Finally figured this game out!

[Mos1ted]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I don't believe that the third quarter runs are the result of the computer "adjusting," because if that were the case, the cpu would send double teams when necessary. I had games where I would light the CPU up with a single player, such as a Ray Allen or Brandon Jennings, for 50+ points, and not one single double team was applied to either player the entire game. If the CPU was adapting like the developers said it was, you would think the CPU would realize that a certain guy is killing them and adjust accordingly.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Stillfeelme,

I don't know about the Flash-like speed bursts. You got me on that one. Youtube doesn't lie huh?

Slava,
You may want to look at the defender's "Play Passing Lanes" tendencies. I think that will have a lot to do with it. You may also want to look at the passer's passing rating. I was really blown away to see so many PG's with ratings below 65.
My understanding of Defensive awareness is that it determines how well a defender plays/brings help defense. I would imagine this will also be affected by your overall team's help defense slider. If your team has a low help defense focus in your coaching profile, a high DEF AWR probably won't impact the game much. I believe OFF AWR is exactly what you said.

Mos1ted,
I can understand why you would feel that way if the cpu doesn't adjust to your player's performance. I have had a much different experience with the cpu doubling Rudy Gay and Zach Randolph all the time.... I notice if I start attacking the rack and getting to the inside shots, the cpu starts to sag into the paint. If Rudy or Mayo start going cold from the outside, it becomes a long night for me on Beale St. I have also noticed that the cpu starts to force me away from hot spots.

Sundown,
If I remember correctly, mostly match ups, defensive settings, and the coaching sliders. I also believe I have seen the cpu also start to use the quick defense options. "Lock Down Paint", Pressure Shooters, etc... I could be totally wrong about this.....

[Bootzilla]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

First off I want to commend everyone for what has to be the most intelligent and thought out thread on this topic.

I expect all video games to be somewhat scripted. Anything that is "programmed" can't be truly "organic". However, the implementation is and has been a bit heavy handed. There is a methodology to stopping runs but, there seems to be only one way to do it. Runs are almost impossible to stop without calling timeouts. Teams won't naturally cool off. Good defense and play calling are not enough to weather a run.

As far as the cpu making adjustments.......... Don't know if I'm really buying that one. If me going cold and the cpu getting ridiculously hot constitute an adjustment well, umm, okay. But, generally there is no tangible proof of any adjustment. Say you're killing a team in the low post. The cpu doesn't necessarily adjust to this. You just start to miss. In most instances I'm anticipating an adjustment (hoping actually) that maybe the cpu will defend the post differently so I can start kicking out to open shooters or hitting cutters but, honestly the cpu just seems to get speed boosts, incredible recovery speed, become hyper aware, super instinctive, and go on unbelievable hot streaks. That's the adjustment.

While of course there are runs in basketball. Sports in general, basketball in particular, is about give and get. Oftentimes you have to give up something to get something else. When the cpu goes on feverish runs they suddenly have the ability to overplay yet never get beat off the dribble, they can play tight off ball defense yet still play the passing lanes, they can double the post yet recover to their man instantly, They can crash the offensive boards yet still defend against the break. In other words they really don't give up anything. On the other hand you know that if you make adjustments you will give up something. Sometimes you'll win for a couple of possessions with your strategy and then the cpu will kill you and force you out of said strategy.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

First off I want to commend everyone for what has to be the most intelligent and thought out thread on this topic.

I expect all video games to be somewhat scripted. Anything that is "programmed" can't be truly "organic". However, the implementation is and has been a bit heavy handed. There is a methodology to stopping runs but, there seems to be only one way to do it. Runs are almost impossible to stop without calling timeouts. Teams won't naturally cool off. Good defense and play calling are not enough to weather a run.

