One concern I do have about simulation mode...

[Rocboyz101]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSS

I figured you'd like that. lol

[blues rocker]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

It's actually the reverse of what you're thinking. Nothing is pre-determined, the game is just balanced differently across the different game styles and difficulties. With regard to shooting for example, on easier levels/game styles, defensive pressure might be less effective or the impact of user error might be dampened. As you move up the difficulty, you really need to earn your baskets. When you force a shot, you're more likely to miss. If you nail your shot timing, you're given a bigger reward... but if you're off, you get punished harder. Basically, the goal was to force users to execute better basketball as they increased the difficulty. Playing solid defense, working for good shots, running plays, etc. = wins.

this is good to hear. but my main concern is shot success on open shots. the most important thing for Sim mode is that open shots should still go in at a high frequency. I don't want to be missing a bunch of wide open jumpers just because the game is trying to make the stats realistic. Instead, the CPU should be smarter on defense and try to contest my shots more effectively on SIM mode. Can you confirm that this is the case, Beluba?

There's really noting more frustrating that shooting a wide open shot with a good shooter and bricking it just because the game is trying to keep your stats down....hence that "scripted" feeling.

[bearschicago]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

this is good to hear. but my main concern is shot success on open shots. the most important thing for Sim mode is that open shots should still go in at a high frequency. I don't want to be missing a bunch of wide open jumpers just because the game is trying to make the stats realistic. Instead, the CPU should be smarter on defense and try to contest my shots more effectively on SIM mode. Can you confirm that this is the case, Beluba?

There's really noting more frustrating that shooting a wide open shot with a good shooter and bricking it just because the game is trying to keep your stats down....hence that "scripted" feeling.

Yes but have you ever heard of being "too wide open"? Announcers say this all the time when shooters miss a wide open shot.

But in general open shots should go in more than contested shots. But its not a huge bump. Some players shoot better when contested than open. Andre Iguodala for example.

[youvalss]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Derek Fisher can't make a shot when he's wide open. But you can send him a triple-team and he'd still make the 3 pointer.

[blues rocker]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Yes but have you ever heard of being "too wide open"? Announcers say this all the time when shooters miss a wide open shot.

But in general open shots should go in more than contested shots. But its not a huge bump. Some players shoot better when contested than open. Andre Iguodala for example.

I understand this, but it should not be the case in a video game. In the video game, there needs to be a system in place that rewards playing the "proper way." if players could just jack up contested jumpers all day, then there would be no point in executing to get open and there would be no point in playing defense against those players. there needs to be a clear "right" and "wrong" way to play the game, with the right way being rewarded with success and the wrong way being punished with failure...that is just how video games should work...otherwise it would just be a random cheese fest. I trust that 2k sees it my way.

[bearschicago]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

I understand this, but it should not be the case in a video game. In the video game, there needs to be a system in place that rewards playing the "proper way." if players could just jack up contested jumpers all day, then there would be no point in executing to get open and there would be no point in playing defense against those players. there needs to be a clear "right" and "wrong" way to play the game, with the right way being rewarded with success and the wrong way being punished with failure...that is just how video games should work...otherwise it would just be a random cheese fest. I trust that 2k sees it my way.

I do agree with what you're saying. I did say open shots should go in more than contested shots. All I'm saying is that its not a huge bump in real life. I would say depending on the player a 5-15% bump.

Otherwise you'd see more players in the NBA shoot better than 50% from the floor(that takes at least 10 shots a game).

[TheEasyEntertainment]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

i agree, finally some improvements

[Beluba]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

this is good to hear. but my main concern is shot success on open shots. the most important thing for Sim mode is that open shots should still go in at a high frequency. I don't want to be missing a bunch of wide open jumpers just because the game is trying to make the stats realistic. Instead, the CPU should be smarter on defense and try to contest my shots more effectively on SIM mode. Can you confirm that this is the case, Beluba?

There's really noting more frustrating that shooting a wide open shot with a good shooter and bricking it just because the game is trying to keep your stats down....hence that "scripted" feeling.

