Finally figured this game out!

[scoonie05]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I won't answer since you said not to, but I will say this happens the majority of the time. The user has to have a pretty significant head start to not get ran down regardless of the players' speed.

Still I like this game a lot! There are a lot of positives which, make it impossible for me to give up on the game like I sometimes think I should. I'm not sure the positives outweigh the negatives but it's close enough to keep me coming back I guess. I hope future iterations head away from the cheap AI tricks and go toward actual artificial intelligence.

Also glad to see you're a good sport and not some diehard 2K defensive lineman!

Lol, I agree with your post especially the last part.

[eaciv973]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

If you really want to understand 2k12, play College Hoops 2k8 on MOP. Its all about your game plan and execution.

[Sundown]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Speaking of momentum, I think a big step forward in modelling it would be the introduction of new player specific attributes. I'll call it "Composure". Instead of a teamwide momentum shift that nerfs even your best stars, each player should be affected by their performance and the performance of others by varying degrees. This differs from "Consistency" in that Consistency affects shot accuracy, while Composure should affect everything else: defense, rotations, offensive play execution, and maybe passing.

Veterans and certain star players will be ranked higher in Composure. Rookies will be ranked lower.

This way, you can have your all-stars and veterans not completely lose their minds and forget how basketball is played just because the other team is on a run. The hard nosed veterans won't start making terrible passes, playing lax defense, and bricking layups. They will be the stabilizing pieces on a team while your rookies and emotional players will vary more wildly in their non-shooting execution. Team Chemistry, if it doesn't already, should determine how well a team buffers psychologically against a run. Composure fleshes that out by determining how individual players respond overall to that run.

Players like Kobe and Dirk and Jason Kidd will have very high Composure. A 15 point deficient isn't going to phase them that much because they've seen it and come back from it often enough. When in doubt, give the ball to them and have them stabilize the offense and initiate a play without worrying about them checking out or making bad passes. Their less psychologically stalwart teammates might not be so reliable, either in catching passes or making shots. Then with Kobe, you can respond realistically by taking those shots yourself, or with Kidd by threading the needle with his passing and finding a way to keep the offense humming.

Maybe this is what the "Emotion" rating already does, but it's sure not documented that way in the slider menu.

In association it should progress over time unless injury or drastically poorer performance causes a player to lose overall confidence (case study: Andris Biedrins).

I'd even break down the Composure ratings to several categories-- offense, defense, passing, etc. etc. This way you can try to model how individuals perform psychologically in a more nuanced way and what areas certain players fall back to and consider aspects of their game as "home base".

[I Djm]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I have said this before, and I'll say it again. The game is tuned to All Star if you want realism. If you are playing realistically, you will more than likely get a realistic game. Any setting above All Star is designed to give the user a challenge, not realism. If the game is tuned to play the most realistic on All Star, you have to figure that the cpu will have an unrealistic advantage to some degree on Superstar or Hall of Fame.

You know, I really want to say this before we go any further with this thread.......
In my experience, people say they want a realistic experience or simulation but don't want to be held accountable for creating that realism or simulation themselves. Here is what I mean..... I play with the Grizzlies. Rudy Gay shoots about 16 shots a game; 9 from inside 15 ft, 2-3 from behind the arc, and 4-5 from mid range. The most shot attempts Rudy had last year was 25 in an overtime game in which he played 52 minutes. If I were playing realistically with Rudy, he would never attempt more than 20-25 shots in any game. I would attack the basket, post, or drive 9-10 times a game with him average. I wouldn't shoot more than 2-3 three pointers with him a game on average. I wouldn't shoot more than 4-5 mid range shots a game on average. Why did I say all of that? Well, 4-5 mids a game despite that enormous red section on the left side of the court and his 77 mid rating. Only 2-3 three pointers despite the fact that he has an 86 three point rating and almost all of the three point sections are red hot spots for him. Would you do that? Probably not.

If the cpu defenders scouted your players and the AI planned to keep them away from hot spots all game, we would cry unrealistic. If we are playing someone online, will we play to the players' tendencies rather than their strengths? No. Some players have tendencies that don't agree with what works for them. 41% of Rudy's offense comes from Isolations (25%), Posting (10%), and cuts (5.5%). So that means, I would try to only shoot with Rudy 4 times a quarter. I would Isolate him once a quarter and have a pot luck with the rest of the 3 attempts. I would only shoot 1 or 2 threes a half and 2 or 3 mids a half but go to the goal 4 or 5 times a half. ....... wow... that's too much to think about, why can't we just play?

