Finally figured this game out!

[Mos1ted]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I've gone on an extended winning run once. Usually the game's pretty close. Yes, that's fun, but the opposite usually happens. And when I'm on the run, there's a nagging feeling that I'm winning only because of the same simplistic, artificial mechanic I usually lose by. 2K11 had this, and it was also artificial, but because it wasn't as ridiculous and unsurmountable it could go back and forth and was actually somewhat enjoyable. 2K12 just has you fall off a steep hill if either team allows for a major run and it's much more difficult to come back by starting one yourself. The CPU gets to because of the scripted boost. That's not really NBA.

I don't actually enjoy knowing the artificial momentum will kick in in full force if I happen to miss a few shots and lapse on defense for a possession or two, or if it's the 3rd quarter, and my players will start moving slow, make bad decisions, blow wide open shots and layups and the AI will start a block fest. It's simply too artificial and pronounced to be believable or enjoyable. I think there should be momentum and it should be nuanced. It shouldn't be a switch that makes everyone on my team, from superstar to scrub, automatically lose their minds. Like I said, I feel more like I'm gaming the system than the collection of players on the court.

The momentum also punishes you for shooting slumps and you simply can't shoot your way out of it like Ray Allen recommends. Even if you work for the easy shot or layup with your star player like you're supposed to to end the slump, it continues to punish you with incredulous misses instead of rewarding you. You miss shots you need to make and should make just because you're down. That breaks believability, fun, and immersion for me. Tone this down, make it more nuanced so it isn't a heavy teamwide nerf, make it affect harder shots with less effect on easy shots, and minimal effect on gimmie shots, and we have a game.

This pretty much sums up my dissatisfaction with this game. It's just hard to get immersed in the game knowing that scripted sequences will happen at the precise moment in every single game. This somewhat ruined 2K11 for me as well, but I agree; it is definitely worse this year.

[Cossolotto32]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

The CPU gets to because of the scripted boost. That's not really NBA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH1ldjLFUPo&feature=related

But comebacks happen all of the time, definitely not as frequently as it does in 2K

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

First of all, clutch factor doesn't affect "momentum" at all. Clutch factor is a temporary ratings boost for players in late game situations. It use to affect late in the 24 sec clock as well but that was changed this year. It only affects the last 2 mins of the game and last few seconds in a quarter. It's not what a lot of people think it is.

From my understanding of the game, momentum is the impact that individual players have when they start heating up. For instance, if Kobe hits 2 or three shots in a row, he will begin a hot streak... The player's consistency rating determines how long he can hold it or how quickly he can break a cold streak. If you have 2 or 3 players that have a decent consistency and make a few shots in a row, it equals momentum. Calling TO's level the streak that a player is on. You may notice that the CPU will keep going to certain players or that they will start hitting impossible shots. Normally, this is because they are either heating up or already hot. You can also level a player's hot shooting with double teams, forcing the ball out of his hands, or playing great defense to cause him to miss.
Hot streaks cool with time. If you don't let a hot player get the ball, depending on his consistency, he will automatically lose his hot streak in a short amount of time. The higher the consistency, the longer it takes for the hot streak to fade.

High rated shooters, on a hot streak, shooting from red areas on the court, off of an assist, in a preferred hot spot is a player that probably wont miss. Get it? Yes, there is a difference between Hot Spots on the court and preferred hot spots. I wish they would change the name of one of them because it can be rather confusing.


NO, in the 3rd quarter the cpu doesn't get some miraculous boost. They cpu has adjusted it's gameplan according to how you have played so far. If you aren't making coaching adjustments, the cpu will probably start to shut you down. This is the "adaptive AI" that everyone wanted.

Hope this helps....

[Mos1ted]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

First of all, clutch factor doesn't affect "momentum" at all. Clutch factor is a temporary ratings boost for players in late game situations. It use to affect late in the 24 sec clock as well but that was changed this year. It only affects the last 2 mins of the game and last few seconds in a quarter. It's not what a lot of people think it is.