As far as the cpu making adjustments.......... Don't know if I'm really buying that one. If me going cold and the cpu getting ridiculously hot constitute an adjustment well, umm, okay. But, generally there is no tangible proof of any adjustment. Say you're killing a team in the low post. The cpu doesn't necessarily adjust to this. You just start to miss. In most instances I'm anticipating an adjustment (hoping actually) that maybe the cpu will defend the post differently so I can start kicking out to open shooters or hitting cutters but, honestly the cpu just seems to get speed boosts, incredible recovery speed, become hyper aware, super instinctive, and go on unbelievable hot streaks. That's the adjustment.

While of course there are runs in basketball. Sports in general, basketball in particular, is about give and get. Oftentimes you have to give up something to get something else. When the cpu goes on feverish runs they suddenly have the ability to overplay yet never get beat off the dribble, they can play tight off ball defense yet still play the passing lanes, they can double the post yet recover to their man instantly, They can crash the offensive boards yet still defend against the break. In other words they really don't give up anything. On the other hand you know that if you make adjustments you will give up something. Sometimes you'll win for a couple of possessions with your strategy and then the cpu will kill you and force you out of said strategy.

Really good post man.

I typically ask people who play in our online community one simple question when they feel like the game was cheating them. Did you change any coaching sliders at halftime to reflect what you would like to do differently in the second half. Normally, the answer is no. If you can remember College Hoops 2K8, at halftime, you got a scouting report. The "asst. coach" told you what you were doing well and what you could change. You also had the sliders and options to make those adjustments on a dry erase board. If all of the guys who worked on this game are now working on NBA 2K, what makes you think this system isn't in the game? The cpu makes adjustments guys. They have been doing this for a while now. It's called "adaptive AI".

I personally think it is sometimes too strong. If the cpu is on a run and I find a way to score, the cpu immediately calls a timeout to make the adjustment. I think it may be too smart in some ways. We also have the option to make these adjustments during timeouts or simply pause the game and make them which is an unfair advantage for the user. I also think it's pretty stupid that your opponent online can see what adjustments you make during a timeout so you can only make them secretly in the pause menu... booooo...

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I would like to add, maybe you could look to see if the cpu has made adjustments like increasing defensive pressure. You can tell if it has turn the defensive pressure slider up for a team by how tight they are playing your players. If they back off a bit and allow passes, they are using a low defensive pressure setting. All of those sliders work. It is actually amazing how well they work.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

One more thought......

If you have ever played chess, you know that the cpu can't possibly cheat you but on the higher difficult levels you can get a headache trying to figure out how to beat it. The amount of options the cpu has to overcome what you are doing is ridiculous in this game. You have those same options.

Do not mistake me for saying the game doesn't have flaws, because it does...... a lot of them. But, there is more to it under the hood than some of the guys on this site give it credit for. The guys who are responsible for the AI in this game are pretty brilliant and intellectual. I didn't meet one dude there that I felt was simple or cloudy in any way. Sometimes a little stubborn, but still open to feedback and constructive criticism.

[BlakkMajik3000]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

The problem with a lot of the suggestions to combat these "miracle runs" by the cpu is that a lot of them aren't available in My Player mode. Words cannot describe how bad that mode was screwed this year.

The whole momentum thing feels heavily scripted, and it's usually not in your favor. I could tell it was there in 2k11, but it wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is in 2k12.

[I Djm]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

The problem with a lot of the suggestions to combat these "miracle runs" by the cpu is that a lot of them aren't available in My Player mode. Words cannot describe how bad that mode was screwed this year.

The whole momentum thing feels heavily scripted, and it's usually not in your favor. I could tell it was there in 2k11, but it wasn't nearly as pronounced as it is in 2k12.

in my player we are forced to watch it happen. pg goes to the paint one pump fake EVERYONE jumps, i go down do the same ill be lucky to get one to jump. the problem is the cpu actually plays like a team if i beat someone off the dribble they rotate every single time, they box out, they run screens for their shooters, they make post plays all the things a team should do.

all my team does is all go stand in the same spot and when i try to drive they walk into my path and i end up losing the ball off them. they really need to fix the live ball physics the cpu can dribble through me every time joe johnson did a behind the back and the ball went through my leg but i try a in and out i will lose it off their hand or chest.