Do we want the game to make us play realistically, or do we want to play realistically? I think we all know the game is designed to replicate the action as close as possible. Heck, the players even are programmed to behave exactly like their real life counter parts based on real NBA scouting data. On top of that, the developers have to make sure that this realism is translated to the gameplay system designed for you and I to experience as much control as we can over basketball processes. The CPU is also restricted to these processes, motion captured animations, and controller functions. When you add all of that together, you still must govern it all with dice rolls based on percentages of success created by calculations principled by real life data. Even something as simply as a speedy PG getting chased down by a slow lanky C and pinned to the backboard are governed by user controller inputs, player ratings, and mathematical calculations. What you are seeing on the screen is a visual representation of these calculations, inputs, and ratings.

I realize that your inputs are based on what you see on the screen but the calculations are still based on chance to create realism. Realism can be defined in 2K as the unpredictable outcome of any series of events. If everything happened just as we predicted, it would be much further from actual realism than the small percentage of events that defy our individual perceptions of realism. This comes back to the age old statement, "It's a video game, not real life." It is a simulation of the atmosphere, TV presentation, coaching chess match, team battles, and one on one wars of basketball and to this date, the best one there has EVER been. Be objective, if there is a 1% chance something can happen, out of 100 times, Conley will get hawked down by Darko and get his layup pinned to the backboard at least once. Sorry that you rolled that 1.

I haven't really looked at Rondo but I know from the past, he had a really high close rating. For 2K, Close is anything within a 15 ft. radius of the basket. What some may consider midrange is really close. Midrange shots are 16 to 23 ft. or from the foul line or baseline hash mark out to the 3pt line. I'm not saying that you don't know that but I'm just putting it out there.

I'm really interested to hear responses to this one.... LOL.... I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm just trying to think and respond logically here....

you didn't offend me at all. sometimes when i play all star stuff just seems too easy the same problems occur but its not as deadly. i thought the whole purpose of the other two levels were to make players play with they are strong at. it seems to work on my team the highest quailty jumper anyone gets is a b while the other team gets A and Bs and are able to knock em down

oh yea and rondo was making them around the three point line. even rubio was draining them and threes on hall of fame of course.

[The Goonibomber]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I have said this before, and I'll say it again. The game is tuned to All Star if you want realism. If you are playing realistically, you will more than likely get a realistic game. Any setting above All Star is designed to give the user a challenge, not realism. If the game is tuned to play the most realistic on All Star, you have to figure that the cpu will have an unrealistic advantage to some degree on Superstar or Hall of Fame.

You know, I really want to say this before we go any further with this thread.......
In my experience, people say they want a realistic experience or simulation but don't want to be held accountable for creating that realism or simulation themselves. Here is what I mean..... I play with the Grizzlies. Rudy Gay shoots about 16 shots a game; 9 from inside 15 ft, 2-3 from behind the arc, and 4-5 from mid range. The most shot attempts Rudy had last year was 25 in an overtime game in which he played 52 minutes. If I were playing realistically with Rudy, he would never attempt more than 20-25 shots in any game. I would attack the basket, post, or drive 9-10 times a game with him average. I wouldn't shoot more than 2-3 three pointers with him a game on average. I wouldn't shoot more than 4-5 mid range shots a game on average. Why did I say all of that? Well, 4-5 mids a game despite that enormous red section on the left side of the court and his 77 mid rating. Only 2-3 three pointers despite the fact that he has an 86 three point rating and almost all of the three point sections are red hot spots for him. Would you do that? Probably not.

If the cpu defenders scouted your players and the AI planned to keep them away from hot spots all game, we would cry unrealistic. If we are playing someone online, will we play to the players' tendencies rather than their strengths? No. Some players have tendencies that don't agree with what works for them. 41% of Rudy's offense comes from Isolations (25%), Posting (10%), and cuts (5.5%). So that means, I would try to only shoot with Rudy 4 times a quarter. I would Isolate him once a quarter and have a pot luck with the rest of the 3 attempts. I would only shoot 1 or 2 threes a half and 2 or 3 mids a half but go to the goal 4 or 5 times a half. ....... wow... that's too much to think about, why can't we just play?