From my understanding of the game, momentum is the impact that individual players have when they start heating up. For instance, if Kobe hits 2 or three shots in a row, he will begin a hot streak... The player's consistency rating determines how long he can hold it or how quickly he can break a cold streak. If you have 2 or 3 players that have a decent consistency and make a few shots in a row, it equals momentum. Calling TO's level the streak that a player is on. You may notice that the CPU will keep going to certain players or that they will start hitting impossible shots. Normally, this is because they are either heating up or already hot. You can also level a player's hot shooting with double teams, forcing the ball out of his hands, or playing great defense to cause him to miss.
Hot streaks cool with time. If you don't let a hot player get the ball, depending on his consistency, he will automatically lose his hot streak in a short amount of time. The higher the consistency, the longer it takes for the hot streak to fade.

High rated shooters, on a hot streak, shooting from red areas on the court, off of an assist, in a preferred hot spot is a player that probably wont miss. Get it? Yes, there is a difference between Hot Spots on the court and preferred hot spots. I wish they would change the name of one of them because it can be rather confusing.


NO, in the 3rd quarter the cpu doesn't get some miraculous boost. They cpu has adjusted it's gameplan according to how you have played so far. If you aren't making coaching adjustments, the cpu will probably start to shut you down. This is the "adaptive AI" that everyone wanted.

Hope this helps....

Everything you said sounds good in theory, but unfortunately, the reality of what's actually happening under the hood is the total opposite. There are scripts in this game, plain and simple.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Everything you said sounds good in theory, but unfortunately, the reality of what's actually happening under the hood is the total opposite. There are scripts in this game, plain and simple.

I have seen "under the hood". You can believe your theory if you like. It really doesn't make a lot of sense for them to make a "scripted" game to make you frustrated on purpose.

If you are playing on the higher difficulty levels, it is designed to make the cpu have more of an advantage so you can have a challenge if you need more. Otherwise, the game is tuned to All Star for the most realistic experience.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I have seen "under the hood". You can believe your theory if you like. It really doesn't make a lot of sense for them to make a "scripted" game to make you frustrated on purpose.

If you are playing on the higher difficulty levels, it is designed to make the cpu have more of an advantage so you can have a challenge if you need more. Otherwise, the game is tuned to All Star for the most realistic experience.

Sovartus are you saying nothing is scripted? I have to dissagree with that. Sometimes the runs are generated by what I see as scripted rebounding, passes or bad passes or lack of rebounding by my team. There is a fine line between scripting and seeing your teammates behave with no court awareness at the wrong time, backing away from rebounds not contesting shots in the paint unless I control them to me that starts to come into scripting. I don't even need to mention that sometimes the contesting with the right stick delays at times when it wants to let the CPU get a certain shot off on the perimeter meanwhile the CPU is contesting consistently even when given space sometimes.

I have mainly played all star against the CPU. The game is tuned for all star to have the most realistic experience thanks for that input but I wish the CPU didn't have to be programmed to perfectly slide in position or speed up to flash levels to get into position when beat off dribble to acheive a "realistic" experience. I feel like I can break the momentum plenty of ways but the coding of the difficulty can get in the way and force you to play the way 2K wants you to play against the CPU or what they have allowed the CPU to let you get away with during certain possesions.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Sovartus are you saying nothing is scripted? I have to dissagree with that. Sometimes the runs are generated by what I see as scripted rebounding, passes or bad passes or lack of rebounding by my team. There is a fine line between scripting and seeing your teammates behave with no court awareness at the wrong time, backing away from rebounds not contesting shots in the paint unless I control them to me that starts to come into scripting. I don't even need to mention that sometimes the contesting with the right stick delays at times when it wants to let the CPU get a certain shot off on the perimeter meanwhile the CPU is contesting consistently even when given space sometimes.

I have mainly played all star against the CPU. The game is tuned for all star to have the most realistic experience thanks for that input but I wish the CPU didn't have to be programmed to perfectly slide in position or speed up to flash levels to get into position when beat off dribble to acheive a "realistic" experience. I feel like I can break the momentum plenty of ways but the coding of the difficulty can get in the way and force you to play the way 2K wants you to play against the CPU or what they have allowed the CPU to let you get away with during certain possesions.

I can tell you that I have seen the coding and programming working in rare form and there was nothing "scripted" that I have seen in the six 6-10 hour days that I have spent playing the "yet to be released" versions of the game. I think a lot of people forget that this is a video game and expect the game to behave like what they see on television. Guys, that is never going to happen.