Yes, this is what I was trying to explain. In prior 2K's, shot %'s were flatter across the board. What I mean by that is the impact of different variables: good shot timing, openness, player ratings, matchups, etc. were all factored into the shot success heuristic which then generated your final shot %. The problem is that the weight of certain factors were balanced in such a way that it effectively took the user out of the equation to some degree.

We overhauled the system to ensure that the skill of the user and the execution of the shot were the primary factors in determining the outcome -- while still taking into account all of the subtle "sim" things that make our shot % algorithm so robust. So our shot %'s moved away from being flat to having more highs and lows based on the user's performance. The end result is a game in which you feel much more rewarded for working the ball and getting high quality shots, as well as executing the shot mechanic itself.

[coolcras7]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Yes, this is what I was trying to explain. In prior 2K's, shot %'s were flatter across the board. What I mean by that is the impact of different variables: good shot timing, openness, player ratings, matchups, etc. were all factored into the shot success heuristic which then generated your final shot %. The problem is that the weight of certain factors were balanced in such a way that it effectively took the user out of the equation to some degree.

We overhauled the system to ensure that the skill of the user and the execution of the shot were the primary factors in determining the outcome -- while still taking into account all of the subtle "sim" things that make our shot % algorithm so robust. So our shot %'s moved away from being flat to having more highs and lows based on the user's performance. The end result is a game in which you feel much more rewarded for working the ball and getting high quality shots, as well as executing the shot mechanic itself.

that is great to hear that playing more realistic will be more beneficial this year, thanks for following up. I have a question the CPU still seems a bit to smart in a few of the videos they did not react at all to when the user tried to do a fake pass will there be instances where playing against the CPU little things like that will actually be an affective tool.

[Beluba]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

that is great to hear that playing more realistic will be more beneficial this year, thanks for following up. I have a question the CPU still seems a bit to smart in a few of the videos they did not react at all to when the user tried to do a fake pass will there be instances where playing against the CPU little things like that will actually be an affective tool.

Yeah, I think Jerson mentioned that in last week's Insight. The CPU will react, sometimes to their detriment, to various fakes and moves like the fake pass based on their defensive awareness. You probably don't see a lot of biting in the clip because the user tried like 8 fake passes in a row. Not a very effective tactic against the AI.

[Dewie12]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

A generalization I have about 2k and EA is that 2k feels far less scripted game to game than EA.

From football to baseball to basketball I have always found 2k to have more variation game to game. I think it is an emphasis on individual players and teams....along with sliders.

I played a lot of 2k10....because of the variation of playing each team.

[blues rocker]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Yes, this is what I was trying to explain. In prior 2K's, shot %'s were flatter across the board. What I mean by that is the impact of different variables: good shot timing, openness, player ratings, matchups, etc. were all factored into the shot success heuristic which then generated your final shot %. The problem is that the weight of certain factors were balanced in such a way that it effectively took the user out of the equation to some degree.

We overhauled the system to ensure that the skill of the user and the execution of the shot were the primary factors in determining the outcome -- while still taking into account all of the subtle "sim" things that make our shot % algorithm so robust. So our shot %'s moved away from being flat to having more highs and lows based on the user's performance. The end result is a game in which you feel much more rewarded for working the ball and getting high quality shots, as well as executing the shot mechanic itself.

excellent. this shot algorithm in 2k11 sounds like the ideal one - it's always best when success is more reliant on getting OPEN shots. that is how I have always thought video game basketball should work, because it means the user can really control their own success by getting good shots, as opposed to success being more arbitrary or "stats-based" (scripted).

I have always liked that idea that you could pick a crappy team and still beat a good team by getting good shots. In certain other basketball games, success has seemed solely dependent on picking the most stacked roster and then whoever had the highest rated shooters would win. I'm really dying to play a game where you can shut down the other team and hold them to 30-35 percent shooting by playing great defense...or blow out the other team by getting open shots (not just by driving and dunking every time).



the way I envision the ideal basketball game is like this: let's use an example of a good outside shooter with a 90 long range shot rating.

if a shooter has a 90 long range shot rating, he should make 9 out of 10 WIDE open shots - this is what I define as a "high quality shot"...there are no defenders within 4 feet of him.

as the defender moves within 3 feet of the shooter, his success rate should drop as the defender gets within 3-4 feet, and then it shoud drop even more depending on how aggressively the shot is contested.

if the defender is standing in front of him, at about 3-4 feet away and the defender does not put his hand up to contest, the shooter should make 8 out of 10 (taking into account that the defender is not very close, and he's not contesting the shot either).

if the defender is about 3-4 feet away, but this time he jumps to contest the shot, the shooter should now only make 5 out of 10 (keep in mind the defender is still somewhat far away from him at this point, even though he did jump to contest).

if the defender moves to within 1 foot of the shooter but does not put his arm up to contest, the shooter should now make 3 out of 10 - this is what I define as a "poor shot" (the defender is not contesting, but he is standing directly in front of him and is in close proximity, so this should drop the shot success because the defender is now "invading" the shooter's space and making him uncomfortable).

if the shooter remains at 1 foot away BUT THIS TIME he puts his arm up to contest, the shooter should now only make 1 out of 10. this is "closely contested" and this is what i define as a "very poor shot" - defender is within 1 foot and is also contesting. (this is the key - if a shot is "closely contested," the shot success should drop drastically to almost nothing...even on good shooters - thus rewarding good defense). so, even though we're talking about a great shooter, he should still only make 1 out of 10 closely contested shots.

so in summary, when using a good shooter: wide open shots should go in almost every time (9 out of 10), and "closely contested" shots should almost never go in (only 1 out of 10).

hopefully 2k11 will work something like this.

I guess all of this really depends one how you (2k devs) define a "high quality shot", a "poor shot", and a "very poor shot." I gave you my definitions above, what are yours?

[blues rocker]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Beluba - One thing that might be nice is to add the option of displaying the "rating" of a shot as it leaves your hand - like maybe a number pops up in the top corner which displays how "good" of a shot it was on a scale of 1 - 10...meaning quality of shot selection. if you take a wide open shot with a good shooter, that would be a 10 rated shot. if you drive into the paint and try to float it over a center, that would be a 3 rated shot ( but if you're using a player that is good at this type of shot, it might go up to a 4 or 5)...you get my drift. this type of number display would really give the user a direct idea of how the game is defining good shots and bad shots based on factors like the shooter's abilities and the proximity of defenders.

[coolcras7]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Yeah, I think Jerson mentioned that in last week's Insight. The CPU will react, sometimes to their detriment, to various fakes and moves like the fake pass based on their defensive awareness. You probably don't see a lot of biting in the clip because the user tried like 8 fake passes in a row. Not a very effective tactic against the AI.

thanks I was a bit worried that certain moves would only be affective against a live user. 2k11 is looking to be better than anyone could have expected, now all we need is that insight on online to ease peoples minds and game over.

[coolcras7]

Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

Beluba - One thing that might be nice is to add the option of displaying the "rating" of a shot as it leaves your hand - like maybe a number pops up in the top corner which displays how "good" of a shot it was on a scale of 1 - 10...meaning quality of shot selection. if you take a wide open shot with a good shooter, that would be a 10 rated shot. if you drive into the paint and try to float it over a center, that would be a 3 rated shot ( but if you're using a player that is good at this type of shot, it might go up to a 4 or 5)...you get my drift. this type of number display would really give the user a direct idea of how the game is defining good shots and bad shots based on factors like the shooter's abilities and the proximity of defenders.

that would just add an unrealistic element to the game and would be to much of an advantage for the offensive team if they knew ahead of time that the shot was going to made but I guess it would be a nice feature in the casual game mode to help people new to the series, but more advance people know when we are taking a bad shot, they actually had something like that in draft combine after every decision you either received a positive or negative grade.