Do we want the game to make us play realistically, or do we want to play realistically? I think we all know the game is designed to replicate the action as close as possible. Heck, the players even are programmed to behave exactly like their real life counter parts based on real NBA scouting data. On top of that, the developers have to make sure that this realism is translated to the gameplay system designed for you and I to experience as much control as we can over basketball processes. The CPU is also restricted to these processes, motion captured animations, and controller functions. When you add all of that together, you still must govern it all with dice rolls based on percentages of success created by calculations principled by real life data. Even something as simply as a speedy PG getting chased down by a slow lanky C and pinned to the backboard are governed by user controller inputs, player ratings, and mathematical calculations. What you are seeing on the screen is a visual representation of these calculations, inputs, and ratings.

I realize that your inputs are based on what you see on the screen but the calculations are still based on chance to create realism. Realism can be defined in 2K as the unpredictable outcome of any series of events. If everything happened just as we predicted, it would be much further from actual realism than the small percentage of events that defy our individual perceptions of realism. This comes back to the age old statement, "It's a video game, not real life." It is a simulation of the atmosphere, TV presentation, coaching chess match, team battles, and one on one wars of basketball and to this date, the best one there has EVER been. Be objective, if there is a 1% chance something can happen, out of 100 times, Conley will get hawked down by Darko and get his layup pinned to the backboard at least once. Sorry that you rolled that 1.

I haven't really looked at Rondo but I know from the past, he had a really high close rating. For 2K, Close is anything within a 15 ft. radius of the basket. What some may consider midrange is really close. Midrange shots are 16 to 23 ft. or from the foul line or baseline hash mark out to the 3pt line. I'm not saying that you don't know that but I'm just putting it out there.

I'm really interested to hear responses to this one.... LOL.... I hope I didn't offend anyone, I'm just trying to think and respond logically here....

Whoa, I gotta start by saying that that is one of the most well thought out comments I've seen on a message board. My friends always want to play on the hardest difficulty, thinking that they're that good. I HATE playing against people with a hall of fame/all madden defense. They don't even have to try. I enjoy being rewarded for crossing over, making nifty passes, and juking out defenders. That simply doesn't happen to a realistic degree on those harder difficulties. If I get stopped by a user controlled defender, then they deserve the credit.

That's kinda off the point you made above. For awhile, I would just try to get good at a few cheap things and score by knowing all the basic controls better than other people. I got bored. I realized that my pinnacle of gaming prowess had passed (Aka I don't have that kind of time anymore). Now when I play, computer or friend, I just try to play realistically. I have this really satisfying feeling beating 'cheesers' or whatever you wanna call uncreative playcalling with real-life nba/nfl strategies. Plus I've had this theory that the CPU 'rewards' me for playing more like they do. Obviously the computer is going to play to the best of their knowledge how to win. If I mimic their tendencies, I feel it gives me an advantage when playing humans. Definitely rings true to your point about the CPU scanning through probabilities.

I think the best player is someone who understands the rating systems of players and takes 'gambles' when they seem likely to occur in the real world, COMBINED with someone who still cheeses enough to throw the opponent out of whack. Just my 2 cents.


Man that was long.

[RumbleStud]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

We all know this game is so cheesy and frustrating this time, and by now, I bet we have all experienced a 30-2 run or a 20 point loss to the Timberwolves. I have one word for this. Momentum. It actually plays a role this year. I advise anyone to call a timeout after the computer scores 6 points consecutively. It slows up the game and cools down the AI on offense. This goes vice versa as well. If you end up scoring 6 points straight, keep attacking! More of your shots fall when the momentum is in your direction. Sure you'll still have the cheese of the over reactive collision system, or when the defense even TOUCHES the ball it'll go flying into the cheap seats. But, the game will go in your direction. Fouls will get called your way, threes will splash and blocks will come to you a lot easier. I've moved up 2 difficulty settings since I got the hang of the tempo of teams and the game. Give me some feedback!

This is true for MyPlayer as well, I can't stress enough how extremely important it is for the user to call the timeouts (especially the 1 or 2 that are called during the 3rd QTR) instead of waiting for the coach to do it. Also if your on a 6-8 point run with the momentum going your way but the cpu scores and you have a TO to spare, call it. Immediately. Like he says above "Keep attacking!". I've also found something interesting and that is when my SG gets subbed out and I wait till I'm in first-person view sitting on the bench THEN and only then do I press A to simulate, the CPU doesn't magically steamroll my team for a 10+ point lead and I get subbed back in with a more manageable score. These 2 points of emphasis have made A HUGE difference to the point where I'm actually enjoying this mode once again. Try it out guys, see for yourself. I play on Allstar/Default with run plays All/Full.

[StB589]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I've worked my way up to Superstar. I played a game earlier today, Knicks/Nuggets. First few minutes of the game was in my favor, Melo was getting to the line but wasn't really connecting on shots but the team picked up the slack. Denver got hot out of NOWHERE....ended the first quarter with them leading 37-23. A month or two ago that would've been game...I managed to make to crazy run in the second by connecting on my shots, playing good defense and using timeouts; got the lead at halftime 58-57. Once you understand the game/tempo, your good to go. Ended up winning 110-108, Melo had 53/5/5.

I will say this though...to agree with one of the posts above, I've seen more realism on All-Star than on any other level so I'll probably drop back down. Knowing that you can hang with the CPU on upper levels lets you know you can play through the rough patches.

[BSmiff]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Been surfing message boards(specifically this one and TheMaddenLab)for quite a while now and realize now and only now that even though these are still just video games, the advances made just since Ive gotten a little more serious about sim gaming are extrordinary. Now with that being said, running around in MyPlayer trying to splash 3s in D Rose's face is probably not the easiest way to win. I conducted a little mini experiment to see just how much my team relied on my output to win over the San Antonio Spurs.

My starting 5:
PG: Adrian Daniels(Me)
SG: Jason Terry
SF: Caron Butler
PF: Dirk
C: Emeka Okafor

Obviously 3 of our 5 are well capable of scoring 20+ on any night 30+ for Terry and Butler and 40+ for Dirk on hot nights. My scoring average for the season is 14.6 which is tied for the lead of the team with Dirk but with 7% fewer FG%, 10% fewer 3pt FG% and nearly 20% less FT%. This indicating Im taking far more shots than he is to get my 14.6 points. So I started the game against the Spurs with my sole objective to do one of the following:

A) Shoot 10 shots or less shooting 70%
or
B) Shoot 15 shots or less shooting 60%

Both above my season average and taking less shots away from the team. Needless to say at the end of the first half we were up 13 hahahaha.

Conclusion: Stop being a ball hog and play within the realm of your offense. If you arent at least 75 OVR, you shouldnt be taking 25 shots a game in the first place. Its all in your head that your team relies on you to win. They probably dont.

As for the magical runs of the 3rd qtr, if they go on a 8-0 run at ANY TIME in the game, a timeout is flying out my back pocket.

[Sovartus]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this picture?



This is one of the reasons I don't think the game is scripted... Wouldn't I have had more Offensive Boards? I'm after all, Zach Randolph has a 97 OFF REB and Gasol has an 89. I would think we would have accidentally gotten one in 48 minutes. There is a differenct between scripted and broken.... The formula doesn't work.... They need a new method because this one isn't yielding realistic results. If it were "scripted" don't you think the script writers would have at least made it believable?

[Sundown]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this picture?


This is one of the reasons I don't think the game is scripted... Wouldn't I have had more Offensive Boards? I'm after all, Zach Randolph has a 97 OFF REB and Gasol has an 89. I would think we would have accidentally gotten one in 48 minutes. There is a differenct between scripted and broken.... The formula doesn't work.... They need a new method because this one isn't yielding realistic results. If it were "scripted" don't you think the script writers would have at least made it believable?

Well, it's just not necessarily scripted in your favor. What feels like scripting is the CPU getting hot and you getting cold at somewhat consistent and predictable junctures. You can get hot but usually it seems like you had to work for it and it wasn't just handed to you in a particular quarter. Maybe there is catch up logic that favors either team when they're down, but it's much more ambivalent about you catching up.

As far as rebounds go specifically, I feel like offense rebounds are almost scripted against you. You need much better positioning than on defense and the ball seems to come out of your fingers so the defense can get the rebound. Maybe it's not a script per se, but the algorithm to determine offense rebounding is weighted heavily against you, as if it thinks player offensive rebounds are just a bad thing unless it's a random putback dunk, and thus the ball doesn't feel particularly live on one end of the court.

Speaking of putbacks, there aren't any putback layups or tip-ins. Has 2K ever had putback tips?

[RedmanR]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I haven't crossed paths with either, the put back lay-up's or tip-in's.

[I Djm]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread. Been surfing message boards(specifically this one and TheMaddenLab)for quite a while now and realize now and only now that even though these are still just video games, the advances made just since Ive gotten a little more serious about sim gaming are extrordinary. Now with that being said, running around in MyPlayer trying to splash 3s in D Rose's face is probably not the easiest way to win. I conducted a little mini experiment to see just how much my team relied on my output to win over the San Antonio Spurs.

My starting 5:
PG: Adrian Daniels(Me)
SG: Jason Terry
SF: Caron Butler
PF: Dirk
C: Emeka Okafor

Obviously 3 of our 5 are well capable of scoring 20+ on any night 30+ for Terry and Butler and 40+ for Dirk on hot nights. My scoring average for the season is 14.6 which is tied for the lead of the team with Dirk but with 7% fewer FG%, 10% fewer 3pt FG% and nearly 20% less FT%. This indicating Im taking far more shots than he is to get my 14.6 points. So I started the game against the Spurs with my sole objective to do one of the following:

A) Shoot 10 shots or less shooting 70%
or
B) Shoot 15 shots or less shooting 60%

Both above my season average and taking less shots away from the team. Needless to say at the end of the first half we were up 13 hahahaha.

Conclusion: Stop being a ball hog and play within the realm of your offense. If you arent at least 75 OVR, you shouldnt be taking 25 shots a game in the first place. Its all in your head that your team relies on you to win. They probably dont.

As for the magical runs of the 3rd qtr, if they go on a 8-0 run at ANY TIME in the game, a timeout is flying out my back pocket.

i swear in my season it doesn't matter if i take a lot of shots. most of the first quarter i want to get my teammates hot but they never do. im with the nets and d will can barley make wide open smart threes, but he has a better chance of chucking one and making it.

paul milsap i try to get going from mid range and posting

i don't quite know how to work thaddius young in

and our center is the 7 footer rookie well somphmore now he can hit jumpers from time to time but they are the worse ones and he gets out rebounded by people smaller than him.

unless i play on allstar i have a shot at winning hall of fame not so much.

[stillfeelme]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this picture?



This is one of the reasons I don't think the game is scripted... Wouldn't I have had more Offensive Boards? I'm after all, Zach Randolph has a 97 OFF REB and Gasol has an 89. I would think we would have accidentally gotten one in 48 minutes. There is a differenct between scripted and broken.... The formula doesn't work.... They need a new method because this one isn't yielding realistic results. If it were "scripted" don't you think the script writers would have at least made it believable?

Sovartus,

The part you are missing is the actual replays of the rebounds. I don't know which team you were but I would guess Memphis. I have had one game that was very similar but a little worse. I shot 43% with the Clippers with more shot attempts around 90 and got zero offensive boards. From the looks of your box score it looks like you hammered the paint and went to the free throw line a lot. You shot good but I would guess your misses were and one attempts because your total shots were low but yiou had that many FT attempts. Concerning bad rebounds vs. good rebounds for the NBA there is not a big difference. Detroit is the worse rebounding team in the league last year 38.6 total rebounds per game and give up 40.7 rebounds. Memphis was 16th and average 41.0 and give up 40.1. So as a team Memphis is not really that much different than Detroit from a rebounding standpoint

What I define as scripting is when you see the CPU go to the same place over and over again exactly where the rebound comes off. It is already predetermined where the ball is going after you release the shot. I have seen Nash come in and jump and get rebounds. Have you seen the ball morph from your hands to the CPU hands when going for a rebound it kind of shifts over to say no you don't get that rebound this is the CPU's lol. I can't help it but I pay attention to it but it was noticable to me. When the CPU crashes the boards with more than one player they all crash the same exact spot sometimes I see three guys at the same spot as the ball goes up and the ball lands right there. When the ball bounces off to the right or left corner the CPU is right there on the corner they knew the ball was going to that spot.

Another problem with the rebounding is the lack of second jumping. Sometimes there is a drawn out contact animation and your guy can't move until it plays out so you can't jump. So you don't get the tips that would be second opportunities. What I see is the guy guarding me reacts fast and gets the rebound.

[thuglife74]

Re: Finally figured this game out!

not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it also depends on the quarter. i've had some truly **** games where it was tied at the beginning of the fourth and for example jordan and ewing would trade baskets for like five possessions straight. that wouldn't happen in the first i don't think.