I believe that what you see in the speed bursts, and super sliding moments is the presentation trying to catch up with the inputs of the cpu and controller. If you issue a command (let's say engage the LT), and then you issue a second command immediately afterwards (let's say move the RS), the first command is cancelled and the second one is issued. We all said we didn't want to be stuck in little mini movies (waiting for animations to finish before we could control our player again) and this is what we have. This is probably why you are experiencing that slight delay when attempting to contest a shot. Remember, the development team tried to satisfy both parties this year by incorporating a way to have the auto contest work and still give people full manual control at the same time. It looks like this wasn't implemented as well as they anticipated.

As far as rebounding is concerned, I have noticed on the lower difficulties, the cpu doing a lot more for you. At least to me, on the higher difficulty settings, I am required to do much more manual rebounding. I have come to expect this and have adusted my game to include this skill set. I have began to see results from just simply boxing out instead of switching to my bigs to bring manual help defense. I have noticed that bring the manual help D puts my guys out of position to box out weak side guys and that seems to be where the cpu hurts me the most. Normally, I will switch to the best rebounder that is the farthest from the action. He is usually the "dummy" who lets someone swoop in and grab the board, tip in, or dunk. If you don't manually rebound with him or if you have him set to help in your defensive settings, he will more than likely always be out of position for the rebound. In my opinion, there is a major difference between the way my bigs rebound on Pro and not so much on All Star.

Passing has always been a problem on 2K in my experience. I don't think it is the conspiracy that everyone is claiming it to be though. You don't have control over the type of pass you need to throw in certain situations. The only game you could do this on was College Hoops 2K8 (I think). The AI makes dumb passes and they get picked off. There is also the issue of players running into crowed areas or simply out of position when you pass to them. Main reason I say that you can't blame "scripting" for the passing situation you have described is, you have to press the button to pass the ball. You completely control when a pass is made and to whom it is passed. We as users can make smarter, more conservative passes.

I, like you, was very frustrated when I first started playing 2K12 and saw my cpu teammates making bone headed decisions like they had absolutely NO court awareness or basketball IQ for that matter. Then I started adjusting the defensive settings and coaching sliders and found them to behave much more intelligent or at least behave the way that I expect them to in my system. Sometimes I believe it's more about our perception of how they "should" act more so than what is really going on.

Hope this helps....

[Sundown]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

From my understanding of the game, momentum is the impact that individual players have when they start heating up.

NO, in the 3rd quarter the cpu doesn't get some miraculous boost. They cpu has adjusted it's gameplan according to how you have played so far. If you aren't making coaching adjustments, the cpu will probably start to shut you down. This is the "adaptive AI" that everyone wanted.

Hope this helps....

There's individual hot streaks but there is also team momentum. Then entire team starts to perform better or worse if you miss shots or lapse on defense. My working theory is that the AI gets a momentum boost in the 3rd quarter because my team and the CPU team starts out playing the same way as when momentum is against me in other quarters.

I strongly feel that there is something scripted or a bug that behaves like it's scripted. After a 12 hour continuous session on All-Star with the same teams, I was getting pretty much the same results-- close game through the first half, better CPU defense, more hyperactive offense, and more missed open shots and other mistakes from my team in the second half.

Can you detail *how* you've observed the CPU make a defensive adjustment? What I mean by that is what different basketball strategy did you see the CPU employ that differed from the first half? Does it actually play tighter up close D if you're shooting well? Does it pack the paint if you're driving? Can you take advantage of this adjustment-- being able to drive more if the D is defending shots and being able to shoot better when the D is focusing on the paint?

My suspicion is no-- the defensive adjustment I saw was simply the AI's on ball defense becoming more twitchy and getting a boost-- it both defended shots tighter AND made it more difficult for me to drive. It left me with less options overall rather than adjusting and forcing me to respond to new openings. Automatically better defense isn't a defensive adjustment. It's just an artificial boost. I could be completely wrong, but I'd love to have the AI's defensive adjustment pointed out to me and be shown how it's using a differing, legitimate basketball strategy at the half, and how I can take advantage of the adjustment like I'm supposed to.

