NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

[DC]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

I don't understand the difference between some scouting tool or some joe. Ultimately, the same data has to be accounted for no matter who or what is processing it ... right?

No it is NOT the same thing. One is opinion based, the other is mathematically based.

[elev8rmuzik]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

No it is NOT the same thing. One is opinion based, the other is mathematically based.

Maybe I'm assuming that it has to be derived from the same data.

Both systems have to be set up to achieve a specific result, or else there'd be no reason to have a system. It can't be, "Well I'm just going to rate this guy a 75 because I like his shoes". There's got to be a method to it.

[NINJAK2]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

What do you mean? Proven that DNA gets real information, or proven that the 2K Insider just kinda analyzes the players as he sees fit and then assigns them ratings? DNA is 100% legit (execution and implementation into the game is one thing, but the data is rock-solid)... As far as the 2K Insider goes, I think there's team input on the ratings as well, but it's basically his domain and all goes back to his take on things.

NINJAK2 -- yeah, I only mentioned it because other people had specifically mentioned how nice the CAF models looked. I know it's an unfair comparison to look at some random CAP vs that Melo screenshot Live put out, but I was just saying that the skin textures looked really weak and it looks exactly like 2K9 minus the improved facial hair. It's far too early to judge visuals and I know that, it was just an observation since I was surprised that others were fans of the graphics. I agree that graphics need not be 2K10's focus either... they've got plenty of more important things to work on... like making sure people can actually y'know, play Team Up without having to try 15 different times next year, for example.

Ok I got you now Stumble. I still like the facial look of the CAPS I've seen so far as they atleast look like human beings or someone you might see on the street compared to 2k9's. I'll leave the skin texture argument in your capable hands.

[DC]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Maybe I'm assuming that it has to be derived from the same data.

Both systems have to be set up to achieve a specific result, or else there'd be no reason to have a system. It can't be, "Well I'm just going to rate this guy a 75 because I like his shoes". There's got to be a method to it.

Forget it man. You aren't meant to understand

[jmood88]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

NINJAK2 -- yeah, I only mentioned it because other people had specifically mentioned how nice the CAF models looked. I know it's an unfair comparison to look at some random CAP vs that Melo screenshot Live put out, but I was just saying that the skin textures looked really weak and it looks exactly like 2K9 minus the improved facial hair. It's far too early to judge visuals and I know that, it was just an observation since I was surprised that others were fans of the graphics. I agree that graphics need not be 2K10's focus either... they've got plenty of more important things to work on... like making sure people can actually y'know, play Team Up without having to try 15 different times next year, for example.

That player did not look like 2k9 at all, it looked like a guy from College Hoops.

[elev8rmuzik]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Forget it man. You aren't meant to understand

Damn. Like that?

Maybe you just don't know how to describe what you think you understand.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

That player did not look like 2k9 at all, it looked like a guy from College Hoops.

Heh, good call... wasn't 2K9 real player quality. More like 2K9's CAPs with better facial hair or CH2K8's normal models.

elev8rmuzik: Even if the 2K Insider sat down and looked at some box score stats, detailed shot charts, 82games.com data, etc. and then said based on that data "Rose is an average-to-good off-hand scorer for a PG" and then assigns him a 75, that doesn't mean that it is corresponding to other player's ratings within the global system.

Something like DNA where literally every single play of the NBA season is cataloged, analyzed, and placed in categories that are automatically converted into ratings for those specific skills is something entirely different. The key is that the global rankings are based on the same criteria and everything is purely data-driven. It's totally out of the hands of a human, which means that it's bias-free and based entirely on logic/math/data.

To me, that's a far superior system for rating players in a videogame... but some people like the "human touch" and the ability to make changes not based solely on the data... I'm not one of those.

Anyway, hope that clarified things... don't want this to turn into yet another "2k does this and EA does that" thread... I'm excited about both games but I do really hope that 2K gets something better worked up in regards to ratings, especially since they added these other ratings that are more complex and even more subjective.

[Fiasco West]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

This is interesting.

Why is 2k limiting what you can upload? To me it seems like Career mode has something to do with online, otherwise why do they care if you abuse the system?

I thought when this was announced we'd be able to create how many we'd like, save it on the HDD, then load them up on our game. Thought it would be purely solo, but it makes me think they have another idea for this when they talk about uploading your player to their servers.

Excited to find out more about this game in general.

[HiTEqMETHOD]

While I love NBA2k and am very happy to see the CAP improved I'm not spending money on a feature that should be in the game for free. That's one of my biggest gripes with EA is they recently starting charging for stuff that used to be or should be free. TeamBuilder is basically create-a-team and even though you technically don't have to pay for it the only way to use it is by buying the game new, or if you get it used or rent it you have to purchase the content through DLC. EA does this kind of stuff with pretty much all of their sports games now and don't want to see 2k start either. Stuff like that is not right.


