Are we going to get any Czar videos?

[crosstheriver]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

First, you are acting as if 2k was always transparent. They werent. Every year, there are things that they respond to and things they dont. They are a gaming company. Their goal is to sell games. They arent going to waste precious time needed to market the game before release to talk about the things their game DOESNT have. I'm actually shocked they even talked about Crew this early because all it did was create a day of posts about the lack of Crew and negative responses about Crew not being in the game. That doesnt help sell the game.

Second, you do fall into that "whiny" stereotype. Why? Because you were whining about the lack of exclusive videos and creating theories that because 2k has had sales success, they are now "hiding" things from the public. My point is there is no hiding. The game comes out in 12 days and then its out there. If there are online issues, you will find out in the first week. Significant bugs? Within the first week. Missing features? You will find out within the first day (maybe earlier if people get advance copies). My point is if you think 2k is "hiding" things, why buy the game day 1.

Lastly, I have worked in sales and marketing with a software company. That experience PLUS the multiple conversations I've had with game developers and marketing teams (NBA 2k's team in particular) lets me know what works when it comes to sports games marketing. Your Elite example is a horrible one. Elite failed because of a horrible demo. If the response wasnt so horrible, you would be able to walk into Gamestop right now and buy a copy of Elite 11. If EA was able to hide most of those bugs found in the demo, they wouldve released the game. That wouldntve been the first time EA released a poor quality game and had it sell well (see NBA Live 06 on the 360).

Regarding your "quality comes before marketing" that has nothing to do with the point of this thread (which is to complain about the lack of videos from the Czar) or your original point (complaining about the lack of exclusive access videos). The fact is you have no ****ing idea whether 2k13 is a "quality game" or not because you havent played it. You also have no idea if 2k is hiding anything because you havent played or read anyone's impressions of the game. Its pure speculation and thats all.

I think you completely misunderstand me. But at least you're addressing my points, if not in a somewhat hostile manner.

It is my opinion that 2k has been more transparent in the past. You can disagree, but I believe they were more open about their game in 2011 than in 2012. That is my perception, it may be wrong, but I think there are others who would agree.

Your second point is completely false. I am not whining about anything. I made one sentence referencing exclusiveness videos, and I asked where are they. That is not whining, not by a long shot. So I will ask you again to stop characterizing me with labels that are at best, misunderstandings, and at worst, outright insults. If I want to whine, I wouldn't do it here. I am mature enough and experienced enough to know how to wait for a game. I also know that people who get the game early will get a lot of the info I need out before the release date. That actually has NOTHING to do with my point.

To your last point. Your qualifications would lead me to think you'd agree with me. Instead you're acting as if what I am saying is a non sequitur. It is not. Maybe I chose the wrong topic to post in, but I felt it is somewhat related to 2k's choice to retract Czar's videos. I'll repeat myself again here, I don't need more videos, what I'd like is more transparency. Is that vague? Yes it is. What am I suppose to say more? You're right I don't know what's missing from the game, what its quality is, and what have you. But guess what? 2k knows.

As for my elite point, it isn't a bad one. It speaks directly to what is important in the software industry at large and sports games specifically. The demo was terrible because the game was terrible. The two are not mutually exclusive. If the game was of good quality, then the demo would have been, and then yes, you could go buy it where ever you wanted to.


I don't understand why you're so upset, and why you seem to be mistaking me for someone else. I haven't had bad interactions with you in the past, but your hostility here seems so out of place. Is there a way we can dial this down to a less intense level and just discuss this without you calling me a whiner?

[VDusen04]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

It is unfortunate to hear about Da Czar not being able to roll out his pre-game video releases this year.

Regarding transparency and the release of information and whatnot, I'm conflicted, because on one hand I like receiving information on an upcoming 2K release as early as possible. But on the other hand, I kind of miss the days of pre-release Q & A's where just about everything was thrown out there on the table, regarding both what was and what was not going to be included in the game that particular year. I suppose it could be said there was a little more of a grass roots feel to things back then.

These days, there's still a lot of marketing I'm enjoying. As I said, I like getting early looks at upcoming features, but I'm not as big of a fan of the time-sensitive releases of limited information and the wide spread media outlet pieces. I mean, I do like reading them in many cases, but they tend to feel a little more generalized and informercial-like. I think 2K's following what everyone in their business would agree to be good marketing strategies, but good for business doesn't always mean good for me or you. So in that regard, it's a little bit of a bummer to see more of a move toward "Here's what we'll tell you about our great game" and less of "We think we've got something good, here's the full rundown. Any questions?"