I will agree that I don't think the game "scripts" turnovers and specific, stupid mistakes on purpose. It's not like the CPU thinks "I really need them to throw a bad pass so I can intercept and win." I do think that much of the time the pass logic simply fails, and because if fails so often, it also fails at the worst times. I also think that the keep-score-close-catchup code simply reduces overall effectiveness of your team and boosts the CPU's performance, and as a result, mistakes become more plentiful, sometimes in key times that makes the game feel like it's conspiring against you. Either way, I think team momentum/keep-score-close boosts need to be toned down and be adjusted so that outlandish mistakes don't become so plentiful and predictable.

[Sundown]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH1ld...eature=related

But comebacks happen all of the time, definitely not as frequently as it does in 2K

Comebacks happen for both teams in the NBA. In my experience combacks mainly happen for the CPU. Like I said, the runs just don't feel natural. The first half feels natural. The runs can go either way. The second, not so much (on All-Star and above). I thought the folks saying the game was scripted were out to lunch all last year-- if there was catchup scripting, it wasn't as heavy handed and was more easily overcome-- but my opinion changed and solidified after a night of CPU catchup runs in the second half, including a 17-4 run when I was up 10 at the 4th.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Sovartus,

The speed boosts I am talking about is when the CPU is out of position and then they do this turbo boost to get back into position. It is just so unrealistic but one scenario is when you manage to beat the CPU off dribble say at the three point line. The CPU will then turn around and speed up "turbo" to be in position to not only contest but get in front of the man that beat them off the dribble that man is me the user. This has nothing to do with input on the controller, it is exaggerated on ball defense that is not realistic. I am not expecting to see perfect replication of what happens in the NBA but this is not real and had to be programmed to happen. I see it as a simple IF/THEN line of code. If beat off dribble then accelerate to catch up simple as that. I call it the magical catch up animation it happens on fast breaks too

The other scenario is where on occasion you are able to get the CPU out of position say you are kicking the ball out on the perimeter. I have seen this magical speed boost where the CPU starts out in the lane and when I press the button the CPU speeds up "turbo" to contest the jumper to a low grade. They are just covering too much ground and you can see the one CPU player just moving at warp speed.

Rebounding I feel is scripted for the reason that each rebound is pretty much guarenteed to go where the CPU sets up in the paint. There is nothing live about rebounding, no randomness at all. Don't you notice that almost every rebound comes off at the same location. The CPU will go to the spot as soon as the shot is up in the air, low and behold the ball is right in their hands. There are no long rebounds. If I am playing on ball defense and contesting shots it is a litte too late to box out after the ball is released and I jumped to contest. What I see is sometimes not every single possession but your CPU controlled teammates will back away from rebounds when they are in position to get rebounds. I have seen the CPU jump backwards to get a offensive rebound they had no way of seeing where the ball going, just defying reality so to me the rebounding is scripted. I have seen the CPU move to the exact position where the ball is going and me having three guys in the area does nothing

[TeddyKGB]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

The momentum also punishes you for shooting slumps and you simply can't shoot your way out of it like Ray Allen recommends. Even if you work for the easy shot or layup with your star player like you're supposed to to end the slump, it continues to punish you with incredulous misses instead of rewarding you. You miss shots you need to make and should make just because you're down.

This.

My biggest problem with playing the cpu has always been scripted feel of makes/misses. It goes beyond a roll of a dice based on my player's rating and the defense; it goes beyond hot or cold streaks; it goes beyond release points; it goes beyond the Consistency rating. Something else is at work behind the scenes and it is very frustrating.

It occurs both when you're down and when you're up. When you're up, just on the cusp of putting the game out of sight, your shooters will start inexplicably missing a ton of WIDE OPEN looks. These are what I call "Oh, come on!" or "F*ck that!" misses, because those are generally the kinds of things I say when the shots clank horribly off the rim. And sometimes Steve Kerr and Clark Kellogg, as if they're cognizant of the scripted outcome, tell you your wide open shot was a "bad shot" or that good defense caused the miss when in fact, there was no one within ten feet of the shooter.

