Dirk or Hakeem?

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Lukas stride doesnt matter, were talkin about dirks stride and luka aint that.

What does this even mean

Giannis isnt 2nd best pf ever yet either. U have recency and overreliance on stats.

I listed Giannis' accolades and literally NONE of his stats.

When someone carrys like dirk to finals and fmvp vs a bloomin dynasty. Context is important cuz stats are much different.

Explain the context that makes Dirk's 2011 season different from Giannis' 2021 season.

You have nostalgia goggles and an overreliance on vague, abstract tropes.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Obv Giannis and KAT and Hakeem ALL had better STATS bro. But like I said... Not ONE person you've listed did more damage from the elbows and the nail. Dirks jumper was a work of art and science coached up by Holger.

Nobody cares.

You've still yet to counter my point about how Dirk was the first player to CONSISTENTLY pull his matchup out of the paint revolutionizing how the game is played today.

Dirk didn't have a bigger strategic influence on the game than LeBron, Curry, or Draymond. (Much less Magic, Bird, Jordan, or Shaq in their respective eras).

Surely you should have no issue finding a recent national broadcast where they discuss Dirk's supreme influence on the modern game?

(For the rest of you playing at home: Take a guess which players ACTUALLY, ROUTINELY, come up in that discussion).

[howardphillips214]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Josh Howard, Luke Doncic, and Jason Kidd were All Stars in seasons played with Dirk.

Though not All Stars while playing with Dirk, this is the list:
Tyson Chandler
Shawn Marion
Nick Van Exel
Jerry Stackhouse
Vince Carter
Juwan Howard
Deron Williams
Antawn Jamison
Antoine Walker
Caron Butler
Tim Hardaway Sr.
Christian Laettner
Eddie Jones
Rajon Rondo
Peja Stojakovic
Chris Kaman
Danny Manning
Amare Stoudemire
David Lee
Jameer Nelson
Deandre Jordan
Dennis Rodman
Kevin Willis

So can you say Dirk carried a bunch of role players to a title like Hakeem did in 94?

Lol your absolutely high. Half that list never played with Dirk. Luka was a rookie when he played with Dirk and Dirk retired after the season. Not a Nash and Finley both made the all-star game but Dirk wasn't in his prime yet. Then Josh Howard made it in 07 and J. Kidd was an alternate in 2010 the year before we made our title run.

Compare that with the list of all time greats. Sure, if Nash would have stayed that may have helped but for the most part Dirk played his entire career with replacement players and still won 50 plus games every year for over a decade. Say what you will about titles but only Tim Duncan has a comparable record during that time and he had Many and Parker, both are HOFers.

JET was the only consistent partner he had and his best role was as a bench scorer. Marion was over his prime, Carter was barely a role player, and Kidd was a spot up shooter by the time we made our title run. Tyson Chandler only played 2 singular seasons in Dallas and they were not consecutive.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Not a Nash and Finley both made the all-star game but Dirk wasn't in his prime yet.

Dirk is apparently the only player top 10 in scoring whose prime seemingly only lasted 6 weeks.

Nash *immediately* won back-to-back MVPs after leaving Dirk.

Sure, if Nash would have stayed that may have helped but for the most part Dirk played his entire career with replacement players and still won 50 plus games every year for over a decade.

Lest we forget Dirk also played with a literal video game lineup in 2004: Nash, Finley, Antoine Walker, and Antawn Jamison.

Yet OP would have you believe he played with Vernon Maxwell his whole career.

Say what you will about titles but only Tim Duncan has a comparable record during that time and he had Many and Parker, both are HOFers.

Dirk Nowitzki: Lost in the 1st round 8x in his career.
Tim Duncan: Lost in the 1st round 3x in his career.

"Comparable record". Revisionist history at it's finest.
Maybe if Dirk MADE HIS TEAMMATES BETTER, like Tim Duncan did, he'd have played with more Hall of Famers, won more than 1 championship, etc.

As has been mentioned prior, it's hard to play with stars when you need specialists to cover your glaring weaknesses. Hakeem/Duncan/Shaq got to play with Robert Horry. Dirk playing with the likes of DeSagana Diop was 100% a product of Dirk.

