am also not necessarily calling people who use real player % "more casual" or "less sim". It's a gaming preference. But I HAVE been involved in many conversations that state that user timing is "unrealistic" or "Less sim" or it takes "less skill", that is what I am trying to get at.

Also, from what I gather real player % doesnt factor in user timing release wise at all, that's the point of it. The point is to eliminate the timing aspect.

[Luke Skywalker]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

Realism is an illusion.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

Realism is an illusion.

I think "realism" and "sim" are used loosely.

I define realism in a basketball video game as using the players to strengths. As in, if you have a go to guy who is normally the go to guy in real life, you go to him. Or, if you have a 3 and D guy (Say, Shane Battier), you use him that way in the game. Also, player movement/animations as a whole.

Now, this shouldn't have to be forced, it should be kind of the way you HAVE to use them if the players are made appropriately and the game plays in a somewhat realistic way. If you are able to score 70 points with Ramon Sessions, that's a problem. Nobody should have to fully "fake sim", the game should by default have the basic basketball principles on offense, defense, and player wise for you to have to use them and the team itself to real life strengths.

Marketed as a simulation basketball game, thats where sometimes the game falls short of expectations. Between incredibly poor transition defense, help defense, blow by defense, to the skating and being sucked into other players, it can look far from sim or smart at times. Yes, it's a video game, and I get that. However, certain issues not only prevent it from being or feeling "sim", but they also impact the feel and fun at times.

User timing vs real player percentage wise, both can achieve "sim stats", provided the user plays well. Every user is different, all skill levels are different, which is why no slider set is perfect for everybody, and stats can be wildly inconsistent across the board depending on the user (Even using the same slider set with the same teams).

Also, people have different playing preferences. A lot of people dont want to play "sim" or "real", they want a loose approach, and that's perfectly fine as well. Some like "loose sim", where they play at a faster pace but they still use the players mostly to real life strengths.

We should all be able to play the way we want without scrutiny.

[mlp111]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

I prefer user timing. I feel more involved.It makes me have to put the time to learn my team and teams I play with. I usually go to practice to get a broad scope of the releases of the player team i want to try and learn from experience in-game. I also usually turn shoot meter on to give me suggestion in-game until I get comfortable. Just my preference. I don't think i could play with real player percentages, just seems to take the learning factor out of the game. That's just my view and preference.

[LSU389]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

I used to use Real % on prior 2Ks, this year I've leaned more toward Timing on Shooting/Layups, Real % on FTs. Real % shooting felt too high this year even on the higher difficulties.

I'll always keep Real % on for FTs though. Too easy to learn a green release on guys that have been historically poor FT shooters.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

I used to use Real % on prior 2Ks, this year I've leaned more toward Timing on Shooting/Layups, Real % on FTs. Real % shooting felt too high this year even on the higher difficulties.

I'll always keep Real % on for FTs though. Too easy to learn a green release on guys that have been historically poor FT shooters.

On free throws, I feel like user timing has been historically hit or miss. While yes, it can and is more of a challenge to hit free throws with a poor free throw shooter, I do shoot a higher than I should FT% at times with guys like Shaq, Wilt, etc.

However, I dont like taking that control out of the game either. In the last minute of the game, if I am at the line in a close game, I dont want the game randomly deciding if I clank a free throw, I want control of that result/outcome, and own it whether I make or miss. Overall my team free throw percentage has been mostly accurate year in and year out using user timing. I play on HOF as the base

Remember in the old Live games, they had the "cross" free throw shooting? Where you had to line up the ball with the center of the cross (when it was going both up and down) in order to hit the free throw? While not aesthetically pleasing, it certainly made free throws tough with the guys who were not that great at them. The ball would move so fast, that it would be incredibly tough to time and get it in the center.

[jk31]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

what are you talking? realfg% of course takes the defense into Account. the only Thing that is removed is the Timing aspect of it.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

what are you talking? realfg% of course takes the defense into Account. the only Thing that is removed is the Timing aspect of it.

I literally didnt say that real player % didnt take defense into account, this is exactly what I said on the first post.


"All the things that real player % factors in: Like the defense mattering, how close the defender is to you on a shot,where you are shooting it on the floor, your hot spots, your tendencies and attributes, who is guarding you, badges, all of that stuff applies to user timing, while user timing adds "Knowing your releases", and "shot timing"

So I am not sure you, or the person who liked your comment, read the entirety of the first post. Of course both take defense into account.