When you're down, the same phenomenon often occurs, but also you'll occasionally hit a hot streak and start making everything, as if the ai wants to give you a chance. This rarely happens because of offensive adjustments or defensive lapses and it feels just as arbitrary as when you're missing the same looks. Even when I'm the beneficiary, it still feels wrong.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I will respond to some of the other comments a little later but for now, yes, as you move up in difficulty level, you get punished more for missed shots. That is in the game for sure. Remember guys, I'm on your side. I'm not a fanboy as I have visited EA as well when they were working on NBA Elite 11. I just like to fill folks in on things I have been blessed to see and give the developers credit for the numerous things they do well. Lately, I have been studying the game more and have complained about many of the things you guys are talking about. A lot of the conversations I have had since I posted my concerns have given me a lot of insight and helped me put some things together to explain a lot and took me from being frustrated on Pro to competing on Hall of Fame with hopes of winning on default sliders.

I know about the defensive adjustments because I once believed as you do about scripting and cpu cheating and was told specifically by the developers (face to face) that it is the cpu making adjustments to your gameplay. I don't have any reason to believe that they would lie to me face to face to hide some conspiracy for scripted gameplay. They all giggled and made jokes about it because they think it's ridiculous that people say the game is scripted. It's really a slap in the face to their efforts to make a realistic bball game. Why would they do that? I didn't have an answer for them when they asked me that they couldn't destroy in a matter of seconds. Besides, I've seen so much of how the game works under the hood that I just don't see how they could do it or why they would install something that breaks the code on purpose for the sake of making you lose... just doesn't make sense.

Just my perspective, not the perspective. The way you see things is your reality and I can't argue with that. If you see it that way and you feel that it is as you percieve, then that is the way it is for you. I can respect your opinion.

[Slava Medvadenko]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Sovartus, I have two questions that don't really relate to difficulty, but I've been wondering about them for the last two years. If you know anything about them any insight would be appreciated. First, does the cpu go into a steal animation as soon as you press the pass button? Sometimes I'll go to replay when I get a turnover and the cpu seems to react just when or very close to the moment I press the pass button. Its very difficult for a human to react as fast as some of them do. They also get a bunch of catch steals, which is difficult for me to do even with a +90 steal guy.

Second, do defensive and offensive awareness do more than their descriptions say they do? Defensive is your ability to pick up the ballhander and double team, and offensive is your ability to react to double teams and get loose balls. I read somewhere that to get your teammates to play better when you aren't controlling them is to up these settings, which isn't in their descriptions. Also, what is the advantage for improving 'emotion'? Influencing more calls from the ref?

[blues rocker]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Yeah, I noticed that momentum factor as well. I have to say, I don't really like it. It's fine for momentum to have a minor impact on a team's success, but it appears momentum is a bit overpowered to the point of being magical success cheese or magical failure cheese, depending on which way your momentum is going.

[Sundown]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

It occurs both when you're down and when you're up. When you're up, just on the cusp of putting the game out of sight, your shooters will start inexplicably missing a ton of WIDE OPEN looks.

I'm okay with momentum affecting some wide open shots. It happens in the NBA. It definitely happens at the college level (just saw my school get trounced where they couldn't make a shot to save their life). The effect could be toned down a little so it's not so regular. An open midrange shot is such a staple that I think it should lean more on individual shooting streaks rather than be so influenced by team momentum. I don't know... I could go both ways as long as it's not so predictable...

But I'm not okay with momentum so drastically affecting open layups and even dunks. And I'm not okay with it happening consistently in every 20 minute game if I make a few slip-ups.

Slumps and team-wide bad shooting due to momentum happens in the NBA, but it doesn't happen like clock work. It doesn't automatically happen every game just because you picked a couple of bad shots, happened to miss a couple open ones by pure luck, and missed a few defensive rotations in a short span.

It could deal with it in 2K11, because it was kind of manageable. It was a bit contrived by still vaguely believable even though you knew better, because you could still play with it and through it. 2K12's is so strong on All-Star and above that it makes the mechanism obvious.

You know what would be awesome? A momentum effect slider. You know what would be even MORE awesome? Momentum effect sliders on different areas of the game: inside shots, outside shots, passing, defense, etc.

I know about the defensive adjustments because I once believed as you do about scripting and cpu cheating and was told specifically by the developers (face to face) that it is the cpu making adjustments to your gameplay.

Did they mention exactly what sort of adjustments the CPU would make, and what you're expected to do to adjust in return? I assume they're strategic adjustments and not "just plays better" adjustments.