The carousel of DAL players was explicitly because they were unable to find the right fit around such a limited star player, and had to keep rolling the dice. They hit double sixes ONCE and it made you forget all the times you miserably crapped out.

You hitch your entire fandom to one season like it was the norm when it was the outlier, and disregard all the other failures since they inconvenience your hypothetical, imaginary world.

[Gramps91]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

I loved Ginobli but I don't think most see him as a HOFer

[howardphillips214]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Lmfao... Cuz dirk was the GM running the team his entire career.

Gtfoh bro.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Lmfao... Cuz dirk was the GM running the team his entire career.
Gtfoh bro.

Sorry bucko, if Dirk were really as good as you think he was, he'd have been able to win with anyone. The true all-time greats didn't need 7 best-case scenarios to break right in order to win.

LeBron James took Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, and Sasha Pavlovic to an NBA Finals.

Dirk wasn't out there turning guys like Boobie Gibson & Matthew Dellavedova into multi-millionaires. He turned Antoine Wright into a Chinaman, sent Rodrigue Beaubois back to France, Lamar Odom to rehab, and Delonte West to the street.

The number of players who COULDN'T play with Dirk FAR outnumber the players who could.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

What does this even mean



I listed Giannis' accolades and literally NONE of his stats.




Explain the context that makes Dirk's 2011 season different from Giannis' 2021 season.

You have nostalgia goggles and an overreliance on vague, abstract tropes.

Covid, diff teams. Giannis is good tho and we ain’t talking about him atm. Giannis v dirk all time is interesting. Gonna be hard to at the end put dirk over him but we’ll see. Stats as In numerical representation.

I have two disagreements. Dirk n kat, nah. And dirk v luka as greatest mav. Both are bold as of yet unfounded claims. They could end up true. We’ve seen dirks true prime and great moments. Even if we haven’t seen Lukas we can only go w what we have.


And yea the 20 year player w mvp fmvp gets the nod over luka til luka passes him. We know dirks skill set. Im not riding. It’s just you said wild stuff.

-Smak

[Cowboyfan_19]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

I'm not understanding the dirk slander here? Guys an all time great, just not a better overall talent than Hakeem. Why is Lebron being brought up?

If we're being honest, if shade needs to be thrown, it should be at Cuban for not surrounding Dirk with enough mentally & physically tough players. Even as a fan, the Mavs have been way too much of a finesse team for my liking for the better part of 20 years. Go figure the year we had Tyson Chandler was our most complete team.

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

I'm not understanding the dirk slander here? Guys an all time great, just not a better overall talent than Hakeem. Why is Lebron being brought up?

Did you read OP?

[howardphillips214]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

The year we won Dirk carried JET, Marion, Kidd, Chandler, and a bunch of scrubs to a 6 game series over the Heat with 3 slam dunk HOFers. But Dirks limited, he can't play with others, it's his fault he couldn't get anyone to play with him.

Small market team and Cubans refusal to pay the luxury tax had nothing to do with it.

This ****ing guy...

[Real2KInsider]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

But Dirks limited, he can't play with others, it's his fault he couldn't get anyone to play with him.

Dirk played with a long list of players. The problem is he didn't make many of them better.

Lamar Odom
Literally went from 2011 Sixth Man of the Year to a 35-25-59 shooting line next to Dirk.

Darren Collison
The Mavs brought in 38-year old Derek Fisher to start over him.
DC had to sign w/ the Clippers as a backup for the minimum afterwards to rehab his value.
Averaged 16 PPG w/ SAC two years later.

Rajon Rondo
The Mavericks brought in a 28-year old 4x All-Star and the fit w/ Dirk was so notoriously poor he sat out playoff games. They started the year 20-8, and then went 30-24 the rest of the way.

There are MULTIPLE occasions where an established player didn't just get worse but ruined their career upon joining Dallas.

Who did Dirk ELEVATE? When Steve Nash joined PHX, Amare Stoudemire immediately became a superstar, Joe Johnson entered the All-Star conversation, Boris Diaw won MIP, and Leandro Barbosa won Sixth Man.

