NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

[NINJAK2]

Re: NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

My main concern with plays in 2k is the constant breaking of them and the lack of urgency in execution of them by the players. Fixing these things needs to be priorities one and two in looking at fixing their playcalling imo. If they can't fix that, adding Live's system would prove worthless.

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

The problem with authentic plays is after some time, you get used to what the CPU will do and the game will become predictable. Unless 2K can also implement passing to more than one option(like in real NBA) then I would be all for it.

I just don't see that happening. I see 2K taking authentic plays but can only pass to one specific place for the play to continue to be run. In real life there are always at least 2-3 options to pass to depending on how the defense is being played.

What up Bears ! I think I disagree a bit here. Teams run what they run. I can guarantee you tomorrow night your going to see the C's run a punch and dribble punch for garnett and you will see them get pierce involved in that slice and slice roll and slice post they run for him out of what I call their flex set. And they will run floppy options for Ray.

Now for the playoffs you will see them add wrinkles to their stuff but by and large a team is running a play for a specific options. watch how often they will run a specific play and get the ball to a specific player even if there is resistance. A good example is how hard they fight and hold ray ray before he comes off screens they know whats coming but in order to stop it you have to have more than the man guarding him which opens up something else.

The branching plays are still in live but you have to add them manually when they went authentic they removed a good portion of them.

Nba offense with the exception of a team like Utah and Chicago are not like college. By a large if they are running a post play for garnett on the left block they are going to deliver that pass on the left block.

Its really really not as random as it may appear. When you see a team run what looks like a variation out of the same set usually if you watch that team over time you see that it is a planned variation or another play out of the same exact set. That is why team find it hard to key on a particular play because of the counters that exist even though the set looks the same and that is what keeps them off balance.

One thing that has yet to be implemented and may not make it in for some time is secondary breaks and early offense some teams run. The celtics early offense is a killer. But those things are extremely difficult to put into a game from what I understand.

What kills most games however is that a typical nba team will run between 300-600 plays over the course of a season if you count the variations in a play. When you play the cpu they will usually even in live 10 run about 8-10 plays and then the bench guys may run the same sets the starters do.

To begin with you would need a cpu to have maybe 8 plays for a superstar to even begin to have some variability. But that would be a heck of a lot of plays.

Playbooks are going to have to get a lot deeper and MORE authentic and not less to give you the variability your looking for and then have the ability to deal with what happens if the entry pass is denied.

Even teams like golden state have defined sets they run you just have to watch them long enough to see them. I agree with a lot of the rest that has been said here. Some very good suggestions !

@ jeebs yeah man that would be the ticket moreso dynamic than a branch as the man coming off the screen would need to read the defense and see what is open. Usually when you see teams run their floppy set the second guy waits to see what the first one does to know where to go. THAT i think is the future I doubt we will see that next year tho.

[Da_Czar]

Re: NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

My thoughts too. What I would like to see (a dumbed down version) in case anyone is reading from 2K

If you have 4 guys playing on the perimeter (2 in the corners and 2 in the slot with the big man weak side low post). The ball is dribbled towards the strongside corner, the corner man has 2 options which he makes; go backdoor or run around for a dribble hand-off. Where the other players would make a read about what happens between the two.

If ball is dribbled to the opposite side, their are a set of rules players follow. A pass.. same thing.

That sounds a lot more like a college hoops offense to me Joakman. Sounds good but it might not end up looking like NBA hoops...

[JOakman]

Re: NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

That sounds a lot more like a college hoops offense to me Joakman. Sounds good but it might not end up looking like NBA hoops...

It's just an idea of a system that has rules. It is similar to what Lawrence Frank and Mike Woodson had in place fwiw. If there is a guy standing in the corner and you dribble at him, he shouldn't just stand still is my point.

[jeebs9]

Re: NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

What up Bears ! I think I disagree a bit here. Teams run what they run. I can guarantee you tomorrow night your going to see the C's run a punch and dribble punch for garnett and you will see them get pierce involved in that slice and slice roll and slice post they run for him out of what I call their flex set. And they will run floppy options for Ray.

Now for the playoffs you will see them add wrinkles to their stuff but by and large a team is running a play for a specific options. watch how often they will run a specific play and get the ball to a specific player even if there is resistance. A good example is how hard they fight and hold ray ray before he comes off screens they know whats coming but in order to stop it you have to have more than the man guarding him which opens up something else.

The branching plays are still in live but you have to add them manually when they went authentic they removed a good portion of them.

Nba offense with the exception of a team like Utah and Chicago are not like college. By a large if they are running a post play for garnett on the left block they are going to deliver that pass on the left block.

Its really really not as random as it may appear. When you see a team run what looks like a variation out of the same set usually if you watch that team over time you see that it is a planned variation or another play out of the same exact set. That is why team find it hard to key on a particular play because of the counters that exist even though the set looks the same and that is what keeps them off balance.

One thing that has yet to be implemented and may not make it in for some time is secondary breaks and early offense some teams run. The celtics early offense is a killer. But those things are extremely difficult to put into a game from what I understand.

What kills most games however is that a typical nba team will run between 300-600 plays over the course of a season if you count the variations in a play. When you play the cpu they will usually even in live 10 run about 8-10 plays and then the bench guys may run the same sets the starters do.

To begin with you would need a cpu to have maybe 8 plays for a superstar to even begin to have some variability. But that would be a heck of a lot of plays.

Playbooks are going to have to get a lot deeper and MORE authentic and not less to give you the variability your looking for and then have the ability to deal with what happens if the entry pass is denied.

Even teams like golden state have defined sets they run you just have to watch them long enough to see them. I agree with a lot of the rest that has been said here. Some very good suggestions !