Of course, pre-release campaigns back then weren't perfect either. I feel like they held out on releasing information for a longer period of time. But then once it was go time, I feel like they threw a lot of depth out there, perhaps contrary to approved media releases all mostly touching on the same general aspects that we tend to see today.

[aholbert32]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

I think you completely misunderstand me. But at least you're addressing my points, if not in a somewhat hostile manner.

It is my opinion that 2k has been more transparent in the past. You can disagree, but I believe they were more open about their game in 2011 than in 2012. That is my perception, it may be wrong, but I think there are others who would agree.

Your second point is completely false. I am not whining about anything. I made one sentence referencing exclusiveness videos, and I asked where are they. That is not whining, not by a long shot. So I will ask you again to stop characterizing me with labels that are at best, misunderstandings, and at worst, outright insults. If I want to whine, I wouldn't do it here. I am mature enough and experienced enough to know how to wait for a game. I also know that people who get the game early will get a lot of the info I need out before the release date. That actually has NOTHING to do with my point.

To your last point. Your qualifications would lead me to think you'd agree with me. Instead you're acting as if what I am saying is a non sequitur. It is not. Maybe I chose the wrong topic to post in, but I felt it is somewhat related to 2k's choice to retract Czar's videos. I'll repeat myself again here, I don't need more videos, what I'd like is more transparency. Is that vague? Yes it is. What am I suppose to say more? You're right I don't know what's missing from the game, what its quality is, and what have you. But guess what? 2k knows.

As for my elite point, it isn't a bad one. It speaks directly to what is important in the software industry at large and sports games specifically. The demo was terrible because the game was terrible. The two are not mutually exclusive. If the game was of good quality, then the demo would have been, and then yes, you could go buy it where ever you wanted to.


I don't understand why you're so upset, and why you seem to be mistaking me for someone else. I haven't had bad interactions with you in the past, but your hostility here seems so out of place. Is there a way we can dial this down to a less intense level and just discuss this without you calling me a whiner?

LOL. I'm really not upset at all. I'm not mistaking you for anyone else either. I thought your first post was ridiculous and I said so. Still, you cant have it both ways. You cant say "where are the exclusive videos?" in one post and then say you arent asking for more videos.

I dont actually agree with you at all. You tried to call me out and negate my point by questioning my experience with video game marketing. The problem is I have some experience and actual knowledge to back up my point. My knowledge leads me to completely disagree with you. Transparancy does 2k no good at all. Discussing features your game doesnt have does not help you sell games. You dont use negatives to promote your game. You talk about the things it does have. I dont even need marketing experience to know that....its common sense.

No matter how hard you try your Elite example remains a bad one. There are plenty of games that have good demos and are actually average to bad games. The demo is a small sample of the game. You can package a demo (especially a sports game) where features and controls are limited and hide any known issues with the game. As I said before if the Elite demo was average and not bug filled, the game wouldve been released.

2k sales will drop when they stop producing a good game or if another company makes a better game. Whether 2k is transparent about game issues or missing features, wont effect whether people buy the game...even you. If 2k doesnt release another video, insight or interview...you are going to buy the game, right? If they release a ton of insights, Q&A's and answer every question about the game....you are still gonna buy the game, right? So no matter what they do, they still get your 60 bucks. Thats all that matters,

[Pared]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

It is my opinion that 2k has been more transparent in the past. You can disagree, but I believe they were more open about their game in 2011 than in 2012. That is my perception, it may be wrong, but I think there are others who would agree.

I disagree. Considering this was the first year for the 2k Team-Up program plus the fact they disclosed this in an interview, I would say they've improved if anything.

LD2K is here posting regularly. Ronnie is active as ever. They actually posted their first, live broadcast ever.

The problem with some in this forum is you forget they are still a business. There is no point to marketing all the positives then spending the same effort to market all the negatives. If you believe this, then you don't realize how this works.

And if your issue is "transparency" then hold off and buy the game AFTER your fellow forum members can look-up and tell you if Kobe has his new pair of Nike socks on by default. That's why you're here - to hear from them, not 2k. And if you're here for 2k to market to you, then you're here for all the wrong reasons and will be disappointed time and time again.