All Dirk and Dallas has to show are these PR nightmares and disappointments beyond the ONE time they got it right.

Small market team

Dallas is literally the NBA's fifth biggest market. You live in fantasy land.

[AIRJ23]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

I don’t really have a dog in this race and I agree Dirk isn’t worthy of being put in an all time greats category, nevermind even close to Hakeem. Luka, as hard as it is for me to get behind a guy who looks like he’s never worked out and moves like molasses, looks like he can be easily top Dirk’s legacy if he keeps going.

As for the Mavs vs Heat, Dirk only averaged 23 that season but then went nuts in the finals. LeBron had a better season but then famously choked to historic degree. So was it that the Mavs played that good or Bron and company choked that bad? Wade averaged about 27 that series and LJ about 17.

It’s also worth mentioning LeBron played no all NBA players or I believe HOFers for at least 8 straight finals runs. Absolutely no comparison in that era between the east and west.

I wouldn’t put Dirk in the convo of best PF’s ever, especially being a defensive liability. But I’d say he’s worthy of being mentioned *near that list of PF’s.

[SteveQ]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

So in terms of guys not born in America, Hakeem is still currently the greatest. In terms of the actual definition of an international player who came to the NBA, Giannis is probably the greatest right now with Dirk behind him but Luka AND Jokic are right there and will probably pass him. Giannis and Jokic also actually came outta nowhere to most people (except the Hawks, Bucks and a friend of mine who told me in 2013 or 2014 that Giannis will win MVP one day. Yes I laughed at him cause at that point Giannis was mostly known for getting down the whole court in like 3 dribbles). Dirk was on the radars of teams and legends, that one Barkley story is widely known.

Dirk did help revolutionize the shooting big but it wasn’t really a foreign concept when he got in the league. Saying he may be more influential than MJ is amazingly comical when there are still MJ clones/people chasing his ghost. And while there are a lot more bigs who shoot now none of them play like or have tried to play like Dirk. Well they may do the one legged fade away but the OP didn’t specify that move as influential, which would be a better argument.

I have another friend who’s a Mavs fan and I don’t really get how seeing as Dirk was somebody who could never get it done for all of his career except 2011. That year has legit saved his legacy because people talk more about it (I guess understandably?) than they do 2007 or 2006. Take away the ring and for most people, Dirk is probably right outside the top 5 PF with Giannis rising the way he has. I’d bet money right now that Luka will be looked at as a greater Mavs player if he stays in Dallas for his whole career and that’s not even a shot at Dirk, it’s a testament to how good Luka has been already.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Dirk or Hakeem?

Dirk played with a long list of players. The problem is he didn't make many of them better.

Lamar Odom
Literally went from 2011 Sixth Man of the Year to a 35-25-59 shooting line next to Dirk.

Darren Collison
The Mavs brought in 38-year old Derek Fisher to start over him.
DC had to sign w/ the Clippers as a backup for the minimum afterwards to rehab his value.
Averaged 16 PPG w/ SAC two years later.

Rajon Rondo
The Mavericks brought in a 28-year old 4x All-Star and the fit w/ Dirk was so notoriously poor he sat out playoff games. They started the year 20-8, and then went 30-24 the rest of the way.

There are MULTIPLE occasions where an established player didn't just get worse but ruined their career upon joining Dallas.

Who did Dirk ELEVATE? When Steve Nash joined PHX, Amare Stoudemire immediately became a superstar, Joe Johnson entered the All-Star conversation, Boris Diaw won MIP, and Leandro Barbosa won Sixth Man.

All Dirk and Dallas has to show are these PR nightmares and disappointments beyond the ONE time they got it right.



Dallas is literally the NBA's fifth biggest market. You live in fantasy land.

Jason Kidd? Jet? The thing is players don't make other players better, they fit into a system and either give them more space or a different opportunity. Guys like washed Rondo, Collison and washed Kardash Odom... what about washed Kidd? Washed Marion. You don't think Josh Howard got paid off Dirk? Who did KAT make better? lol.



-Smak