All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

I think with this whole "physics" revolution....people are making themselves believe theyve never controlled anything....lol

I agree partly. And its kinda strange. By and large next gen sports games (EA mainly) took at step backward when it came to baseline control by the user. Look at Madden '04 and Madden 11. The animations are much more crisp on the '04 version and there are nowhere near the amount of WTF moments.

[2kfanatic]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

So basically every game needs to have great animations but animations should not play out too long to the point that it takes away control from the player.

I don't think that the current tech is capable of handling real time physics and render smooth realistic animations at the same time. Since every collision is almost unique from the other, the devs will have a problem branching the corresponding animations since there are infinite numbers of scenarios when dealing with that kind of tech.

But I think RTP will work well with football and hockey since these games are very physical and tackles are very common unlike in basketball where in every bump will result into a different looking layup, dribble, passing etc....

[23]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

Don't let anyone tell you animations are a bad thing.

Thats just silly, especially in the sport of basketball.

As stated time and again, as long as you can have a balance of control and animations then there is no problem.

2k started with great animations on the dreamcast and that helped them catapult to where they are now. Its apart of the game... someone telling you animations are bad doesnt have them.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

it all depends on how you define "canned." certain types of animations need to be "canned" because there is a very specific way that movement is performed (jump shots, layups, dunks, spin moves, etc.)...these types of movements will always be "canned" or "predetermined" because they are so specific. Incidental animations (like contact, bumping, stumbling, tripping) - these types of animations can be physics-based.

Basketball is a game that requires "canned" animations more than any other sport because the movements in basketball are much more complex and varied than most sports. Think about it...in football and baseball there are really only very basic movements that need to be implemented - running, catching, etc. for the most part all people run the same way. But the game of basketball has so many different ways you can shoot the ball, dribble the ball, etc...there is a personal "style" who how players move. because of these specific movements, there will always be some canned animation in basketball games.

Thats it in a nutshell. Even with Euphoria basketball games would have canned animations so its all in how you define them.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

All animations can be physics based.

Good luck creating real dribbling animations with physics. We are a long way from that.

[Jano]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

Animations are needed i really don't know how the game would be played without them lol! Now what I think you are talking about is two player animations (as other guys have said) the ones where the offense and defense play out a sequence together.

Now those are good to have because they keep the game together and under control.

Anyways my problem with 2K's animations last year were the canned ones were just too long. They would have your player being jostled and knocked around longer then necessary.

It seems like those have been improved and have been made into more of a bang-bang sequence. For example if you run into a defender or he cuts you off, you either get knocked off your course for a second or you lose your dribble. That to me is good representation of how bball should work when it comes to canimations.

Everything should be quick and to the point you shouldn't have to watch some long drawn out thing. Just let the contact happen and lets move on simple as that. If the guy can't dribble he loses or picks up the ball and if he can dribble he's just slowed down momentarily.

This makes things much simpler for the player to understand. It also keeps guys from trying to dribble in certain situations because they know they may risk losing the ball.

[illmatic174]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

i just dont like when i wanna pump fake near the rim and instead i do some ******** collision into the defender that equals an automatic miss

[tgoat22]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

i agree, if there are going to be canned shot animations, they should only happen when we want them to. and this happened in both 2k10 and live 10

[Dawgthem]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

I don't think nothign was necessarily wrong with the shot animations just a few i mean most were tweaked toward your direction of the rim..i only saw a few like dalembert against j kidd doing an akward shot when he should easily be able to shoot over him..but other than that the shots seemed on a realistic level and flow

[23]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

I think with this whole "physics" revolution....people are making themselves believe theyve never controlled anything....lol

I agree man, these guys are bored to death

They've forgotten everything

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

I agree partly. And its kinda strange. By and large next gen sports games (EA mainly) took at step backward when it came to baseline control by the user. Look at Madden '04 and Madden 11. The animations are much more crisp on the '04 version and there are nowhere near the amount of WTF moments.

Maybe not with the animations but the game itself had a lion share of WTF moments.

[Beluba]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

Animations are needed i really don't know how the game would be played without them lol! Now what I think you are talking about is two player animations (as other guys have said) the ones where the offense and defense play out a sequence together.

