Onball Defense is non existent

[jeebs9]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

I think it's just much more tiered than it was in the past. A Giannis can, yes, bully his way to the rim against most non-elite defenders (using human vs. human) but can at least be challenged to an extent with elite ones.

Really bad defenders give up blow-bys even after a contact animation a good amount because they're just bad defenders. The game is trying to be less bumper car-y (finally) and I think that throws off conceptions a bit because we've grown so used to riding animations and the like. But riding animations are really open to certain types of defenders (at least for the most part) and now it's more about guessing spots and trying to cut off certain pieces of the floor rather than bump someone the whole way.

However, steal spam is still a mess if you want to talk about a tragic issue with on-ball defense.

Spot on with this post!!

Weak defenders get exposed. And I guess that's because certain players just have to have this pull. Because we obviously don't want good players being locked up by bad defenders.

Spam steals are going crazy. I just ran into a few games. Where people didn't even care that they were giving up the lane.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Hi all,

I wanted to join this discussion, as it's something i have talked about a lot in the past (And for this game on the NLSC). A couple things to get out of the way first:

1. It's an exaggeration to state that the blow-by issue is as bad as 2K18. On 2K18, with all defensive sliders up to 100, you could literally just run by anybody at any time. Kawhi is on you? Cool, just dribble by him and go to the hoop uncontested, it's really no different in that game than having Kyle Korver on you, you can run by bother of them. On 2K20, with defensive badges impacting the gameplay so much this year (which is not a good thing at time, and obviously they are not just having a major impact on defense either, on offense as well) guys like Kawhi, Beverley etc will give more resistance. The problem is, AVERAGE defenders easily get blown by, at will, all the time, and the help defense seldom reacts, and when they do... often times it's so late that it's a free layup

2. Blow bys are an issue, and IMO the perfect balance on defense was on 2K16. That aside, the defense intelligence in this game is incredibly poor the majority of the time. All you have to do to get a free layup is push the pace, or outlet and go on a fastbreak, and literally go wide on your path to the hoop, and you won't be touched. This can be done the majority of the time, regardless of sliders or level played on. Often times on the break (Far too often) defenders literally just move out of the way, they slide right out of your way so you can get an uncontested layup. Did they not slide out of your way? While, if they are not an elite defender with the appropriate badges etc, you can literally just run by them/through them, with little resistance.

3. An issue that presents itself often is being sucked in backwards and sideways into defenders unrealistically, so while you are completely frustrated with how easy it was for you to just run by the CPU with no strategy, now you are frustrated with being sucked backwards into a defender and forced into a passive layup animation when you were trying to finish strong.

I think a lot of the issues are amplified by the skating/lack of foot planting that exists in the game as well, and the user feels like he/she has less sense of control.

Here is an example of constant blow bys. I am Lowry, my defender is Rozier. Yes, Lowry IS stronger than Rozier, and yes Lowry would probably be able to bully Rozier at times. But just running by him on every possession? Or getting right under the rim every time I drive? That's not realistic at all. Not only that, the help (Which seldom comes) is either non-existent or comes late, I could shoot 70-80% doing this on straight line drives with Lowry in a game.

