2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

[The 24th Letter]

It's equally annoying when people say "you can't use them online" or in this and that mode, but they aren't even playing those modes lol....its like their using it as an avenue to continuing complaining honestly. That and "why should I have to use sliders?"

Fact is, no sliders don't fix some issues....but they do bandaid some things...at least try them out..

That said, HECK no I don't want 2k11's man on man D back.....I did go back and play and I couldn't stomach it. Collisions inside are a different story....I'm sorry, it was great in 2k11 besides a funky animation here and there....

[blues rocker]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

It's equally annoying when people say "you can't use them online" or in this and that mode, but they aren't even playing those modes lol....its like their using it as an avenue to continuing complaining honestly. That and "why should I have to use sliders?"

Fact is, no sliders don't fix some issues....but they do bandaid some things...at least try them out..

That said, HECK no I don't want 2k11's man on man D back.....I did go back and play and I couldn't stomach it. Collisions inside are a different story....I'm sorry, it was great in 2k11 besides a funky animation here and there....

i think it's perfectly fine to judge the game based on how it plays online...since this is how a large portion of people play. since sliders cannot be adjusted online, the game should be fair and balanced without having to adjust sliders (and the physics should not be able to be exploited with certain moves which are invincible to contact - such as hop-steps, up-n-unders, and spin moves). it's pretty lame to expect people to just give up playing online. why not challenge the game maker to make a game that functions better without slider adjustements?

in regards to this contact problem sliders are a non-issue anyway - sliders won't correct it. i have both contact sliders cranked high in all of these clips, so clearly sliders aren't going to do a thing to address this.

Playing on-ball defense is possible in NBA 2K12. As an on-ball defender in 2K12 you just have to pick a side to shade a ball handler once he puts the ball on the floor and move backward diagonally during his drive just like in real life. You'll sure enough draw a lot of body contact if done properly. You just can't stand still in front of a driving ball handler and expect to stop all of his forward momentum, or expect to stick to him like a magnet from stationary position to defend against a drive like what takes place in 2K11.

The problem I see in 2K12 is that this method doesn't work in this fashion all the time against a high-rated ball handler who drives to the cup (LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Russell Westbrook and Derrick Rose for a few examples). Granted, these guys are elite ball handlers, but they should still be able to be defended like everyone else to a lesser degree as opposed to being virtually indefensible because of how "slippery" they are in the game. As an on-ball defender I should at least be able to slightly redirect any elite ball handler not named LeBron James toward my help defenders near the hoop while making body contact if I properly shade him to go in the direction I want him to go on his drive to the basket.

Also, any mediocre-rated ball handler who performs any of the hop step moves or spin dribbles directly into defenders standing near the basket would often slide right by like what's shown in some of the examples that those YouTube videos blues rocker uploaded. Now what should happen during the latter scenario whenever a smaller ball handler collides with a player standing his ground near the basket is that the ball handler doing any of these moves should lose his balance (and also lose the basketball in some cases), and possibly get stonewalled too if that ball handler happens to bump into a much bigger and stronger man. Again, maybe not LBJ, but every other ball handler in this scenario should pay the price for suffering impact of that magnitude whenever making contact with a big man standing near the basket.

Both games have their own respective body contact issues, but after extensive play of both games I find that 2K12 is certainly the lesser of two evils. Players actually have difficulty finishing out their play assignments on a routine basis in 2K11. During a called play a cutter moving in the lane would get repeatedly bumped due to over-exaggerated body contact which stops their movement, then that player would casually walk to the corner of the court and consequentially kill the play. It's like the cutters have completely forgotten what they were supposed to do in the first place.