also they need to fix cpu with magnet fingers its so frustrating seeing the cpu pick up the ball instantly once it hits the floor.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

in my player we are forced to watch it happen. pg goes to the paint one pump fake EVERYONE jumps, i go down do the same ill be lucky to get one to jump. the problem is the cpu actually plays like a team if i beat someone off the dribble they rotate every single time, they box out, they run screens for their shooters, they make post plays all the things a team should do.

all my team does is all go stand in the same spot and when i try to drive they walk into my path and i end up losing the ball off them. they really need to fix the live ball physics the cpu can dribble through me every time joe johnson did a behind the back and the ball went through my leg but i try a in and out i will lose it off their hand or chest.

also they need to fix cpu with magnet fingers its so frustrating seeing the cpu pick up the ball instantly once it hits the floor.

You know, you can go into your setting and turn on plays. That way your team will be in motion and will play more to their tendencies. Apparently, they make it that way so "Little Joey" can be a ball hog if he wants. Running plays can be fun buy most of the time the coach favors the team strengths, not you.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

First off I want to commend everyone for what has to be the most intelligent and thought out thread on this topic.

I expect all video games to be somewhat scripted. Anything that is "programmed" can't be truly "organic". However, the implementation is and has been a bit heavy handed. There is a methodology to stopping runs but, there seems to be only one way to do it. Runs are almost impossible to stop without calling timeouts. Teams won't naturally cool off. Good defense and play calling are not enough to weather a run.

As far as the cpu making adjustments.......... Don't know if I'm really buying that one. If me going cold and the cpu getting ridiculously hot constitute an adjustment well, umm, okay. But, generally there is no tangible proof of any adjustment. Say you're killing a team in the low post. The cpu doesn't necessarily adjust to this. You just start to miss. In most instances I'm anticipating an adjustment (hoping actually) that maybe the cpu will defend the post differently so I can start kicking out to open shooters or hitting cutters but, honestly the cpu just seems to get speed boosts, incredible recovery speed, become hyper aware, super instinctive, and go on unbelievable hot streaks. That's the adjustment.

While of course there are runs in basketball. Sports in general, basketball in particular, is about give and get. Oftentimes you have to give up something to get something else. When the cpu goes on feverish runs they suddenly have the ability to overplay yet never get beat off the dribble, they can play tight off ball defense yet still play the passing lanes, they can double the post yet recover to their man instantly, They can crash the offensive boards yet still defend against the break. In other words they really don't give up anything. On the other hand you know that if you make adjustments you will give up something. Sometimes you'll win for a couple of possessions with your strategy and then the cpu will kill you and force you out of said strategy.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I have experienced this too much. It doesn't matter whether you are playing a bad team or a good team.

[I Djm]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

You know, you can go into your setting and turn on plays. That way your team will be in motion and will play more to their tendencies. Apparently, they make it that way so "Little Joey" can be a ball hog if he wants. Running plays can be fun buy most of the time the coach favors the team strengths, not you.

i do run plays and half the time they never finish it out. i play shooting guard when ever i play point i can run the team like its supposed to be.

[Padgoi]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

First off I want to commend everyone for what has to be the most intelligent and thought out thread on this topic.

I expect all video games to be somewhat scripted. Anything that is "programmed" can't be truly "organic". However, the implementation is and has been a bit heavy handed. There is a methodology to stopping runs but, there seems to be only one way to do it. Runs are almost impossible to stop without calling timeouts. Teams won't naturally cool off. Good defense and play calling are not enough to weather a run.

As far as the cpu making adjustments.......... Don't know if I'm really buying that one. If me going cold and the cpu getting ridiculously hot constitute an adjustment well, umm, okay. But, generally there is no tangible proof of any adjustment. Say you're killing a team in the low post. The cpu doesn't necessarily adjust to this. You just start to miss. In most instances I'm anticipating an adjustment (hoping actually) that maybe the cpu will defend the post differently so I can start kicking out to open shooters or hitting cutters but, honestly the cpu just seems to get speed boosts, incredible recovery speed, become hyper aware, super instinctive, and go on unbelievable hot streaks. That's the adjustment.