Now those are good to have because they keep the game together and under control.

Anyways my problem with 2K's animations last year were the canned ones were just too long. They would have your player being jostled and knocked around longer then necessary.

It seems like those have been improved and have been made into more of a bang-bang sequence. For example if you run into a defender or he cuts you off, you either get knocked off your course for a second or you lose your dribble. That to me is good representation of how bball should work when it comes to canimations.

Everything should be quick and to the point you shouldn't have to watch some long drawn out thing. Just let the contact happen and lets move on simple as that. If the guy can't dribble he loses or picks up the ball and if he can dribble he's just slowed down momentarily.

This makes things much simpler for the player to understand. It also keeps guys from trying to dribble in certain situations because they know they may risk losing the ball.

Good post. It's a little disturbing to see how 2P anims have all of the sudden become an evil thing. It wasn't that long ago that multi-player anims were first introduced in the hoops genre and it was looked at as a big step forward for basketball gaming.

Now granted, I believe both games are guilty of going too far the past few years to the point of sacrificing control for the sake of aesthetics... or in some cases, relying on canned anims as a crutch to make up for unbalanced game mechanics. But 2P anims have their place if implemented properly.

I think Jano hit the nail on the head. It's all about using those anims in the correct situations to yield proper player interaction without making the user feel like he's stuck watching something play out for a long period of time without his consent.

I do think at some point (maybe next gen) we'll be able to resolve all player to player contact with a real time euphoria-like physics driven IK solution that generates realistic collision responses without guys flailing around like rag dolls. But for the forseeable future, 2P anims (or at least, coordinated single player animations) are the best technique for achieving good looking/feeling physical play that resembles real life basketball.

[TUSS11]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

Good post. It's a little disturbing to see how 2P anims have all of the sudden become an evil thing. It wasn't that long ago that multi-player anims were first introduced in the hoops genre and it was looked at as a big step forward for basketball gaming.

Now granted, I believe both games are guilty of going too far the past few years to the point of sacrificing control for the sake of aesthetics... or in some cases, relying on canned anims as a crutch to make up for unbalanced game mechanics. But 2P anims have their place if implemented properly.

I think Jano hit the nail on the head. It's all about using those anims in the correct situations to yield proper player interaction without making the user feel like he's stuck watching something play out for a long period of time without his consent.

I do think at some point (maybe next gen) we'll be able to resolve all player to player contact with a real time euphoria-like physics driven IK solution that generates realistic collision responses without guys flailing around like rag dolls. But for the forseeable future, 2P anims (or at least, coordinated single player animations) are the best technique for achieving good looking/feeling physical play that resembles real life basketball.

I guess at this point in time with the current technology that's available, the best solution (considering both functionality and aesthetics) for player interactions is two-player animations with branching that respects user input from both the offensive and defensive players.

Let's use 2K10's post game as an example. If the O drop-stepped baseline and the D made an incorrect counter the drop-step would be successful. But if the defense pressed the left stick baseline and timed the steal correctly he would knock the ball loose. Both instances started as the same two-player animation but branched into different outcomes based on the users' input.

If I understand correctly, you guys implemented this branching technique into other parts of the game like ball-handling and finishing at the basket. Is this correct?

[Jano]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

I like the fact the devs let us know about 2P's (nice abbreviation by the way haha) gives me a better idea of why certain things play out the way they do.

I've always been fascinated with the development of these games and there would be times that I would get annoyed with something and not know how to properly state what I didn't like.

So when you guys give us terms like locomotion or two player animations it really sticks out to me. And it helps me get a better understanding of what I'm seeing and how I can best voice my complaints or praises.

I don't know why but I like being able to talk to you guys knowing I might have at least a basic understanding of the technical side of it lol!

And personally I don't have a problem with the 2P's as long as they are not getting in the way of my enjoyment of the game like they would at times in past games. I'm all for them if they are tuned correctly like they seem to be in this year's game.

[Rocboyz101]

Re: All DO animations necessarily make a game bad

Jano explained it early perfectly imo. As long as we aren't watching a movie when players interact with each other..more like a short preview clip. It looks like 2k11 has this fixed.