Kruza

my videos aren't really about perimeter contact when playing on-ball defense...these videos are more about the lack of contact on specific interior moves like inside shots, hop-steps, and spins.

the perimeter bumping that occured in 2k11 was a different category. they removed the perimeter bumping from 2k11, but there is still a whole category of problems in 2k12 with these unstoppable interior animations

[blues rocker]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

Fact is, the game will not be able to 100% mirror reality and physics etc. Never. No game will. This game does a good job of finding a balance letting players get to the hoop sometimes and get shut down other times. Sometimes the seams in the game architecture show, as in these videos. It doesn't bother me.

this isn't quite true. They already have physics engines, like the Euphoria engine, which replicate truly realistic contact between solid objects (seen in games like GTA and Backbreaker). it's just that as of now 2k has been unable to implement something like this. hopefully sometime in the next generation 2k will finally implement a real contact physics engine.

[The 24th Letter]

i think it's perfectly fine to judge the game based on how it plays online...since this is how a large portion of people play. since sliders cannot be adjusted online, the game should be fair and balanced without having to adjust sliders (and the physics should not be able to be exploited with certain moves which are invincible to contact - such as hop-steps, up-n-unders, and spin moves). it's pretty lame to expect people to just give up playing online. why not challenge the game maker to make a game that functions better without slider adjustements?

I don't disagree with holding a game accountable for its online play, my issue is using that as a base to shrug off the option of sliders....

If you primarily play offline, what does "you can't change sliders online" have to do with anything? And if you have the attitude of "why should I have to change anything?" , thenI have the attitude of "why do I need to sit here and read about something you can adjust" I'll argue that each and every time.

Like I said, I agree with your OP, but there are some slider adjustments that help, not fix some things. It's absolutely correct that it needs a overhaul....don't get the wrong idea, I completely agree with you....the lack of contact is crazy..

[rangerrick012]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

I don't disagree with holding a game accountable for its online play, my issue is using that as a base to shrug off the option of sliders....

If you primarily play offline, what does "you can't change sliders online" have to do with anything? And if you have the attitude of "why should I have to change anything?" , thenI have the attitude of "why do I need to sit here and read about something you can adjust" I'll argue that each and every time.

Like I said, I agree with your OP, but there are some slider adjustments that help, not fix some things. It's absolutely correct that it needs a overhaul....don't get the wrong idea, I completely agree with you....the lack of contact is crazy..

If you're talking about me, I primarily play online in 2K12, if at all. And yes it is annoying that anytime an issue with the game is brought up I have to see a multitude of 'JUST FIX YOUR SLIDERS!' posts. Yeah I'm ok with sliders and do use them when I play offline, but as you said that doesn't address the issue, only bandaids it.

And as someone who plays mainly online sliders aren't even an option anymore. I don't get where you say I mainly play offline, even if I did it shouldn't make that angle of things any less valid to bring up, since one of 2K's main additions this year was online association, where you can't use sliders and have to deal with things like the CPU skating past you at will.

[mylifeishid]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

I can deal with it when playing against a human, but there is something extremely frustrating about being cheesed by the computer. I work hard at defense and what ends up happening is 18 seconds of affecting the computers' offense, then watching them cross over and drive for any easy score. I've seen them use PG's to push my Center into the paint.

[WTF]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

Played a game earlier that a small guard for the Celtics (can't remember who at the moment) was on a fast break, going up for a layup. I was controlling Paul George who was coming from the weakside to help, jumped at the same time the layup was in process... my arm pit was over the ball, a SURE block. George was slightly pushed aside just enough to get the layup through. The guard morphed away from my defender and made the layup.

It was slightly frustrating. I didn't save it, took a few pics of it. I'll try to post them soon.

[keshunleon]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

The main problem I have is the bumping mechanics period; if a player is running with turbo and the defender collides with him the players will not bump and take 2 or 3 steps back. He will either run them over or bump them to going the same direction.

Most of 2K bumping animations are bad because it should only affect one dribble animation anything more than that is a foul.

The sliding is ridiculous, not to mention 2K's terrible angles around defenders I hate when I beat a defender and he is there later.

[yungsta404]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

GJ getting the videos. This is by far the most frustrating thing about 2k12 I almost broke my disc multiple times cause of this.