While of course there are runs in basketball. Sports in general, basketball in particular, is about give and get. Oftentimes you have to give up something to get something else. When the cpu goes on feverish runs they suddenly have the ability to overplay yet never get beat off the dribble, they can play tight off ball defense yet still play the passing lanes, they can double the post yet recover to their man instantly, They can crash the offensive boards yet still defend against the break. In other words they really don't give up anything. On the other hand you know that if you make adjustments you will give up something. Sometimes you'll win for a couple of possessions with your strategy and then the cpu will kill you and force you out of said strategy.

I admit, on all-star, I wasn't seeing this scripted AI comeback 3rd quarter stuff. I figured, hey, maybe I'm just good. So I upped the difficulty to superstar and boy was I wrong. And the above post sums it up perfectly. The first half was solid, but the 3rd quarter was really a pitiful attempt at demonstrating Adaptive AI and more so just coding rubber band AI into the game. All of a sudden, I couldn't hit a layup and they were hitting contested jumpers. On one possession, I had KG triple-teamed and he still hit the shot!

And it really bugs me when someone asks, "but why would they code this into the game?" They code this into the game to give you the feel of a competitive AI. If you win every game by 20, no one is going to play. So instead of coding it properly, they lazily code rubber band AI to give off the effect of a run when in reality it's just a computer-generated comeback. And I hate to be so blunt, but it really is that cut and dry, especially on the higher levels. The higher levels are supposed to be harder because then AI plays smarter, hits open men, boxes out, and adjusts defensively. It's not supposed to be warping on defense, predetermined rebounding, low percentage shots going in for the CPU and the user not being able to hit a layup!

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I admit, on all-star, I wasn't seeing this scripted AI comeback 3rd quarter stuff. I figured, hey, maybe I'm just good. So I upped the difficulty to superstar and boy was I wrong. And the above post sums it up perfectly. The first half was solid, but the 3rd quarter was really a pitiful attempt at demonstrating Adaptive AI and more so just coding rubber band AI into the game. All of a sudden, I couldn't hit a layup and they were hitting contested jumpers. On one possession, I had KG triple-teamed and he still hit the shot!

And it really bugs me when someone asks, "but why would they code this into the game?" They code this into the game to give you the feel of a competitive AI. If you win every game by 20, no one is going to play. So instead of coding it properly, they lazily code rubber band AI to give off the effect of a run when in reality it's just a computer-generated comeback. And I hate to be so blunt, but it really is that cut and dry, especially on the higher levels. The higher levels are supposed to be harder because then AI plays smarter, hits open men, boxes out, and adjusts defensively. It's not supposed to be warping on defense, predetermined rebounding, low percentage shots going in for the CPU and the user not being able to hit a layup!

I'm the one who said, "Why would they code this into the game?" Forgive me if something I have said bugs you. I have said this before and I will say it again. The game is tuned to All Star. If you change it to the higher difficulty levels, you we get unrealistic gameplay because those levels are designed to provide a challenge, not replicate realism.

[Bballplaya72]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Momentum is surely a factor as well as monitoring when a player hits more than 2 shots consecutively. If you are getting your butt handed to you by the cpu and you finally score, notice how the cpu calls a TO immediately. I believe it is to break any chances of you getting momentum in your favor. My rule is, if the cpu scores 2 to 3 times without me scoring, I need a TO. Problem arrises when you get caught up in the action when you have a big lead and look up and realize the cpu has scored 8 points in a row and has cut your lead to nothing. By then, the cpu has so much momentum, that it's like a runaway frieght train and it's hard to stop.

The problem, is it should not be this way. Momentum needs to be toned down a ton in upcoming releases.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

The problem, is it should not be this way. Momentum needs to be toned down a ton in upcoming releases.

I think it is too much of a factor as well. Agreed. Many could argue that you should be paying attention and if the cpu gains the momentum, it's your own fault not the game's.