[crosstheriver]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

LOL. I'm really not upset at all. I'm not mistaking you for anyone else either. I thought your first post was ridiculous and I said so. Still, you cant have it both ways. You cant say "where are the exclusive videos?" in one post and then say you arent asking for more videos.

I dont actually agree with you at all. You tried to call me out and negate my point by questioning my experience with video game marketing. The problem is I have some experience and actual knowledge to back up my point. My knowledge leads me to completely disagree with you. Transparancy does 2k no good at all. Discussing features your game doesnt have does not help you sell games. You dont use negatives to promote your game. You talk about the things it does have. I dont even need marketing experience to know that....its common sense.

No matter how hard you try your Elite example remains a bad one. There are plenty of games that have good demos and are actually average to bad games. The demo is a small sample of the game. You can package a demo (especially a sports game) where features and controls are limited and hide any known issues with the game. As I said before if the Elite demo was average and not bug filled, the game wouldve been released.

2k sales will drop when they stop producing a good game or if another company makes a better game. Whether 2k is transparent about game issues or missing features, wont effect whether people buy the game...even you. If 2k doesnt release another video, insight or interview...you are going to buy the game, right? If they release a ton of insights, Q&A's and answer every question about the game....you are still gonna buy the game, right? So no matter what they do, they still get your 60 bucks. Thats all that matters,

I feel much better about this post than your previous two, and I am glad you aren't upset.

I was never trying to call you out. I wouldn't dream of it. I was merely trying to make my points in the best way that I can. It seems I am not doing a very good job. The "where are these exclusive videos" isn't a call for more videos. It's a rhetorical question which is to say "2k you nixed Czar's videos, and your excuse was because someone wanted exclusive rights. But that someone is not producing videos. Something is fishy here."

So it's not a case of having my cake and eating it to. But now I see where the misunderstanding is.

As for the nba elite example, I guess we'll have to disagree then. It's pretty clear why that game failed and it's not because the demo. It's because the game was terrible. It isn't possible for the demo to have been decent with no bugs because the whole game was that big of a mess. So your "what-if" scenario falls apart because they two things are not mutually exclusive. No company has ever coded a separate program to act as the demo. they use the same code from the same place. Sure they cut things out, but that's more to my point. It is to be sure EA tried to clean up the demo, and they couldn't because the game quality was that bad.

Transparency can only do no good when you believe that by being transparent, you will lose sales. The only reason you might believe that is because something is wrong with the game. I disagree with this notion and attitude. I believe that by being more open with the game, you give people the benefit of the doubt. And in so doing earns consumer respect. There are countless examples of this. And each one is a huge success in its own right. 2k built a large portion of their success by making great basketball games and then telling people about it. Not going by the EA marketing strategy, which in my opinion, is a relatively new effort on their part and a shift from the way 2k originally did things.

Lastly, I stand by what I said before. If 2k hides things from me, things that matter to me specifically, that make the gameplay experience a bad one for me, then I will no longer be buying the game, unless they can earn my trust back.

What's the quickest way to earn consumer trust? Being transparent.

[crosstheriver]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

I disagree. Considering this was the first year for the 2k Team-Up program plus the fact they disclosed this in an interview, I would say they've improved if anything.

LD2K is here posting regularly. Ronnie is active as ever. They actually posted their first, live broadcast ever.

The problem with some in this forum is you forget they are still a business. There is no point to marketing all the positives then spending the same effort to market all the negatives. If you believe this, then you don't realize how this works.

And if your issue is "transparency" then hold off and buy the game AFTER your fellow forum members can look-up and tell you if Kobe has his new pair of Nike socks on by default. That's why you're here - to hear from them, not 2k. And if you're here for 2k to market to you, then you're here for all the wrong reasons and will be disappointed time and time again.

Don't tell me why I am here. If you'd like to know, ask. But don't assume you know me or my motivations because it's convenient for you to lump me in with other people who aren't remotely like me, aren't nearly as articulate, and certainly wouldn't take the time to address this pointless stereotyping.

It's really difficult to carry on a respectful and polite conversation when you insist on berating me and condescending to me. I apologize for misunderstanding you if that is not your intent, but that is what I am interpreting from you.