This is on default HOF, but I have jacked defensive sliders up, and I can do the same. A happy medium needs to be reached where this can't be done on almost every possession, where I can score at a high clip.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LrJSQFIvmjk" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Here is an example of the CPU just moving out of the way. I am the Warriors, the CPU = Raptors. Van Vleet sliding out of the way, this literally happens a ton. This was with defensive sliders jacked up to 100, and while I never play on 2K cam, I did so for this example. Do you know how frustrating this is when it happens? It destroys the immersion. It's different when "instances" of this happen, like when it's rare, but when this happens at a consistent volume, it's super frustrating. Keep in mind, this would be frustrating if it happens in a game marketed as arcade, or simulation, because sport is a competition, and in BASKETBALL when some just moves out of your way so you can score, thats an issue.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A1B07PSjUlU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Here is a video I made early on in the release, when I had put in quite a bit of time in the game. In this video I am highlighting a lot of my frustrations with the player movement, and don't touch much on defense. But, the second pack of clips is me just running by the CPU over and over again with Kemba Walker and scoring, I go 7 for 8 on straight line drives.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/J8OqTvVEt9U" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Again, we are talking VOLUME, which is amplifed by the volume of skating/floating players, and the being "sucked in" to other players around you. No doubt prior 2K's on this gen had issues, between the P&R defense on 2K17, the trailer three on 2K16, the blow bys on 2K18, the "heavy feel" of players on 2K19 (Westbrook feels like a slug), etc. And all the games have a fair share of legacy issues. So a few things I want to get out of the way:

1. Saying "All games have issues", and "Well this game had it worse", etc while not acknowledging that these are still pressing issues that should be addressed helps nothing.

2. Stating "well don't play that way" or "Pull back and run the offense" or "They don't play that way in real life" does not make the issues go away, furthermore, if teams COULD score at a 70-80% clip on straight line drives, all teams would be doing it in the NBA. Those excuses don't fly. The game is marketed as a simulation of basketball, do you have any idea how many times I have heard "Sim nation"?

If you are playing a game, and have to CONSTANTLY avoid exploits, bugs, and issues (not going wide in transition, not just running passed your defenders, etc) you are not playing real competitive basketball, and you are also more than likely frustrated at the fact that you have to keep dodging these issues.

If I have to pull back on a fastbreak just because the CPU moves out of the way and I dont want to have an easy score, that is an immersion killer. And an ISSUE that IMO should be addressed.

This goes back to my point that you shouldnt have to FAKE sim, or FAKE competition. If the whole game or majority of the game you are just trying to avoid the games issues, and not able to play loose and the way you want, that's a major red flag.

You shouldnt have to fake sim or fake competition, the game that is marketed as a sim ot a certain way should produce that result or atleast close to that result on the court. The game itself shouldn't have that many exploits (which are issues themselves), control and intelligence issues, etc etc

The player movement stuff, and the glaring defensive issues impact the whole match/game or the majority of the match/game for many users.

"Don't ISO and drive for an easy score if it's that easy, that's an exploit"

"Dont run by multiple defenders in transition constantly if it's that easy, it's an exploit"

"Dont go wide when pushing the pace to get easy baskets if it's that easy, it's an exploit"

Do you see how that makes no sense? Its COMPETITION, its sport. You shouldnt have to constantly avoid bugs and exploits during the game. You shouldnt have to FAKE sim, or not try and pursue the best scoring opportunity.


Yes, a long post. But I think it's feedback that is necessary, and needed. And, I am glad this thread was created. I wish it was a thread about defense in general, but it's a good start (I thought about creating my own thread about this). I own every 2K going back to the original, all the PC versions going back to 2K9 (First one they released), and all the Lives on this gen and last. This isn't a "If you don't like the game, just go play Live". That is one of the worst things you could say to someone who critiques a game, feedback done right is VITAL. And just because I have many gripes about 2K20's gameplay, doesn't mean that A) The feedback is not important, B) That I don't care about the series moving forward or C) That I don't care about others experiences with the game.

Furthermore, a lot of comments in here are based on player lock, online play (just using one player), and not factoring in all of the other modes and how these issues impact them. As in, MyTeam, Offline play now, 5 on 5 online, MyLeague, etc. Its important to talk about the other modes, as all gameplay is connected.

I am really looking forward to what 2K and EA does on the next generation of consoles.

[howardphillips214]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Perimeter defense is fine. Now paint defense is another story...

[Optimus James]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Space.

Go on the side you dont want him to drive to.

Make sure guide them towards help.

call for double when you sense they're about to blow by you.


rinse repeat, its the best you can do.