What has me worried though is, has anyone seen the features list yet? I know 2k is being tight lipped but I just want to make sure that this new DLC isn't taking CAP's space. I still want my create-a-player option in game for free since I payed $63 for the game already, or atleast the option to edit incoming draft prospects like usual but with this beefed up system.

[elev8rmuzik]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Heh, good call... wasn't 2K9 real player quality. More like 2K9's CAPs with better facial hair or CH2K8's normal models.

elev8rmuzik: Even if the 2K Insider sat down and looked at some box score stats, detailed shot charts, 82games.com data, etc. and then said based on that data "Rose is an average-to-good off-hand scorer for a PG" and then assigns him a 75, that doesn't mean that it is corresponding to other player's ratings within the global system.

Something like DNA where literally every single play of the NBA season is cataloged, analyzed, and placed in categories that are automatically converted into ratings for those specific skills is something entirely different. The key is that the global rankings are based on the same criteria and everything is purely data-driven. It's totally out of the hands of a human, which means that it's bias-free and based entirely on logic/math/data.

To me, that's a far superior system for rating players in a videogame... but some people like the "human touch" and the ability to make changes not based solely on the data... I'm not one of those.

Right on for the explaination Stumbleweed. Good to see everybody doesn't talk out of their *** around here.

So it's not so much the actual application of the data that people agree/disagree with (depending on which game we're speaking of), it's the method in which the actual data is collected and I guess the data itself that's the jump off point for most people.

I mean regardless of the system, the devs could apply the data in a way that would make a 0 rated guy = God Mode if they wanted to.

[Stumbleweed]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Yeah exactly, which is why I said that DNA isn't automatically a better system in practice, simply because the developers could implement the data all wrong and then you're left with a game that plays nothing like the real NBA even though all the stats and data are 100% legit..

It's still ultimately in the devs hands to make the ratings play out the way they ideally should, but I think that DNA in general is a much more solid base for a ratings system because it's so number-heavy and there's just SO MUCH data, all of which is handled by computers before it even gets into human hands... If 2K really elaborated on how and why their ratings are what they are, what data they use as source material, etc. it would help clarify things... I can't recall in my years on this forum as a 2K b-ball fiend ever seeing a dev sit here and explain all of the ratings and where the numbers actually come from. The 2K Insider's ham-handed and often incorrect explanations were the closest thing we've had on that front, and clearly the ratings heads here weren't much of a fan of him haha... just seems like he's ball-parking ratings based off recent play, which was sort of the idea... but that's simply not enough for the realistic NBA heads who want answers and data to back it up.

[HeavenlyTouch]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Synergy gives Live a huge advantage.

The ratings will be right on since every single piece of data is categorized. All Live has to do is make the animations and make the player follow suit to what they are good at. The DNA system can make AI that much better than a guy deciding "ok Artest shot x amount of 3's and made x amount of 3's, and based on watching him, he's a pretty good 3 point shooter, so I'm going to give him an 89" that is completely flawed, since our opinions are all different, subjective, and biased.

[NINJAK2]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Synergy gives Live a huge advantage.

The ratings will be right on since every single piece of data is categorized. All Live has to do is make the animations and make the player follow suit to what they are good at. The DNA system can make AI that much better than a guy deciding "ok Artest shot x amount of 3's and made x amount of 3's, and based on watching him, he's a pretty good 3 point shooter, so I'm going to give him an 89" that is completely flawed, since our opinions are all different, subjective, and biased.

I agree. I think that if they looked at your 3pt analogy and applied a rating based on % (ex: 45%= 90) and not just some random "I think he is a great shooter" rating, people may be a little more accepting of the ratings in 2k.

I personally think these games need to go the APF route and stop using a number ratings system. There is nothing funnier to me than hearing people argue that so in so should be a 86 overall, not a 89..Do you think players really evaluate themselves like that. Lebron on Kobe: "Man kobe is one of the toughest to defend in the game. With his 91 handle, 73 pass, 97 midrange, and 92 dunk he is a threat from everywhere on the floor."

Outside of shooting percentages and tendencies, no numbers should exist. Break all the other categories down into labels such as horrible,below average, average, above average, superior or something along those lines.

[franzis]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Outside of shooting percentages and tendencies, no numbers should exist. Break all the other categories down into labels such as horrible,below average, average, above average, superior or something along those lines.

Actually you already got something like this in 2k9
I mean the secondary rating system (A+, A, B, etc.)

[Stumbleweed]

Re: NBA 2K10 Draft Combine: 2K's DLC Gamble (Gamespot)

Except that's just there for association mode to make scouting have a point... otherwise it's just correlated to the number ratings underneath those ratings, which are actually driving the game...