[Pared]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

Don't tell me why I am here. If you'd like to know, ask. But don't assume you know me or my motivations because it's convenient for you to lump me in with other people who aren't remotely like me, aren't nearly as articulate, and certainly wouldn't take the time to address this pointless stereotyping.

It's really difficult to carry on a respectful and polite conversation when you insist on berating me and condescending to me. I apologize for misunderstanding you if that is not your intent, but that is what I am interpreting from you.

You did the same thing with aholbert. I don't know you and that doesn't matter, really. For the most part no one knows anyone here, especially someone who just joined this forum.

If you're not here to hear read what your peers have to say, then there really is no point to being in the forum portion of our site and posting. You want to say your points and have no response? There's the blogging feature you may enjoy. You want to have a conversation? Post in the forum and expect others to respond. And you being "articulate" doesn't make your points any more sound.

You continue to ask people to address your points and you respond with some roundabout point that doesn't even touch upon the main content of my post? There's some inconsistency here. I gave you plenty of examples of what 2k has done differently this year and you respond as if the post only spoke about you?

Right.

[crosstheriver]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

You did the same thing with aholbert. I don't know you and that doesn't matter, really. For the most part no one knows anyone here, especially someone who just joined this forum.

If you're not here to hear read what your peers have to say, then there really is no point to being in the forum portion of our site and posting. You want to say your points and have no response? There's the blogging feature you may enjoy. You want to have a conversation? Post in the forum and expect others to respond. And you being "articulate" doesn't make your points any more sound.

You continue to ask people to address your points and you respond with some roundabout point that doesn't even touch upon the main points of my post? There's some inconsistency here. I gave you plenty of examples of what 2k has done differently this year and you respond as if the post only spoke about you?

Right.

How was I doing the same to aholbert? I never called him a whiner. I didn't label him at all. So I don't see it. It's all in writing right above me and it's unedited, so please quote where I did that and I'll apologize and concede.

As for ld2k and ronnie2k being active, that's great, but actually doesn't have anything to do with my position. So there really isn't much to respond to other than it's great they are here, it's great they are active. That doesn't mean they are here to be more transparent.

The teamup thing is the same as the game changers thing in my eyes. They aren't allowed to say certain things, which is counterproductive to being transparent.

Lastly, having a discussion with forum members here, including yourself is precisely why I am here. Not to be labeled and stereotyped. I care about your site, and I care enough not to pollute it. that's why I take the time to think about my responses and do my best to articulate things correctly and positively. I am not here to speak with the devs, although I am aware there is a chance they might read one of my posts, and that is a nice bonus.

[iLLosophy]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

Not going by the EA marketing strategy, which in my opinion, is a relatively new effort on their part and a shift from the way 2k originally did things.

I wanted to respond to you because I have had your same point of view on a lot of this, and guys like Aholbert, Czar, Pared & 23 have called out me and others numerous times and are usually right. At the end of the day, we're suckers to believe that 2k is still the a "mom & pop" brand that cares about everything individuals like you and me think. Their audience has tripled over the past few years, our voices have grown smaller and our votes are less significant. That is just a fact.

Just remember this though - before NBA 2k11, TTWO was not making much money off 2k sports, and some years was actually losing money off of them. All those years TTWO owned 2k sports, they finally got a return on their investment with NBA 2k11. Once NBA 2k11 blew up and had the sales it had, there's no way it can go back to "the way it was." Too many people are invested, too many people are watching. There are shareholders & board of directors every quarter that explicitly want to know how NBA 2k13 is going to sell more than NBA 2k12.

If you're like me, that raises red flag, because longtime vg basketball game players have been down this road before with EA - and we feel like history is about to repeat itself. Eventually - it will. But right now, from everything I seen from footage with the game, we are no where near that point. There were things important to me that were over promised with 2k12, but at this point I'm willing to call it a fluke and move on. However if this becomes a habitual thing, then I will do like AHolbert said, and I won't be pre-ordering 2k14.

[crosstheriver]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

I wanted to respond to you because I have had your same point of view on a lot of this, and guys like Aholbert, Czar, Pared & 23 have called out me and others numerous times and are usually right. At the end of the day, we're suckers to believe that 2k is still the a "mom & pop" brand that cares about everything individuals like you and me think. Their audience has tripled over the past few years, our voices have grown smaller and our votes are less significant. That is just a fact.