[WarMMA]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

I usually agree with EC. But, this year i think the onball defense is very realistic and the best its been in 2k.

This. On ball defense is now at a more happy medium and not too much to one side or the other. A big can't stay in front of a guard on the perimeter, a bad defender has to make sure and cut drive lanes properly and be in proper position, ect. And when your using elite defenders, you have a little more leeway...you still have to make sure your in proper position, but there's definitely some leeway and I think this is good cuz it seperates the elite defenders from horrible ones. For example, me and a friend were playing the other day and I had the 12-13 Grizzles and he had Lob City Clippers. I started Courtney Lee at SG and he started a linup with Paul at SG. He was absolutely killing Lee with Chris Paul on drives to the hoop and I had to make sure I jammed lanes up before he blew by. However, when I subbed Lee out and brought in Tony Allen, it was much easier cuz Allen is an elite defender. Allen was quick and could wall him off much easier. And even when he manage to get blow by's, we entered the riding animation and Allen could still keep up and contest him. So I like where it's at right now, cuz it differentiates the defenders. With bad defenders, you have to respect the drive, run them into help D, turbo over to jam lanes, ect. With good defenders, you can play a lot more suffocating D and you won't need much help at all.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Come on, I hear this constantly, you can bump guys IRL, have you guys played basketball, if you beat the offensive player to the spot he is not gonna blow by you.

I've played at a decent level, and continue to play. I've never been a part of any game or seen where guy's are constantly walling each other off on the perimeter possesion by possesion. There are tons and tons of full halfs and quarters of the NBA on YouTube, literally pick any any of them, not a clip, but continous action and it's something that's easily proven.

The game is centered around penetration, and it's difficult to stay in front of a decent player consistently. Yes, you can anticipate and block him off completely, but in most cases you're "carrying" him into help defense or riding his hip creating a barrier between him and the basket so that he takes a difficult/ contested shot, or has to make a contested pass.

That's why help defense is key, and needs to be done better in 2K. That, and we need more outcomes to the hip ride animation, the defense needs to "win" more of them and be rewarded for positioning. I'd still say 2K20 is balanced a lot better than 18/19 in this regard.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

You have to be holding L2 and R2 the whole time when you're playing D vs people that spam dribble moves. In 19 you only needed L2 and the left and right stick to play D, in 20 you move laterally so slowly if you're not holding on turbo. Also, don't ride up on guys because most guys have slow releases and aren't that great at shooting anyway, so a 25% and over contest is usually enough to force a miss from just closing out

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

The issues currently are the terrible transition and help D by the AI

On-ball D is pretty realistic this year imo.

For whatever reason help and transition defense has completely regressed by the AI. It was already bad last year and somehow got worse. You cant even get them to listen to coach adjustments half the time.

[olajuwon34]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

The debate for real basketball verse 2k's basketball could go on forever, 2k basketball is 2k basketball, its not basketball, it would take them way more resources and effort to actual replicate basketball realistically, and WAY more focus, which from what iv seen in these games, is not their priority.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

The debate for real basketball verse 2k's basketball could go on forever, 2k basketball is 2k basketball, its not basketball, it would take them way more resources and effort to actual replicate basketball realistically, and WAY more focus, which from what iv seen in these games, is not their priority.

You don't even have the game right?

I think most of us know NBA 2K isn't actual basketball, it's a video game...this is not news.

and MOST know by now here isn't some thumbdrive with "real basketball" on it they are just refusing to plug into the games code...

We all have different views on how the game can be replicated realistically....and that's what we are discussing here.