@ jeebs yeah man that would be the ticket moreso dynamic than a branch as the man coming off the screen would need to read the defense and see what is open. Usually when you see teams run their floppy set the second guy waits to see what the first one does to know where to go. THAT i think is the future I doubt we will see that next year tho.

I totally agree

It would be really hard to put into the game. So many teams run the floppy set. I think the biggest problem would be the animation for these situations. The offense would probably be easy. But the defensive aniamtions would pretty hard to get perfect would out making it dominate.

[bearschicago]

Re: NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

What up Bears ! I think I disagree a bit here. Teams run what they run. I can guarantee you tomorrow night your going to see the C's run a punch and dribble punch for garnett and you will see them get pierce involved in that slice and slice roll and slice post they run for him out of what I call their flex set. And they will run floppy options for Ray.

Now for the playoffs you will see them add wrinkles to their stuff but by and large a team is running a play for a specific options. watch how often they will run a specific play and get the ball to a specific player even if there is resistance. A good example is how hard they fight and hold ray ray before he comes off screens they know whats coming but in order to stop it you have to have more than the man guarding him which opens up something else.

The branching plays are still in live but you have to add them manually when they went authentic they removed a good portion of them.

Nba offense with the exception of a team like Utah and Chicago are not like college. By a large if they are running a post play for garnett on the left block they are going to deliver that pass on the left block.

Its really really not as random as it may appear. When you see a team run what looks like a variation out of the same set usually if you watch that team over time you see that it is a planned variation or another play out of the same exact set. That is why team find it hard to key on a particular play because of the counters that exist even though the set looks the same and that is what keeps them off balance.

One thing that has yet to be implemented and may not make it in for some time is secondary breaks and early offense some teams run. The celtics early offense is a killer. But those things are extremely difficult to put into a game from what I understand.

What kills most games however is that a typical nba team will run between 300-600 plays over the course of a season if you count the variations in a play. When you play the cpu they will usually even in live 10 run about 8-10 plays and then the bench guys may run the same sets the starters do.

To begin with you would need a cpu to have maybe 8 plays for a superstar to even begin to have some variability. But that would be a heck of a lot of plays.

Playbooks are going to have to get a lot deeper and MORE authentic and not less to give you the variability your looking for and then have the ability to deal with what happens if the entry pass is denied.

Even teams like golden state have defined sets they run you just have to watch them long enough to see them. I agree with a lot of the rest that has been said here. Some very good suggestions !

@ jeebs yeah man that would be the ticket moreso dynamic than a branch as the man coming off the screen would need to read the defense and see what is open. Usually when you see teams run their floppy set the second guy waits to see what the first one does to know where to go. THAT i think is the future I doubt we will see that next year tho.

I agree with everything you said here regarding authentic plays. However I do not want 2K to implement authentic plays as I said previously as to why:

After further thinking 2K should not implement authentic plays. Rather what I said above which is you have 3-4 options depending on where you pass the ball.

The reason is because when playing Association/MyPlayer after the 1st season, there will be players change/possible coaching changes down the road.

I don't want to continue to run the same offense in future seasons when the players do not fit that system and coaches may not run them(if the coach before got fired in 2K).

The way mine works is through tendencies. For example a big man like Channing Frye, he likes to shoot 3's so in 2K he roams around the perimeter more hardly looking to post up. A post-up player like Gasol is more in the paint area constantly looking for back-down opportunities.

Obviously these two also set picks as well. But with tendencies in effect you can really tell how different big man plays and the CPU will replicate those players in the game. So players/coaching change will not have any effect because they play mainly by tendencies.

The bold part sums it up. Would I love authentic plays? Of course! However after finishing the 1st season of MyPlayer or Association and player changes are made, I don't want to continue to run the same sets if it does not fit the player. Same goes for the CPU.

If 2K can implement automatically changing playbooks depending on player/coaching changes during MyPlayer/Association that would be great but how would that work?

Also in real life basketball players swing the ball from strong side to weak side all the time. This could be due to defenders fronting the post(thus denying the pass into the post/etc etc). However in 2K10 this is not in the game. Once you break away from the play, the play gets canceled.

So in summary, say no to authentic plays but yes to plays being developed on-the-fly through tendencies/where the pass is made/where the players are on the court.

This would make playing against the AI CPU unpredictable and fun!

[luda06]

Re: NBA 2K11 - Lets Talk Playbook Improvements

I'd hate to revive old threads, but I was searching the forums and came across this bit.

As a avid Pistons fan, play calling is essential in video games as the team hasn't had a bona fide star since Grant Hill (pre-injury and Iverson does not count).

I believe there's a few things just flat out wrong with not just the play calling, but the gameplay mechanics in relation to it.

Richard (Rip) Hamilton sprints around screens to get an open shot. That is not the case in NBA 2K10. He'll jog around the screen, sometimes defeat the purpose of play by moving in a path outside of the teammate setting the screen altogether.

Also when playing against another person, usually they'll defeat the purpose of calling a screen by cheating on top to intercept the pass. In reality, if Rip notices his defender cheating, he'll cut back in the opposite direction, trapping his defender in the screen.

I believe there used to be hidden ratings for players for their ability to set screens in general. Bring that back. Big, bruising centers and forwards should be able to set some hard picks slowing down defenders significantly in comparison to lighter players.

Finally, not all big men regardless of size have the IQ to properly set a screen. There should be calls for illegal screens for players moving while setting them. Or for ball handlers initiating plays prematurely.

In conclusion, this is probably just a small part of the issues within the gameplay mechanics that hamper the play calling system. It doesn't matter how many plays the A.I. or the user runs if they're not efficient.

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