Just remember this though - before NBA 2k11, TTWO was not making much money off 2k sports, and some years was actually losing money off of them. All those years TTWO owned 2k sports, they finally got a return on their investment with NBA 2k11. Once NBA 2k11 blew up and had the sales it had, there's no way it can go back to "the way it was." Too many people are invested, too many people are watching. There are shareholders & board of directors every quarter that explicitly want to know how NBA 2k13 is going to sell more than NBA 2k12.

If you're like me, that raises red flag, because longtime vg basketball game players have been down this road before with EA - and we feel like history is about to repeat itself. Eventually - it will. But right now, from everything I seen from footage with the game, we are no where near that point. There were things important to me that were over promised with 2k12, but at this point I'm willing to call it a fluke and move on. However if this becomes a habitual thing, then I will do like AHolbert said, and I won't be pre-ordering 2k14.

I agree with you actually. The reality is exactly what you have said. That doesn't stop me from wanting it to be different, but I am not unrealistic about it.

My main point of contention is it really doesn't have to be this way. 2k doesn't have to do things this way. And you're right, this goes above the devs, above the marketing guys, above anyone we talk to. The guys at the top are choosing these policies for various reasons, some good, some not so good.

I have high hopes for 2k13. I know the 2k devs are a talented bunch, their design goals and attention to detail are top notch and that isn't just empty praise. I mean it. So I don't question whether they can produce a great game. What I question is the policies coming from the top guys and whether we will see a degradation in quality of the series because of it.

[Pared]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

...and I won't be pre-ordering 2k14.

I cannot wait until this actually happens. Some of the complaints are so petty that it makes you wonder how you played basketball games in 2005.

And just because you won't be pre-ordering doesn't mean you won't pick up the game. If guys that really felt like they were getting "shafted" would just stop buying the game and move on, I think everyone would be happier in the end. Less complaining on the forums and more discussions on the game and how it can get better.

[iLLosophy]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

^^^ Are you referring to people in general or me specifically?

[Pared]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

People in general. I'll miss you.

[wheelman990]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

hope not. last year he made it seem like 2k12 was the greatest thing since sliced bread. we know how that turned out.

Some of us did think it was the greatest

[blues rocker]

Re: Are we going to get any Czar videos?

I wanted to respond to you because I have had your same point of view on a lot of this, and guys like Aholbert, Czar, Pared & 23 have called out me and others numerous times and are usually right. At the end of the day, we're suckers to believe that 2k is still the a "mom & pop" brand that cares about everything individuals like you and me think. Their audience has tripled over the past few years, our voices have grown smaller and our votes are less significant. That is just a fact.

Just remember this though - before NBA 2k11, TTWO was not making much money off 2k sports, and some years was actually losing money off of them. All those years TTWO owned 2k sports, they finally got a return on their investment with NBA 2k11. Once NBA 2k11 blew up and had the sales it had, there's no way it can go back to "the way it was." Too many people are invested, too many people are watching. There are shareholders & board of directors every quarter that explicitly want to know how NBA 2k13 is going to sell more than NBA 2k12.

If you're like me, that raises red flag, because longtime vg basketball game players have been down this road before with EA - and we feel like history is about to repeat itself. Eventually - it will. But right now, from everything I seen from footage with the game, we are no where near that point. There were things important to me that were over promised with 2k12, but at this point I'm willing to call it a fluke and move on. However if this becomes a habitual thing, then I will do like AHolbert said, and I won't be pre-ordering 2k14.

i think as long as VC keeps the same people in charge the series is in good hands (Wang, Jones, Boenisch). Consistent leadership with consistent vision leads to a consistently good product. Once the "torch is passed" to new leadership, there's no telling what direction they will take the game in. Hopefully when the usual suspects are ready to hang it up (which hopefully isn't for a long time) they will vet their replacements and they will be worthy successors.

i think 2k12 was just an off year for VC, and i'm looking at it as a fluke unless they prove otherwise. there's no telling what was going on behind the scenes at VC last year...2k12 just didn't feel totally refined and finished to me. maybe they didn't have the same man power or time investment on 2k12 that they usually do...maybe the lockout was a factor. who knows. either way, 2k13 looks like the refined product that we have come to expect from VC.

anyway, sucks there are no Czar videos this year. hopefully he'll have something for us though.