[WarMMA]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Another thing I think a bit of ppl haven't gotten used to yet also, is the footplanting and how it works on defense. Because it's more realistic now, you have to make sure you don't move too much and overcommit or move to little and get blown by. At first when I started playing, I was doing this like crazy and taking myself completely out of plays. Now that i've gotten used to it, i'll move the stick ever so slightly to stay squared with my man and move more or burst out with turbo when nessesary. Because of the footplanting being more realistic like this, there's actually a larger skill gap with defending now, than in previous 2k's.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Another thing I think a bit of ppl haven't gotten used to yet also, is the footplanting and how it works on defense. Because it's more realistic now, you have to make sure you don't move too much and overcommit or move to little and get blown by. At first when I started playing, I was doing this like crazy and taking myself completely out of plays. Now that i've gotten used to it, i'll move the stick ever so slightly to stay squared with my man and move more or burst out with turbo when nessesary. Because of the footplanting being more realistic like this, there's actually a larger skill gap with defending now, than in previous 2k's.

The foot planting is not more realistic, I am sorry. You are not only sliding like you are on ice, but you are also often floating above the floor.

You can say you like the defense better, but saying its realistic is not accurate. Saying the on ball defense is realistic overall is also not accurate, for the many reasons and examples I mentioned in the prior post.

Players sliding constantly impacts outcomes and results as well, as does the being sucked into other players. And, it's not just you the user that is sliding, it's happening all over the floor. The game is in sore need of better foot planting with the move to next gen, and I have my fingers crossed.

And, as I stated, it's happening all over the floor. You are talking about YOUR control in a player lock scenario, you have to look at the big picture, and how its impacting ongoings around you. For me, because of the constant sliding/skating, I dont feel like I have as much control over players either, on offense or defense. This hurts the experience for me.

Today i posted 10 things I liked, and 10 things I dont like about 2K20. I have given positives and negatives, but the foot planting and some of the other player movement issues are certainly not positives IMO.

Again, saying you like the defense better is one thing. But to say that skating (even floating) above the floor while you move or the foot planting in general is realistic, is not accurate at all. It impacts control as well, on O and D.

[WarMMA]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Well what I should have said is it's more realistic than previous yrs. Yes there is definitely still sliding going on, but they are trying to make guys take actual steps now. In previous games there was way more sliding than this and they weren't really trying to make players take steps. I'm not saying it's 100% realistic no, but it's definitely more realistic than previous years. My opinion of course. But yes i'm also keeping my fingers crossed for even better footplanting across the board come nxt gen.

[RetroDee4Three]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

Well what I should have said is it's more realistic than previous yrs. Yes there is definitely still sliding going on, but they are trying to make guys take actual steps now. In previous games there was way more sliding than this and they weren't really trying to make players take steps. I'm not saying it's 100% realistic no, but it's definitely more realistic than previous years. My opinion of course. But yes i'm also keeping my fingers crossed for even better footplanting across the board come nxt gen.

2K16 had exceptional footplanting, and realistic defense (Feel and execution overall), the trailer three was the only real weakness defensively.

2K15 and 2K14 both had better foot planting and more sound defense than 2K20.

2K17 had brick wall defense that was excessive, but the foot planting was far better.

2K18 was the game where they did a full switch of the motion system, which introduced a much higher volume of skating, and just overall more footplanting issues.

2K20 feels an awful lot like both 2K18 and 2K19 skating wise, because the motion system is mostly a continuation of those two games. One thing that's certainly better on 2K20 over 2K18 is that defenders like Kawhi are indeed noticablely better at defense than an average or below better defender. However the problem is that you can just run by average defenders at will, they need to find a better balance overall. Right now, you are either a LOCK like Kawhi, or you are a major liability. That's not the way it works in real life, and that wouldnt be the way you wanted it to work even if you were playing more casually.

I'm honestly existed to see what 2K21 will be like, as look how amazing 2K14 overall looked and played (First game on this gen).

[alabamarob]

Re: Onball Defense is non existent

The problem is the cpu ballhandling and left stick change of direction by the offense. They let guys with 65 and 75 ballhandling change directions on a dime and change direction. The lack of live ball, also. If every wing player wasnt Kyrie Irving, the n ball defense would be a consensus yes.

More turnovers would make things more realistic, not better on ball defense.