[lockdownD]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

Good videos blues rocker!

I can't stand that the contact this year was so dumb downed and that there is so much sliding around on the court. The ability to play good defense that actually makes a difference took a huge step back this year.

[chrome_305]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

What up with all the negative talk? You guys are still scoring 40+ point, collecting 8+ steals and are awarded player of the game.

In some of the videos the sliding makes sense if you take into account the animation that is being played, the position of the player and the basket and the NBA player rating.Lots of thing have to be factored in the equation.

[VDusen04]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

What up with all the negative talk? You guys are still scoring 40+ point, collecting 8+ steals and are awarded player of the game.

In some of the videos the sliding makes sense if you take into account the animation that is being played, the position of the player and the basket and the NBA player rating.Lots of thing have to be factored in the equation.

There's a lot of great things about 2K12. I haven't played it in a week, but when I do, I generally have fun. However, that doesn't mean I find the game to be perfect. Blues Rocker has pointed out two of my biggest issues with NBA 2K12 this past week. I find he's done so in a completely constructive manner. As such, I fully support illustrating what parts of 2K can be improved.

With that said, I do think you're right in saying a lot of things have to be factored into the equation of any given play in 2K12. However, I think the prevailing issue here is the manner with which these variables factor in and play out. In the video I posted earlier, perhaps Sarunas Marciulionis was too quick of a defender to be beaten off the the ball fake and dribble by Rod Strickland. The issue is, his defensive skill should not be represented with a morphing/sliding hybrid ability to mirror the offensive player's moves. This morphing and sliding threatens the user's ability to react based off of the response of a defender. Physics seem to be thrown out the window, taking basketball strategy right with it.

[chrome_305]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

So.... how should 2K fix these issues? I see vidoes are remarks, but no post explain a way to fix the issue.I am not saying you have to be a programmer.I am saying put some ideas on the table.

[stillfeelme]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

So.... how should 2K fix these issues? I see vidoes are remarks, but no post explain a way to fix the issue.I am not saying you have to be a programmer.I am saying put some ideas on the table.

1. The game has to have balance. They can't slide defenders out of the way for getting points scored.

2. Animations need more options and to get the balance right. I find the CPU obeying different contact rules and knowing the specific go to animation too often.

3. Basketball isn't a full contact sport but there is contact in the paint that is not called a foul. The game needs varying level of contact on layups in the paint which would cut down the need to move players or slide players out of contact.

4. Layups need to be faster. They slow down sometimes and slide by you too. Hop steps and spin moves success rates are too high and need contact options

5. They need vicinity layups. You don't shoot the same type of layup when you are a guard going in against the bigs. The degree of difficulty goes up so the shot indicator should go down.


6. Smart jumping. I can have three guys in the paint defending a shot and my defender will jump completely off target missing easy blocks usually sliding right past.


7. Better rotation help defense. The CPU AI teammates are clueless in terms of rotation.

[blues rocker]

Re: 2k's "slip n slide" physics and lack of contact (youtube video included)

So.... how should 2K fix these issues? I see vidoes are remarks, but no post explain a way to fix the issue.I am not saying you have to be a programmer.I am saying put some ideas on the table.

haha...what do you want me to do, copy and paste an exact formula? Basically, if a defender is blocking the ball handler's path, there should be a collision - the defender shouldn't just get nudged aside as if he's on ice...a more realistic and nuanced collision system would help.


it would be a big improvement if hop-step animations and spin animations could be stopped or altered with contact...meaning if a player starts to spin and spins directly into a defender, the defender can create contact and force the spin animation away from the hoop or slow down the spin animation and body up the ball handler. OR, if a player tries to hop step or spin directly into a stationary defender, the ball handler should knock him over and be called for a charge - that would be true contact..as of now the defender just gets slid out of the way - with the current physics system the spin moves and hop-steps make the ball handler act like a bowling ball who can knock aside defenders like bowling pins. this shouldn't be the case.