If you are referring to this


"1. Releasing the ball at a realistic point to have the shot have a better chance of going in: Think about you shooting at the gym, if you release it on the way down, what happens? If you shoot it too early, what happens? If you do those things WHILE DEFENSE IS IN YOUR AREA, what happens? You have a much lower chance of making the shot, your percentages in real life drop dramatically. Not on Real Player % they don't..."

I am saying as a whole, that you not only have to factor in the defense, but you have to factor in the timing of the shot as well. I'll edit that statement in the first post, as that is probably what confused things.

[ILLSmak]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

Completely unrelated to your post, but let me comment on the gameplay. haha.


I dislike how many posters there are!



Some of the plays that I really thought were good were that behind the back drive from Kobe at about 2 min, that second oop to Shaq ( at about 7 min) which was kind of reminiscent of 2000 v portland (cept obv a different finish.)



And that score w/ KG at 7:40. Gottem. haha.



It feels like all of the jumpers are too quick to me. Like almost every release you guys have seems like it's too early and looks unnatural (even though that's probably how they are supposed to look.) That's one thing that bothered me. Otherwise, pretty fun mix.



-Smak

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

Completely unrelated to your post, but let me comment on the gameplay. haha.


I dislike how many posters there are!



Some of the plays that I really thought were good were that behind the back drive from Kobe at about 2 min, that second oop to Shaq ( at about 7 min) which was kind of reminiscent of 2000 v portland (cept obv a different finish.)



And that score w/ KG at 7:40. Gottem. haha.



It feels like all of the jumpers are too quick to me. Like almost every release you guys have seems like it's too early and looks unnatural (even though that's probably how they are supposed to look.) That's one thing that bothered me. Otherwise, pretty fun mix.



-Smak

That gameplay is with my movement sliders that speed up the gameplay a bit, that's why things probably look a little bit rushed or quicker. However, I did what I could to loosen up the gameplay and fix some of the movement issues that I feel the game has (that can impact outcomes/results as well).

I made a post on this on the NLSC, go back and play NBA 2K16 and 2K17 and feel how natural the shooting feels overall. My brother and I talk about it all the time, shots in general in this game dont feel very natural (with the exception of a few players), shots do indeed feel rushed at times. We are playing on HOF shooting in that video, and I want to say we both shot around 47% for the game, but believe it or not we were actually releasing those shots well, they just look rushed in general in the game.

Dunks wise, we have dunk on contact frequency a little higher slider wise, in order to give the game a more explosive, NBA Action type feel. If you noticed in the gameplay, the movement overall looks less sluggish and dull, and more alive and with more action. The blow bys still happen, and are far to easy with the best players (or players with decent speed/strength on average defenders), but we do our best to make up for it via help defense (A LOT of icon switching).

But thanks for the compliments on the highlights, it was a fun game.

[triplechin]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

As a ProAM/Park player, I just hate automatic greens. I think it completely unbalances the game and it is not skillful enough to warrant an auto make. If greens maximized your rating instead of automatically going in, then I think shooting could easily be balanced and the game would play a lot better. If people want to automatically make buckets then either get rid of ratings or make it more challenging.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

As a ProAM/Park player, I just hate automatic greens. I think it completely unbalances the game and it is not skillful enough to warrant an auto make. If greens maximized your rating instead of automatically going in, then I think shooting could easily be balanced and the game would play a lot better. If people want to automatically make buckets then either get rid of ratings or make it more challenging.

I can understand the frustration with that, absolutely.

[JoFri]

Re: User Timing vs Real Player % - 2K20 and prior

I used 2 play on user timing. I was frustrated at some point where I felt the 2K engine just wanted me to miss some of the shots i.e. free throw as I was pretty I had a good release.
After I switched to real player %, there was no turning back. Games are solely relying on attributes, sliders, percentages. And I focused on other aspect of the game, like rebounding, strategy, matchups. I was down 1-3 vs the sixers, and I worked on the gameplan, adjusted the line-ups etc.
I'm just saying having real player % allows me to njoy the game even more without worrying about my releases. I spent a big deal of time modifying the player shooting form by doing lots of film study on player shooting form irl. Having real player% allows me to njoy the realism of every player releases. Who wants to play Shawn Marion if he shoots like Kobe in the video game, u know what i mean?

At the end of the day, I'm just a nba fan playing basketball video game. I'll prefer user timing if i'm playing arcade and I just need to look at the shot meter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk