One concern I do have about simulation mode...

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  • threes_co
    Banned
    • Sep 2009
    • 1930

    #61
    Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

    Originally posted by blues rocker
    so you're actually saying that you don't want to be able to determine the outcome of the game with your own actions? you just want to sit there and watch a scripted event occur that is out of your control? that is not a video game, my friend - that is a movie. what you are describing is a MOVIE disguised as a video game.

    you might was well just sit there and watch the CPU play itself at that point.
    Exactly...

    Comment

    • Gosens6
      All Star
      • Oct 2007
      • 6100

      #62
      Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

      Originally posted by blues rocker
      so you're actually saying that you don't want to be able to determine the outcome of the game with your own actions? you just want to sit there and watch a scripted event occur that is out of your control? that is not a video game, my friend - that is a movie. what you are describing is a MOVIE disguised as a video game.

      you might was well just sit there and watch the CPU play itself at that point.
      Okay lets use this as an example.... You've played basketball before right i'm sure?

      When you shoot, you think you have great form, great arc, good release and everything else down. You're wide open, just shooting around in your backyard or at a gym. Sure sometimes you can make 7/10 shots because it's no pressure, no one else is around, but i'm sure at the same time you can go 2/10. If you don't think you playing in real life isn't total control, what is? You miss shots don't you? So do NBA players

      All i'm saying is no matter how your skill level, if you're in high school, college or the NBA it's possible to miss wide open shots. I mean come on if you seriously think going 7/10 or 9/10 as you stated in your original post is acceptable than I will have a hard time believing that you've played basketball or even watched a basketball game before.

      I'm not disagreeing with you that guys have great games where they do go 7/10 or 8/10 but that doesn't mean it's the norm. All i'm trying to explain to you. The highest team FG% by a team was 49% by Phoenix at home last year.

      Ray Allen, arguably the purest shooter in the NBA today shot 47% from the field for the season and that is amazing by NBA standards. To further my argument let's take a look at his last three games of the NBA Finals.

      June 10th he went 5-10 from the field and shot 0-4 from the 3 pt line. So overall he shot 50% for the game and 0% overall from the 3. I'm pretty sure not every one of those shots were contested either.

      June 15th he went 7-14 from the field overall and was only 2-5 from three.

      June 17th he went 3-14 overall and went 2-7 from three. So two of his shots were three pointers and he even missed 7 of those. Once again he was wide open on a lot of his shots.

      So after seeing this are you really going to tell me great shooters should always go 7-10 or 8-10 when they're wide open?

      Comment

      • bearschicago
        Pro
        • Jul 2008
        • 674

        #63
        Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

        Originally posted by blues rocker
        so you're actually saying that you don't want to be able to determine the outcome of the game with your own actions? you just want to sit there and watch a scripted event occur that is out of your control? that is not a video game, my friend - that is a movie. what you are describing is a MOVIE disguised as a video game.

        you might was well just sit there and watch the CPU play itself at that point.
        So if you take a wide open shot it should go in at 7-8 out of 10(going by your standards)? To me that makes it even more scripted.

        What about the release point? Or does that not matter at all? Shooting range? Hot-spot? A clutch 4th quarter(crunch time) shot? What if you missed three in a row leading up to that shot?

        Also NBA players don't make 70-80% of wide open shots. That is unrealistic. Otherwise more NBA players would shoot better than 50% from the field.

        I do believe Game Style here is very important. You play default while we Sim-heads play Simulation. This is what Game Style is for and 2K was very smart adding this. It caters to all audiences.

        Comment

        • Gosens6
          All Star
          • Oct 2007
          • 6100

          #64
          Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

          Originally posted by bearschicago
          So if you take a wide open shot it should go in at 7-8 out of 10(going by your standards)? To me that makes it even more scripted.

          What about the release point? Or does that not matter at all? Shooting range? Hot-spot? A clutch 4th quarter(crunch time) shot? What if you missed three in a row leading up to that shot?

          Also NBA players don't make 70-80% of wide open shots. That is unrealistic. Otherwise more NBA players would shoot better than 50% from the field.

          I do believe Game Style here is very important. You play default while we Sim-heads play Simulation. This is what Game Style is for and 2K was very smart adding this. It caters to all audiences.
          I'm trying to explain this man, take a look at my Ray Allen example in the last post. I just think we're in the minority here man.

          Comment

          • blues rocker
            MVP
            • Sep 2007
            • 1921

            #65
            Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

            Originally posted by Gosens6

            So after seeing this are you really going to tell me great shooters should always go 7-10 or 8-10 when they're wide open?

            yes! when they are wide open. what you don't understand is that getting wide open is rare, so some of the shots will be somewhat contested by defenders closing out on you, thus the percentages will drop to the normal 45-50 percent range. i'm saying that it's very rare in the nba or in 2k for one player to get 10 wide open shots in a game...BUT IF HE DID manage to get 10 wide open shots, he should make 7 of them...BUT this will never happen so you have nothing to worry about. what you don't understand is that it is nearly impossible for a player to get 10 wide open shots in 2k. there will be defenders around and the percentages will drop due to the defenders being nearby.

            most of the time while playing 2k, if you take 10 shots with a player, you might have 5 wide open ones, 3 partially contested , and 2 heavily contested. THEREFORE if you make 4 out of 5 of the wide open ones, and you make 1 out of 3 of the partially contested ones, and you make 0 out of 2 on heavily contested...overall you shot 5 out of 10 - NORMAL FOR A GREAT SHOOTER! get it?

            the defense evens things out and brings it down to normal percentages!

            keep in mind that we are also talking about a great shooter - a top 5 shooter in the league....if you are talking about a decent but not great shooter, obviously the percentage will be even lower. and since most NBA players are not amazing shooters, but are rather just decent shooters, the overall game percentages will drop even lower and level out to normal. i'm using an extreme example of a top 5 shooter. most players in the game do not fit into this high category.
            Last edited by blues rocker; 08-20-2010, 12:39 PM.

            Comment

            • threes_co
              Banned
              • Sep 2009
              • 1930

              #66
              Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

              Originally posted by Gosens6
              Okay lets use this as an example.... You've played basketball before right i'm sure?

              When you shoot, you think you have great form, great arc, good release and everything else down. You're wide open, just shooting around in your backyard or at a gym. Sure sometimes you can make 7/10 shots because it's no pressure, no one else is around, but i'm sure at the same time you can go 2/10. If you don't think you playing in real life isn't total control, what is?
              The variation in shot success should derive from different shot release speeds by the user. If you truly shoot a basketball the same way from the same spot everytime, it should go in everytime. I'm not saying that every perfect release in 2k11 should go in, but at least 70% of perfect releases with a great shooter should rip the core. It's really tricky, balancing simulation and user control.

              Comment

              • blues rocker
                MVP
                • Sep 2007
                • 1921

                #67
                Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                Originally posted by ace23
                The variation in shot success should derive from different shot release speeds by the user. If you truly shoot a basketball the same way from the same spot everytime, it should go in everytime. I'm not saying that every perfect release in 2k11 should go in, but at least 70% of perfect releases with a great shooter should rip the core. It's really tricky, balancing simulation and user control.
                exactly...I was leaving out the release point factor. earlier I was using a scenario in a which a top 5 shooter is taking 10 wide open shots and every shot is a perfect release. release timing will not be perfect every time in real gameplay, thus percentages will be affected even more. i was also using a scenario in which every shot was a "standing set shot." I was not factoring in "moving pull up jumpers", drifting shots, fadeaways etc....if you are moving slightly when shooting, obviously shot success would be affected negatively as well. so stop worrying so much about guys shooting 70 percent - it's not going to happen because of factors like defense, release point, and whether the player was moving at the time.

                Comment

                • Jano
                  You Dead Wrong
                  • May 2004
                  • 3161

                  #68
                  Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                  Originally posted by blues rocker
                  yes! when they are wide open. what you don't understand is that getting wide open is rare, so some of the shots will be somewhat contested by defenders closing out on you, thus the percentages will drop to the normal 45-50 percent range. i'm saying that it's very rare in the nba or in 2k for one player to get 10 wide open shots in a game...BUT IF HE DID manage to get 10 wide open shots, he should make 7 of them...BUT this will never happen so you have nothing to worry about. what you don't understand is that it is nearly impossible for a player to get 10 wide open shots in 2k. there will be defenders around and the percentages will drop due to the defenders being nearby.

                  most of the time while playing 2k, if you take 10 shots with a player, you might have 5 wide open ones, 3 partially contested , and 2 heavily contested. THEREFORE if you make 4 out of 5 of the wide open ones, and you make 1 out of 3 of the partially contested ones, and you make 0 out of 2 on heavily contested...overall you shot 5 out of 10 - NORMAL FOR A GREAT SHOOTER! get it?

                  the defense evens things out and brings it down to normal percentages!

                  keep in mind that we are also talking about a great shooter - a top 5 shooter in the league....if you are talking about a decent but not great shooter, obviously the percentage will be even lower. and since most NBA players are not amazing shooters, but are rather just decent shooters, the overall game percentages will drop even lower and level out to normal. i'm using an extreme example of a top 5 shooter. most players in the game do not fit into this high category.
                  I can feel you on this one blues all you want is the game to reward you for getting wide open shots. And I can understand what you're saying about making a higher percentage of your wide open shots too.

                  As long as the game keeps things in perspective like I don't want guys making wide open shots if their shot timing is completely off though. If the guy is wide open and shooting perfect releases w/ a 90+ rated 3pt shooter he should be knocking those down.

                  And I honestly don't have a problem with this if wide open shots are hard to come by. If the wide open ones are rare then people can still have off nights because there will be times when shot timing is off or they are forced into tough/contested shots all night.

                  Comment

                  • NINJAK2
                    *S *dd*ct
                    • Jan 2003
                    • 6185

                    #69
                    Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                    Originally posted by blues rocker

                    if a shooter has a 90 long range shot rating, he should make 9 out of 10 WIDE open shots - this is what I define as a "high quality shot"...there are no defenders within 4 feet of him.
                    Great post Blues..This is the only thing I disagreed with though. I don't think it's realistic to think that any great shooter is going to hit 90% of their wide open 3's. Ever seen anybody hit 90% of all their total shots in the 3pt contest? Players like Peja, Larry, Hodges,Ray Allen have all paticipated and never hit at that clip over the entire course of the contest. With the exception of the shot clock, they are in perfect conditions with no one guarding them. During real game time that % possibly drops even further. Of course players can get in that "zone" where they can't miss but I think a more likely percentage of a long range shooter who is wide open is probably between the 50-60% range. Great post though.
                    EA and 2k have the unfortunate task of trying to balance on a tightrope of fun and sim while trying not to fall 10,000 feet to their death. Instead of a safety net waiting down below there will just be angry customers quick to move out of the way and talk of their failure.

                    Comment

                    • Da_Czar
                      NBA 2K Gameplay Producer, Offensive AI System - SIM NATION
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 5408

                      #70
                      Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                      Originally posted by blues rocker
                      Yes, in a VIDEO GAME great shooters should not have an off game. If players start performing in ways that are not consistent with their skills, then what is the point of even playing the game at all? at that point you are not determining the result of the game with your own skill, you are instead simply watching a predetermined event occur that is completely out of your control...that completely defeats the purpose of playing video games entirely. THE ENTIRE POINT OF PLAYING VIDEO GAMES is that you are controlling the outcome based on what you are doing. if the game is just "playing itself" and executing random cold streaks, then I might as well not even bother playing it...at that point I might as well just watch a game on TV that is out of my control.
                      Blues If I can I would like to agree with what your saying here but offer another perspective.

                      One of the challenges I look forward to in and association mode in 2k ( not other game I know has replicated this ) it having to deal with what coaches deal with during an 82 game season.. Slumps. We all know they happen in real life. I love the fact that I have to manage how my team is going to score around the natural ups and downs of the season.

                      To me its no fun if I don't have that because I know what I will get exactly each game. Especially after I have mastered the controls.

                      2k makes it so that I have to account for that. Even outside of injuries. Fatigue and slumps make me adjust my playing styles throughout the course of the year.

                      Now having said that let me say that in 2k11 if you execute properly you will make more open shots that you did in 2k10. IMHO in the time I had with the game. So I don't think it will be an issue.

                      I know the other game will provide exactly what your asking for even up to 100% if you execute. I am more than fine with having 2 games with seperate approaches on how to handle this.
                      Catch me on that #SimNation #SimHangOut Friday's @ 10:00 pm est https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...N7yxMiElOpMl_B

                      Comment

                      • brs2305
                        Rookie
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 241

                        #71
                        Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                        Originally posted by Da_Czar
                        Blues If I can I would like to agree with what your saying here but offer another perspective.

                        One of the challenges I look forward to in and association mode in 2k ( not other game I know has replicated this ) it having to deal with what coaches deal with during an 82 game season.. Slumps. We all know they happen in real life. I love the fact that I have to manage how my team is going to score around the natural ups and downs of the season.

                        To me its no fun if I don't have that because I know what I will get exactly each game. Especially after I have mastered the controls.

                        2k makes it so that I have to account for that. Even outside of injuries. Fatigue and slumps make me adjust my playing styles throughout the course of the year.

                        Now having said that let me say that in 2k11 if you execute properly you will make more open shots that you did in 2k10. IMHO in the time I had with the game. So I don't think it will be an issue.

                        I know the other game will provide exactly what your asking for even up to 100% if you execute. I am more than fine with having 2 games with seperate approaches on how to handle this.

                        I totally agree on the association part here with you. That what I always say, this is why association is would be worth playing at all. All of these problems coaches have to deal with in an 82 games season.

                        However on the other hand for exhibition games and maybe season (not association!) games if whished I think it absolutely ok and actually better.

                        Anyways to get some clarity into this topic. I remember seeing this stat on 82games.com a long long time ago and I found it.

                        A look at individual player offensive production by the contested level of a shot for the Sacrmento Kings in the NBA 2004-05 season.


                        Hope this helps...

                        Peace!!
                        Basketball Champions League Roster http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ns-league.html

                        Comment

                        • ronyell
                          SimWorld Sports Inc - CEO
                          • Dec 2005
                          • 5932

                          #72
                          Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                          Originally posted by Beluba
                          It's actually the reverse of what you're thinking. Nothing is pre-determined, the game is just balanced differently across the different game styles and difficulties. With regard to shooting for example, on easier levels/game styles, defensive pressure might be less effective or the impact of user error might be dampened. As you move up the difficulty, you really need to earn your baskets. When you force a shot, you're more likely to miss. If you nail your shot timing, you're given a bigger reward... but if you're off, you get punished harder. Basically, the goal was to force users to execute better basketball as they increased the difficulty. Playing solid defense, working for good shots, running plays, etc. = wins.
                          so i'm a lil confused... how is this different from the current difficulty levels? is it not the same thing & can we be given a slight example of how they are different? how are difficulty settings seperated now if thats what the "modes" are going to do?
                          SIMWORLD HOOPS - JOIN, DISCUSS or WATCH
                          THE ONLY PLACE WHERE YOU CAN:
                          #SeeTheGameBeTheGame

                          Comment

                          • Gosens6
                            All Star
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 6100

                            #73
                            Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                            Originally posted by ronyell


                            so i'm a lil confused... how is this different from the current difficulty levels? is it not the same thing & can we be given a slight example of how they are different? how are difficulty settings seperated now if thats what the "modes" are going to do?


                            It's all right there my man

                            Comment

                            • Boilerbuzz
                              D* B**rs!
                              • Jul 2002
                              • 5154

                              #74
                              Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                              Originally posted by blues rocker
                              Beluba - One thing that might be nice is to add the option of displaying the "rating" of a shot as it leaves your hand - like maybe a number pops up in the top corner which displays how "good" of a shot it was on a scale of 1 - 10.
                              Can you imagine the crying if they did that?

                              Comment

                              • Positive Chance
                                Banned
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 438

                                #75
                                Re: One concern I do have about simulation mode...

                                Originally posted by Boilerbuzz
                                Can you imagine the crying if they did that?
                                lmao . it would be horrible IMO

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